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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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 Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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It would also be a pretty limited biosphere if ysalamiri were the vornskr's only potential prey animal. I expect that there were other prey animals available that weren't hidden (or at least not as well hidden) from the vornskr's senses. Also, IIRC, the ysalamiri could only project the anti-Force effect during a certain stage in their life cycle, during which they were essentially immobilized on the branch of a tree somewhere. We never get much beyond that, but I suspect that the anti-Force field is only something the ysalamiri projects during that portion of its life span, where it has no other protection. Vornskrs hunt the ysalamiri that aren't in that sessile state because the non-sessile ysalamiri are easier to find.
It's also noteworthy that, even with the Force blocked, the vornskr's tracking sense still could pick out Luke enough for him to register as a more tempting target than Mara, and that in the middle of an entire forest of ysalamiri. Why that Force sense would work under those conditions, I don't know, but the NJO series hinted at the idea that each Force using tradition sees a portion of the overall Force, and that some "powers" work when others don't.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
The problem here is that even Luke Skywalker, indisputably the most powerful Jedi in the post-Endor era, was never able to overcome the effects of Ysalamiri, even near decades later during the Hand of Thrawn duology. Even if it could be overcome, if Luke still couldn't do it, no one else would be able to, either. If, on the other hand, it somehow "cancels out" the Force, say by emitting some sort of anti-Force field that nullifies the Force within its area of effect, then relative strength in the Force would be moot, as no one would be able to connect to it anyway.
I picture something along the line of phase cancellation to create a destructive interference effect. |
It could be explained away as something unique to Vornskyr...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | It could be explained away as something unique to Vornskyr... |
That doesn't address my point, though. The vornskr absolutely have some sort of unique ability to sense Force users, even in areas where the Force isn't present / doesn't function, but the focus here is on how ysalamiri do what they do. And while there's little information as to how and what they do, the EU makes it clear that the most powerful Jedi of the era can't overcome it, despite multiple encounters in the span of over a decade. Even if an opposed roll was used to represent this, a realistic stat for a ysalamiri would have to have such a high "skill level" that Luke would have no hope of ever beating it. And if Luke couldn't, then a PC or lesser Jedi certainly wouldn't. So setting up an opposed roll where there's no chance that one side will succeed renders the roll moot, so why bother rolling in the first place.
I've said more than once that I'm opposed to flat-out prohibitions on actions, and prefer putting the Difficulty extremely high on the off chance that the player might get lucky, but there's no evidence to suggest that it's even possible for a Force user to overcome whatever it is that ysalamiri do.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Well most normal folk, can't survive in the vaccum of space, without a suit on, but there's two races i know of who CAN.. Gand and Given. Doesn't mean that if anyone else went out side in space, without a suit on, they could survive with a 'real hard roll' for that long.
Thus not everything HAS to be allowed. There ARE going to be situations/events, that some JUST CANNOT DO..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Well most normal folk, can't survive in the vaccum of space, without a suit on, but there's two races i know of who CAN.. Gand and Given. Doesn't mean that if anyone else went out side in space, without a suit on, they could survive with a 'real hard roll' for that long.
Thus not everything HAS to be allowed. There ARE going to be situations/events, that some JUST CANNOT DO.. |
Are we still talking about ysalamiri or are you off on a tangent about absolute prohibition vs effective prohibition?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
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Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | It would also be a pretty limited biosphere if ysalamiri were the vornskr's only potential prey animal.
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Not to mention that the vornskr are VASTLY over-engineered to catch and eat an animal that spends a good portion of its life attached to a tree. You don't get tiger-sized predators eating tree-clams unless you've had a major environmental collapse.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That doesn't address my point, though. The vornskr absolutely have some sort of unique ability to sense Force users, even in areas where the Force isn't present / doesn't function, but the focus here is on how ysalamiri do what they do. |
It is worth noting that Sturm and Drang were usually NOT aggressive towards Mara when within the aura of Kkard's yslamari, and the wild ones preferred to target Luke, but were perfectly happy to attack Mara while they were travelling. Sturm and Drang also had their tails docked, though, so perhaps their sense was less acute?
I'm increasingly leaning towards "inconsistent application of world-building", myself, but TautaunScout's "They have a force power which overwhelms force users abilities" is a good one. I think KotOR or KotOR2 had a similar power?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | It is worth noting that Sturm and Drang were usually NOT aggressive towards Mara when within the aura of Karrde's yslamari, and the wild ones preferred to target Luke, but were perfectly happy to attack Mara while they were travelling. Sturm and Drang also had their tails docked, though, so perhaps their sense was less acute? |
My working theory insofar as game rules (which wouldn't work with the WEG rules because of their binary classification of Force Sensitivity) is to have vornskr be able to detect a character's Force Attribute. The stronger the Force attribute, the more attractive the "smell", so to speak.
| Quote: | | I'm increasingly leaning towards "inconsistent application of world-building", myself, but TautaunScout's "They have a force power which overwhelms force users abilities" is a good one. I think KotOR or KotOR2 had a similar power? |
The obvious problem there is that classifying what the ysalamiri do as a Force power would require them being able to access and use the Force in order to activate and maintain the effect. A power whose only function is to "mute" the Force would cut the power itself off from the source that maintains it. Also, there's the aspect mentioned above of how an opposed roll is inappropriate.
The more I think about it, the better a fit wave interference is. If it's a natural energy effect, it partially explains the reinforcing effect of having groups of ysalamiri create larger dead zones.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
Are we still talking about ysalamiri or are you off on a tangent about absolute prohibition vs effective prohibition? |
Absolute vs effective prohibition. I used that 'vaccum' example to show that not EVERYONE CAN do everything.. BUT there does exist a few odd ball instances where one or two specific races CAN...
IMO the same applies to Ysillmari.. Their force bubble is so strong it matters not how potent a jedi is, they ain't getting through it.
HOWEVER the Vornskry's have adapted to it, as its how they hunt.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Absolute vs effective prohibition. I used that 'vaccum' example to show that not EVERYONE CAN do everything.. BUT there does exist a few odd ball instances where one or two specific races CAN... |
But humans can survive vacuum for brief periods. Givin and Gands are just better at it. In that instance, a better rule would be to have vacuum inflict damage-per-round to humans and give Gands and Givin a bonus to resist. That's what I did with my Environmental Damage rule system.
| Quote: | IMO the same applies to Ysalamiri.. Their force bubble is so strong it matters not how potent a jedi is, they ain't getting through it.
HOWEVER the Vornskr's have adapted to it, as its how they hunt. |
Which is basically the point I was making here: | CRMcNeill wrote: | | I've said more than once that I'm opposed to flat-out prohibitions on actions, and prefer putting the Difficulty extremely high on the off chance that the player might get lucky, but there's no evidence to suggest that it's even possible for a Force user to overcome whatever it is that ysalamiri do. |
While I am opposed to absolute prohibition of actions under most circumstances, it is appropriate here.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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So, I've finished a Juvenile book since TLC, and have started an adult book.
Both are "High Republic" books, and I'm really enjoying the series. Set about 200 years before the Clone Wars, all the stories are arranged around the opening of Starlight Beacon, a space station on the Outer Rim whose job is to spread "the Light of the Republic"; basically, improving communications, making Republic aid closer, even a Jedi waystation. "Light of the Jedi" was first, and dealt with the "Legacy Run" disaster... a ship in hyperspace getting torn apart in an accident, sending near-light-speed fragments into a number of systems. It introduced the Nihil, a group of violent pirates who have a unique FTL method, letting them move in ways the Republic cannot predict.
A Test of Courage was the YA. A sixteen year old Jedi Knight (noted as being one of the earliest to get knighthood in a long time) is tasked with accompanying a Senator's daughter on a diplomatic mission. The Nihil set off bombs on their transport, and the only survivors are the young knight, a padawan, the senator's daughter, and a diplomat's son, plus the droid of the senator's daughter. For a book aimed at kids, it's not bad, and pretty good Star Wars fare, but also dealing with loss... the diplomat was killed in the explosion, as was the master of the Padawan, while the senator's daughter has some trauma related to alienation from her mother and a past kidnapping. It doesn't wallow in these, but they're handled well, and add depth to the character.
The one I'm working on is "Into the Dark". On their way to Starlight Beacon, four jedi (one Padawan, one Knight, one Master, and one Wayfarer... a Jedi who does not take orders from the Council, but is still a Jedi in good standing) get thrown out of hyperspace into a system undergoing some massive solar flares. They and several other ships make it to an ancient space station. Many of the other ships are pretty combative people (slave-takers, at least), and there's some ancient evil from the dark side floating around. It's Claudia Gray, and I've loved her previous books, and this one is no exception. There's some hints that some characters might not be who they seem, there's an interesting alien that is himself a mystery to the Jedi, there's some event 25 years in the past that the Master and the Wayfarer were involved in... lots of threads and they're woven together interestingly.
I'm likely gonna stay on this High Republic kick for a while. I'm enjoying seeing the Jedi kind of at their best... there's no impending genocide of them (KotOR), no creeping corruption (PT, TCW), no absence (OT, ST, Mandalorian, etc.). Just the Jedi, as a healthy organization, doing their best to be the guardians of peace and justice through the galaxy, working alongside a Republic that wants to do the same. "The Light of the Jedi" had a lot of people saying "We are all the Republic" just as they agreed to pitch in, or, sometimes, sacrifice themselves. In some senses, it's sort of like seeing the Federation from Star Trek operating in the Star Wars Universe... not that everything is perfect, but that it is mostly good in the Republic, and people are working to make it better for their part of the Galaxy.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Darklighter79
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I could be misremembering plot details, but the bubble I was referring to was not the whole planet. Just the bubble around a single Ysalamir, which Thrawn used to prevent the evil Jedi Master clone from using the Force on him. It is a 'personal Force powers immunity' bubble around each Ysalamir. I was referring to the comment that indicated that the Force doesn't flow through Ysalamir. It does and I don't think Zahn was saying it doesn't. |
The reason for the anti-Force bubble around the planet was explained as individual ysalamiri being reinforced by the presence of other ysalamiri. An entire forest full of them was enough to create a large enough anti-Force bubble to encompass the entire planet.
It was never hugely clear in the novels exactly what the ysalamiri did, or how they did it. Per Thrawn on HttE, they "push back the Force", but that could easily just be speculation on his part. He wasn't a Force user, so he had no way to experiment, and it seems from the lead-up that knowledge of ysalamiri and their ability was pretty firmly suppressed, both in the Republic Era and during the Empire, so it's doubtful that there were many scientific papers written about them. "Push back the Force" may have just been Thrawn's tl;dr for the result it achieved, rather than how it actually worked. |
Found out recently:
Star Wars' Controversial Anti-Force Lizards Were the Jedi's Kryptonite
| Quote: | The first printings of Heir to the Empire made the ysalamiri's Force-nullifying powers act in direct counter to canon, describing the creatures as being able to displace the Force. Fans rushed to point out that a lifeforce present in all living beings couldn't be pushed out as the book first described.
The rest of Zahn's trilogy, Dark Force Rising and The Last Command, took steps to clarify how the ysalamiri actually worked in reference to Force-canon by suppressing or dulling the ability to detect or use the Force in a bubble-like radius around the lizard. The 2011 reprint of Heir to the Empire also updates its descriptions of a ysalamir's ability to match. But that's not the only problem the creatures caused the Legends universe. |
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pakman
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:11 am Post subject: |
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While I have not read as many books as others in this thread - of those I have read, my favorites have been the "tales from the ..." - the various collections of short stories featuring characters in a variety of locations and situations.
I like these because to me, they feel like they directly dovetail into rpg gaming - every character in a scene has a story. These books are great examples of those stories - and inspiration for any gm running a game.
As far as full featured "novels" - one of my favorite is Darth Plagueis - as my group ran a clone wars based game once - and the book, besides being a good read - also had a ton of info about the planning and events leading up to the clone wars.
(and thanks Will for the link above about Darth Plagueis).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:47 am Post subject: Of the EU novels, which is your fave top 5 (or trilogies)? |
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Here's a rundown of the EU novels i remember/have access to (based on the stuff in the novel Outcast)..
Now i've not read/seen any of the ones done since Disney bought Lucas out, and turned the EU into legends, and really stopped even looking at the EU ones, after the "legacy of the force" saga happened..
So i will list novels I know of, have or have read.. Starting with Brian Daley's Han solo Trilogy, and their era, and i will TRY To post it in 'chronological order, AS far as i remember them to be.
PS: This list goes roughly UP to the 2006 time frame.. So if something you know of is after that, add it to the list!
Of this list, which are your top 5 novels, or novel groups (trilogies, duologies, quadrologies etc)..
Rise of the Empire era
Brian Daley's Han solo Trilogy (Han at stars end/Revenge/Lost legacy)
L. Neil Smith's Lando trilogy (Mind harp of Sharu, Flame wind of oseon and Star cave of Thon boka)
A.C. Crispin's Han trilogy (Hutt gambit, Paradise snare and Rebel dawn)
Rogue planet
Darth maul shadow hunter
Cloak of Deception
Approaching storm
Shatter point
Cestus Deception
Med star 1 and 2
Labrinth of evil
Outbound flight
Rebellion Era
Splinter of the minds eye
Shadows of the Empire
Bounty hunter wars (mandalorian armor, slave ship and Hard merchandise)
Post endor era
Truce at Bakura
X-wing saga (Wedges gambit/Rogue squadron/Bacta war/Krytos trap/X-wing Isard's Revenge/X-wing Starfighter's of Adumar)
Wraith squadron saga (Wraith squadron, Solo command, Iron fist)
Courtship of Leia
Zahn' Thrawn trilogy (Heir to the empire, Dark force Rising, Last command).
Jedi Academy trilogy (Jedi search, Dark apprentice, champions of the force)
I jedi
Children of the Jedi/Dark saber/Planet of Twilight
Black fleet crisis trilogy (Before the storm, Shield of lies, Tyrants test)
The new republic
Corellian trilogy (Ambush at corellia, Assault at Selonia, Showdown at Center point)
Hand of Thrawn duology (Spectre of the past/Visions of the future)
Survivor's Quest.
NJO saga (too many books to name)
Dark nest Trilogy (Joiner king, Unseen queen, Swarm war).
Well that's it. Those are the ones i know/have/seen/read.
Which Five novels/Groups of novels, are your favorites..
For ME. Surprisingly i would lug ALL of the Wraith/Rogue novels into one. Same of the Thrawn duology and initial thrawn trilogy.
Then its Courtship of leia, Corellian trilogy, and NJO saga..
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