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Ziz
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Joined: 26 Feb 2022
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 Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | ...with the Cartoon series from SW I watch them in a much more casual manner than the movies...
I do not remember the exact episodes or sequences...
Without knowing the exact episode I would have to track down and rewatch all seven seasons...so not in a hurry to find it. |
If you ever want to start going thru Clone Wars on purpose, there's lists out there that put the whole series in proper chronological order. The first two or three seasons have an anthology feel to them, jumping around in the timeline but without putting it in context. After that, it's more or less in order, but there is the odd stray here and there. I haven't checked if D+ or the DVDs use broadcast or chronological order, though.
| Quote: | | In regard to clone ages and appearances, I never actually watched Attack of the Clones in it's entirety and did not like what I did see of it story wise... I had always assumed Bobba Fett was of younger age because that was how Jango Fett wanted the clone, to raise as a son (at least that is what some of the friends I had who saw the film led me to believe). If their were scenes of infant and child clones, then I understand your points. |
That's actually exactly what was explained in AOTC. There was also a couple of shots of Daniel Logan (young Boba in AOTC) as a generic kid clone at a school computer of sorts, digitally multiplied to look like there were a ton of him, of course.
| Quote: | | Regarding Omega - as was established, the entire "Bad Batch" were experimental clones who had undergone genetic tampering. I do not recall her being in the crossover episode of The Clone Wars that introduced Squad 99, nor was she a part of Hunter's unit really. Again, I could be mistaken or mis-remembering. The first time I remember her being introduced as a character was Bad Batch Season 1 episode 1. I had gotten the impression when she was introduced, she, too, was part of ongoing experiments, and had been engineered and created at the age she appears intentionally. |
She was created just for the series and retconned in as another clone experiment that was going on in secret somewhere else in Kamino.
| Quote: | Even if I am correctly remembering an the clones were being "hatched" near maturity - you are still correct that not all would be aging out at the same time. Given the length of the Clone wars, and that multiple batches were produced over a period of years, the empire would still have a surplus of clones for a number of years. As to why this was not handled and addressed better I could only speculate, but perhaps they wanted to focus the story on the fact that with the current batch again out and being regarded more or less as property, and their lack of rights, as well as the lack of a plan to handle or tend to these clones aging out their were serious ramifications involved in the aftermath of creating this subservient army of clones. I feel I could say this better, but the words escape me right now. It is also possible that these issues of multiple batches aging out at different rates were "nuances" that the writers felt would either detract from focus, lessen the significance of the impact they were trying to demonstrate, or simply be lost on younger audiences. As it is some of these episodes are more politics heavy than traditional programs aimed at younger audiances, and risk losing the attention of the kids.
The issues with the biochips, as well as these issues with Clone Rights and clones being property, were addressed in many episodes of Season 6 of the Clone Wars. A lot of this is building and elaborating on material established there. |
Bad Batch has encountered clones of various ages a few times so far. There was even an episode just a couple of weeks ago specifically bringing up the subject of clone rights and the new Empire's responsibility to them as they get phased out, not ironically paralleling real world discussions of how veterans get treated. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| fogger1138 wrote: | | Interesting discussion on doing away with the clones that has crystallized some thoughts of mine. |
I'd be interested in reading those thoughts when you are able to crystallize them into written form.
| Quote: | | I hope they address the change in clone behavior going forward. |
What do you mean? Do you mean what I was referring to, how the suggestion now seems to be that clones are rebelling against or abandoning the Empire en masse? That isn't just a change. It seems to be a reverse course not only from RotS, but also from Disney's TCW s7 and TBB s1 that showed resistance to Order 66 being extremely rare in clones. Don't get your hopes up for them to address it (if they haven't in the episodes I haven't watched yet).
| Quote: | | They show them in the background of the pilot episode of the Bad Batch as well as in at least two others in the first season ("Reunion" and "War-Mantle", both in scenes set at Tipoca City), so I don't think it's likely that Disney has retconned them out. |
So all the child clones were just massacred offscreen. What a waste. Did they show any really young clones that you recall? Has the franchise addressed making new clones after the death of Jango? Clone embryos when he died would physically be 6 years-old by the time of RotS according to the canon timeline. If there weren't any clones younger than that, then perhaps in Canon there were no new clones created after AotC.
| Ziz wrote: | | I haven't checked if D+ or the DVDs use broadcast or chronological order, though. |
Disney+ has them in broadcast order. I'm sure the DVDs do too.
| Quote: | | There was even an episode just a couple of weeks ago specifically bringing up the subject of clone rights and the new Empire's responsibility to them as they get phased out... |
That's the episode we are talking about. I mentioned in my last post I was only up to that episode so far. I still haven't watched any more episodes yet.
| Quote: | | ...not ironically paralleling real world discussions of how veterans get treated. |
Per forum guidelines, let's please not refer to any real world political values in Star Wars. Thank you.
| KageRyu wrote: | | Also, with the Cartoon series from SW I watch them in a much more casual manner than the movies |
So do I. In my last post I was mainly considering the notions stated, shown, and suggested by TBB on the same level as ideas stated by any Joe Q Fanboy about connective continuity between the two Lucas trilogies.
Lucas' concept is that all OT stormtroopers were clones, from multiple hosts to explain their varying heights, voices, and calibers. He told early publishing that stormtroopers were clones, and I have a 70s SW magazine indicating that, but this concept was never important for the OT films so never brought up there. The formalized EU (starting in the early 90s) went a different direction by stating stormtroopers were recruits.
In light of AotC, Lucas was questioned about it and he said that in his mind, other, multiple genetic hosts were used after Jango's death. So according to that, even by RotS there would be batches of very young non-Jango-clones (and still a lot of children Jango-clones growing up). The EU officially retconned after that to give the most truth to all versions by saying that stormtroopers were a mix of clones and recruits, but over time there was continuity indicating a declining number of clones within stormtrooper ranks for various reasons.
Disney Canon's TBB is taking a bold approach by very quickly transitioning the early Empire stormtroopers to non-clones. In my personal SWU (which differs from both canons), I created an early Empire event that almost completely stopped new clone production, but that didn't eliminate all the clones the Empire still had. The premise I was operating under is that the biochip is very effective, unless there were very limited circumstances that altered it. But I am trying to keep an open mind by seriously considering canon's premises.
| Quote: | | I never actually watched Attack of the Clones in it's entirety and did not like what I did see of it story wise... |
Egads! You've got to watch it once, even if you hate it. It has a lot of problems, but there are three awesome action sequences (the Coruscant speeder chase, the Kenobi v Fett battle, and the droid factory sequence). Lucas really is a fantastic action director! And Threepio is forced to hilariously participate in a chaotic ground battle. Those four things alone make AotC worth the price of admission. Sure, you have to sit through a disturbing love story with a lot of cringy acting (Lucas' weakness as a director) along the way, but it's part of your full initiation into the club of epic SW fans.
As Palpatine said, "Do it!" 
| Quote: | | I had always assumed Bobba Fett was of younger age because that was how Jango Fett wanted the clone, to raise as a son (at least that is what some of the friends I had who saw the film led me to believe). If their were scenes of infant and child clones, then I understand your points... I am fairly certain I recall at least once when one of the Kaminoans was speaking about improving the cloning process since the early batches to produced "Fully Mature combat ready clones" much faster and with less chance of failure. |
AotC clearly establishes that clones are grown from embryo, and TCW never mentioned clones who were formed as adults. AotC establishes that the clones were altered from their genetic host (Jango Fett) in only two ways: They were made less independent (thus more accepting of orders), and their aging was accelerated to twice that of a normal human. AotC also establishes that the clone army was ordered 10 years prior (thus about the time of TPM). So the oldest clonetroopers in AotC are all 10 years old (biologically 20). Boba, who is also 10, was stated to be an unaltered clone with no growth acceleration. Jango supposedly raised Boba from infancy. Of course the true purpose of the growth acceleration was so the mechanism of the Jedi Order's destruction occurred on the Sith time table.
Clones being formed as adults is from the EU. The speed of their rapid development was a plot point in The Thrawn Trilogy. You may be thinking of that.
| Quote: | | Regarding Omega - as was established, the entire "Bad Batch" were experimental clones who had undergone genetic tampering... I had gotten the impression when she was introduced, she, too, was part of ongoing experiments, and had been engineered and created at the age she appears intentionally. I never thought they established well enough in the story why she was drawn to Clone Force 99, or why they felt they needed to go rescue her from Kamino having only met her twice and having no real emotional ties. |
I don't really know why, but Omega is my favorite character in Bad Batch.
Omega seems to be older than Clone Force 99 because she said she witnessed their creation, and you would think she would have had to have been at least a few years old to remember that. I guess Omega and Clone Force 99 felt a connection with each other because they were different from all the other clones.
They have hinted that Omega had some special purpose. Maybe Nala Se harvested all of Omega's eggs when she was a fetus?
| Quote: | | The issues with the biochips, as well as these issues with Clone Rights and clones being property, were addressed in many episodes of Season 6 of the Clone Wars. A lot of this is building and elaborating on material established there. It actually makes me think of an old Sci-Fi novel I read, Headlong into the Void by Frank Herbert (yes, that Frank Herbert) - early on in that book as a minor note to establish a little context was the mention of a ruling establishing all clones as property of their creator and not independent, living, sentient beings. Just reading that line back then made me shudder at the ramifications of it...and the story ark here in this part of the SW franchise makes me wonder of the writers are familiar with that work. |
Lucas wrote Luke and Leia referencing "the clone wars" into the ANH screenplay mainly just because it sounded sci-fi. This is the same guy who wrote "binary" to be a moisture vaporator language and "less than 12 parsecs" to sound like a measure of time. During the PT Lucas said he wasn't making any statements about the morality of cloning. He said the only reason "the clone wars" was even a part of the PT was because he wrote that check in the 70s so he had to cash it. TCW and TBB have touched on the issue of clone rights here and there but they haven't ever gotten that deeply into it.
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KageRyu
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Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
| KageRyu wrote: | | Also, with the Cartoon series from SW I watch them in a much more casual manner than the movies |
So do I. In my last post I was mainly considering the notions stated, shown, and suggested by TBB on the same level as ideas stated by any Joe Q Fanboy about connective continuity between the two Lucas trilogies. |
First I want to clarify what I mean by "watching Casually" - I mean I am often not focused on watching in detail and often doing other things at the same time. If watching in a format that permits I may rewind to see something i might have missed of interest - but in general I am not watching as intently nor as invested as other series or movies that I am following or greatly like. For example I am composing this while watching a TV show I am not that invested in - it's on to kill time and because otherwise this house is far to empty and quiet during the small hours when I can not sleep.
@fogger1138 & Ziz, I think it's great no one replied to Whill for days, until after I replied. Then, even though I admitted to no seeing Attack of the Clones, and possibly mis-remmebering as to whether or not Child clones were in the various cartoons and specifically addressing the issue regardless of whether they were or not, you both needed to jump in on how wrong I was and point to exact episodes, but then really did not add anything substantive to the larger topics of the discussion between. Nor have you been back in days to respond to Whill's request for more thoughts.
Even with the inclusion of child clones in the scenes you mention, their existence has not been addressed in any of the story arcs regarding clone right in either The Clone Wars, or the Bad Batch. They have not been shown undergoing military training. They certainly have not been shown being disposed of or repurposed by the empire. All of the discussion of Clone Rights that have been in any of the episodes have focused on the veterans, the current serving clone troopers, and those aging out and what to do with them - nothing at all has been said of clone children or immature clones. There has been no discussion or acknowledgement of their existence really - which is I believe what Whill was addressing - it was certainly what I was addressing. In this regard, Disney+ is dancing around what are clearly uncomfortable subjects, and aside from Omega and young Bobba Fett, has more or less retconned them out, as I stated.
| Whill wrote: | ...
| fogger1138 wrote: | | They show them in the background of the pilot episode of the Bad Batch as well as in at least two others in the first season ("Reunion" and "War-Mantle", both in scenes set at Tipoca City), so I don't think it's likely that Disney has retconned them out. |
So all the child clones were just massacred offscreen. What a waste. Did they show any really young clones that you recall? Has the franchise addressed making new clones after the death of Jango? Clone embryos when he died would physically be 6 years-old by the time of RotS according to the canon timeline. If there weren't any clones younger than that, then perhaps in Canon there were no new clones created after AotC. |
I believe it has been established well enough now through The Clone Wars and The Bad Batch that the clones have an accelerated aging process. So while these clones that were embryonic when Jango was killed may literally be 6 years old at RotS, they likely appear much older physically (though I do not recall if the exact aging rate is ever established...).
It is never said if they were disposed of off screen, and for a variety of reasons I feel it never will be. I feel that trying to discuss the hows and why's of this part of the story arc is inviting playing jump rope with the line regarding possible politics in the forums...a dark and dangerous path these days (I would be happy to share my thought with you Whill through PM if so desired).
I do agree this is a huge hole in the story that should be addressed somehow.
| Whill wrote: |
| Ziz wrote: | | ...not ironically paralleling real world discussions of how veterans get treated. |
Per forum guidelines, let's please not refer to any real world political values in Star Wars. Thank you. |
In Ziz defense, I feel it is somewhat hard to discuss these story arcs without touching on political theories and philosophical discussions. I am trying my best to word my posts carefully to avoid it, but I also agree with his reference.
| Whill wrote: |
Lucas' concept is that all OT stormtroopers were clones, from multiple hosts to explain their varying heights, voices, and calibers. He told early publishing that stormtroopers were clones, and I have a 70s SW magazine indicating that, but this concept was never important for the OT films so never brought up there. The formalized EU (starting in the early 90s) went a different direction by stating stormtroopers were recruits. |
I too remember this being discussed and even altered a few times in the 80s - 90s. That while cloning was "Illegal" there was rumor and suspicion among most that Storm Troopers were mostly clones. I remember there was mention in one source that some troopers were "recruited" from standard imperial military to help hide the fact that so many others were clones and keep the illusion of no more cloning. The one good thing to come out of cleaning this house and sorting through what was left here is that I did find a number of old Starlog magazines from that era... I have not had chance to go through them and have packed them up safely with my RPG archives in storage - but these likely have some of those old interviews and background data.
| Whill wrote: | | Disney Canon's TBB is taking a bold approach by very quickly transitioning the early Empire stormtroopers to non-clones. |
I agree. I feel they are making the transition happen too fast. I have a similar take to your approach for Stormtroopers in my setting.
| Whill wrote: |
| Quote: | | I never actually watched Attack of the Clones in it's entirety and did not like what I did see of it story wise... |
Egads! You've got to watch it once, even if you hate it. It has a lot of problems, but there are three awesome action sequences (the Coruscant speeder chase, the Kenobi v Fett battle, and the droid factory sequence). Lucas really is a fantastic action director! And Threepio is forced to hilariously participate in a chaotic ground battle. Those four things alone make AotC worth the price of admission. Sure, you have to sit through a disturbing love story with a lot of cringy acting (Lucas' weakness as a director) along the way, but it's part of your full initiation into the club of epic SW fans.
As Palpatine said, "Do it!" |
I have to be honest - it is likely never going to happen. I dislike what I have seen of that movie (and it's god awful predecessor). I only saw as much as I did as it was at a social gathering where the host had it playing. I saw two of the action sequences you speak of and was not very moved or impressed by them. I hated the whole droid factory sequence - R2 flying around on rockets in his legs, a battledroid head attached to 3P0's body, lots of unnecessary comedy...I went for a beer run while during it. I also saw the battle with Jango Fett, and really do not remember it much as it did not leave a lasting impression on me. There were other things in this movie I hated, that have already been changed on newer releases of the movie (one I brought up in another thread regarding certain weaponry Slave One had...). The Cringy acting and numerous other issues with the movie insure I have no interest in it at all and never will. Sorry. I only barely like Revenge of the Sith enough to have it in my collection, but I skip any parts that involve Anakin doing much of anything except the final battle with Kennobi.
| Whill wrote: |
Clones being formed as adults is from the EU. The speed of their rapid development was a plot point in The Thrawn Trilogy. You may be thinking of that. |
While I am very familiar with the Thrawn trilogy, no, that is not what I am thinking of. I am certain I saw a scene, animated, with that dialog said somewhere...by the Kaminoan Prime Minister. I cannot recall where, and have neither the means nor desire to search for it.
| Whill wrote: |
Omega seems to be older than Clone Force 99 because she said she witnessed their creation, and you would think she would have had to have been at least a few years old to remember that. I guess Omega and Clone Force 99 felt a connection with each other because they were different from all the other clones.
They have hinted that Omega had some special purpose. Maybe Nala Se harvested all of Omega's eggs when she was a fetus? |
I vaguely remember this "special Purpose" and had meant to mention it in my previous post. It seems like a plot thread that the writers either have forgotten (as there has been no further development on it yet) or are really going for the long game. I am annoyed that Omega's emotional state seems to have regressed and become less mature then in her initial episodes - she seems far more childlike now IMHO.
| Whill wrote: | | Lucas wrote Luke and Leia referencing "the clone wars" into the ANH screenplay mainly just because it sounded sci-fi. This is the same guy who wrote "binary" to be a moisture vaporator language and "less than 12 parsecs" to sound like a measure of time. During the PT Lucas said he wasn't making any statements about the morality of cloning. He said the only reason "the clone wars" was even a part of the PT was because he wrote that check in the 70s so he had to cash it. TCW and TBB have touched on the issue of clone rights here and there but they haven't ever gotten that deeply into it. |
I am aware that Lucas wrote a lot of cringeworthy sci-fi dialect and was even called out on some of it and it was redacted during shooting. This has been in many interviews with the original cast of the OT and Lucas himself. Some versions have changed over the years (mainly Lucas's versions). While it has been established in interviews that Lucas did make some concessions, creatively, during production of the OT he was never happy about it - and he went the opposite direction with the PT, not only resistant to change, but in some places actively doing the opposite of what was suggested. While he never actually admits behaving this way...there are so many cast and crew interviews and discussions regarding one very controversial character who was originally supposed to have died, and many felt should not have been in the film at all - that is everywhere now... I speak of course of Darth Binks...
The notes I provided regarding Frank Herbert's book were merely an interesting correlation.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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This is from AotC. In the tube hallway, you can make out Obi-Wan walking with two Kaminoans. All those little glowing bulbs are supposed to be clone fetuses floating in amniotic goo.
Thanks to Wookieepedia, I also found an image from TBB S1 Ep 1 that shows a close-up of one of these fetus-pods, saving me from a rewatch. This shows that according to TBB, Kamino was still growing new clones from embryos at the time of RotS, but of course this alone doesn't indicate who they are clones of. AotC strongly suggests that a live host is needed for the Kaminoan cloning process ("We keep him here." Jango still lived on Kamino 10 years after the clone army project began). The cartoons may be proceeding from a contrary premise (it wouldn't be the first time), but who knows?
| KageRyu wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | KageRyu wrote: | | Also, with the Cartoon series from SW I watch them in a much more casual manner than the movies |
So do I. In my last post I was mainly considering the notions stated, shown, and suggested by TBB on the same level as ideas stated by any Joe Q Fanboy about connective continuity between the two Lucas trilogies. |
First I want to clarify what I mean by "watching Casually" - I mean I am often not focused on watching in detail and often doing other things at the same time. If watching in a format that permits I may rewind to see something i might have missed of interest - but in general I am not watching as intently nor as invested as other series or movies that I am following or greatly like. |
Thanks for the clarification. This mode of viewing would seem to make it more likely to miss stuff, at least for me. The most I can do at the same time as watching anything is eating.
| Quote: | | @fogger1138 & Ziz, I think it's great no one replied to Whill for days, until after I replied... |
Ouch, that sarcasm is sharp!  In their defense, you replied a little more than 24 hours after my post, and they replied later the same day as your post. Pretty much the norm for things like this. Fogger even said he was crystallizing more thoughts based on the discussion, which I presume refers to both of our posts. And I can sympathize with sometimes only having some quick responses (at first) and then needing more time to contribute to the discussion more meaningfully (if at all). I work during the weekdays so some of my evenings and weekends are busy with other stuff. Sometimes I start an RP post before dinner and don't end up finishing it until a few hours later.
| Quote: | | ...Nor have you been back in days to respond to Whill's request for more thoughts. |
That would always be nice if possible.
| Quote: | | Even with the inclusion of child clones in the scenes you mention, their existence has not been addressed in any of the story arcs regarding clone right in either The Clone Wars, or the Bad Batch. They have not been shown undergoing military training. They certainly have not been shown being disposed of or repurposed by the empire. All of the discussion of Clone Rights that have been in any of the episodes have focused on the veterans, the current serving clone troopers, and those aging out and what to do with them - nothing at all has been said of clone children or immature clones. There has been no discussion or acknowledgement of their existence really - which is I believe what Whill was addressing - it was certainly what I was addressing. |
Confirmed, that was certainly one of my points, because it contradicts one my personal premises that the Empire still used the clones it had out of practicality and desirability, even if the creation of new clones was halted at some point after RotS. I am willing to consider their premises, but so far it just doesn't make sense to me. I just don't see the timeline urgency they are exhibiting to transition to non-clone stormtroopers.
| Quote: | | I believe it has been established well enough now through The Clone Wars and The Bad Batch that the clones have an accelerated aging process... (though I do not recall if the exact aging rate is ever established...) |
Well officially, TCW and TBB are supposed to be based on film continuity. So for the sake of this discussion, let's first establish that it was explicitly stated in AotC that all clones except for Boba have an accelerated growth rate, and that that growth rate is specifically twice normal aging. Any statements made by TCW and TBB about these things are secondary, but they are especially important to this discussion if they have ever contradicted these facts, which is certainly possible.
| Quote: | | So while these clones that were embryonic when Jango was killed may literally be 6 years old at RotS, they likely appear much older physically |
You've got was I was getting at inverted. I have included the official PT timeline for both canons below (years relative to TPM). The Clone War only lasted three years, officially. So what I was saying was that the fetus clones shown in AotC would be three years old and thus would appear to be about six years old at the time of RotS (the end of TCW and beginning of TBB). No fetus or child clones were shown in RotS itself.
0 TPM
10 AotC
13 RotS
The oldest clones are 10 years old in AotC, which corresponds to a physical age of 20; and these same clones would be 13 in RotS, which corresponds to a physical age of 26.
As mentioned above in the thread, the young Boba Fett actor not only portrayed Boba at age 10 but also portrayed accelerated-aging clones at age 5 (appearing 10) who were being shown being mass educated in the clone facility Obi-Wan toured on Kamino. Those clones would have begun life halfway in between the first two PT films, so they would have appeared about 16 years old had they had been shown in RotS.
| Quote: | | Whill wrote: | | Quote: | | ...not ironically paralleling real world discussions of how veterans get treated. |
Per forum guidelines, let's please not refer to any real world political values in Star Wars. Thank you. |
In Ziz defense, I feel it is somewhat hard to discuss these story arcs without touching on political theories and philosophical discussions. I am trying my best to word my posts carefully to avoid it, but I also agree with his reference. |
My statement in blue was also directed at you and everyone, not just him. I agree that the show was scratching the surface real world veteran issues. My dad is a Vietnam vet, and I am very passionate about the treatment of American veterans. However I disagree that it is hard to discuss TBB and Star Wars without referring to these things. We can talk about clone rights, etc. completely within in-universe contexts, without referring to the real world. We can go meta about real world story choices, author motivations, etc., but let's just each skip the part about story choices having real world political motivations. The prohibition of talking about Star Wars having "agendas" was never meant to imply that it doesn't. We just don't talk about it here...
| Quote: | | In this regard, Disney+ is dancing around what are clearly uncomfortable subjects, and aside from Omega and young Bobba Fett, has more or less retconned them out |
It should be somewhat uncomfortable for all empathic adults (even non-parents) to see children being massacred. In the PG-13 RotS, Anakin, shown to become a real dark a-hole, was not even shown to have slaughtered a single child. It was only implied and mentioned in dialogue. For cartoons, seeing characters react to or even hearing dialogue about children clones being killed could be traumatic, so it is understandable why they don't address that part. But that doesn't mean from a continuity perspective they are retconning away the existence of clone children. And if they are, then it would be a retcon between the beginning of TBB s1 and the end of s1. That would be bad continuity even for cartoons (that have contradicted the films, but I am not going there with this). Giving them the benefit of the doubt for continuity, they are just choosing to not address the children massacre for sensitive content decency reasons. Thus, the children were massacred, just off screen.
| Quote: | | It is never said if they were disposed of off screen, and... I feel it never will be. |
You very well may be right.
| Quote: | | I feel that trying to discuss the hows and why's of this part of the story arc is inviting playing jump rope with the line regarding possible politics in the forums...a dark and dangerous path these days (I would be happy to share my thought with you Whill through PM if so desired). |
Thanks for not going all the way there here.
Don't take this personally because it is not just for you: I'm not really interested in hearing anyone's opinions on how any aspect of Star Wars has an agenda. I could agree on there being a political statement but disagree with whether it was good or bad. I could disagree vehemently that there even is was a statement. I could react in disgust at the opinion that something is a political statement – I have been accused of having political slants about issues I don't even feel are political at all. I feel I am being very gracious by extremely limiting myself in the expression of those things here. There are so many possible ways these discussions can go bad so I prefer to not even entertain these privately.
It is actually against the forum guidelines to even state there are political motivations in Star Wars without coming out and stating what those are, which you have already toed the line there. So let's please just move on from that in this discussion. This was about the fictional Empire moving away from using clones relatively quickly in the timeline after Order 66 and this conversation has plenty of things to talk about without referring to real world politics.
| Quote: | | I do agree this is a huge hole in the story that should be addressed somehow. |
It could be a plot hole but I really don't feel that strongly that it be addressed by the show. I'm not that invested in the show or canon timelines to care that much. I'll do my own thing regardless. It could possibly help my appreciation of the show if they address it, but depending on their choices it could also hurt my appreciation of it more than not addressing it.
| Quote: | | I never actually watched Attack of the Clones in it's entirety... I have to be honest - it is likely never going to happen... I only saw as much as I did as it was at a social gathering where the host had it playing. I saw two of the action sequences you speak of... the whole droid factory sequence... a battledroid head attached to 3P0's body ...I went for a beer run while during it. I also saw the battle with Jango Fett... |
The beer store must have been very close because it sounds like you saw most of it. (By the way, the battledroid head on Threepio's body wasn't the funny part; It was Threepio's head on the battledroid body.) AotC is my least favorite of the six Lucas films so I try to focus on the positive, but I officially retract my suggestion that you ever watch it again. I knew you didn't care for the PT but I never would have suggested watching AotC if I thought it would evoke a prequel bash. It is quite amazing that you have so much to say about a film you haven't seen all the way through (which is traumatic to remember) and TV shows you don't fully pay attention to while you watch.
| Quote: | | ...that have already been changed on newer releases of the movie (one I brought up in another thread regarding certain weaponry Slave One had...) |
Do you mean changes between versions of AotC? How would you know about changes to the movie if you only watched it partially once?
I don't know what change you are talking about it. There are no changes to Slave One's weaponry listed in the 'changes to SW films' lists I have read. AotC didn't have very many changes.
I looked but I can't find the Rancor Pit thread you are referring to.
| Quote: | | Whill wrote: | | Clones being formed as adults is from the EU. |
I am certain I saw a scene, animated, with that dialog said somewhere...by the Kaminoan Prime Minister. I cannot recall where, and have neither the means nor desire to search for it. |
Since you watch TBB, I thought you had Disney+. Anyone with Disney+ has the means to watch all seven seasons of TCW. As far as desire, I totally get that. I have no desire to rewatch the entire series, although I do very occasionally rewatch individual episodes.
But even if the Kaminoan Minister had once referred to an alternate method of cloning where clones were full formed as adults like the EU clones, it is well established from the films and many other animated references that the norm of Kaminoan cloning is growing them from embryos who are artificially "birthed" as infants and grow up to adulthood normally, other than rate of aging being doubled. This basis of cloning is very well established with many references.
| Quote: | | Whill wrote: | | They have hinted that Omega had some special purpose. Maybe Nala Se harvested all of Omega's eggs when she was a fetus? |
It seems like a plot thread that the writers either have forgotten (as there has been no further development on it yet) or are really going for the long game. |
I doubt the writers have forgotten about the plot thread. I'm sure it will be a dramatic revelation at some point. They don't have to reveal it until the end of the series, and I haven't heard anything about the series being canceled. Waiting for a dramatic ending to solve mysteries isn't necessarily going for a "long game". It was likely intentional by design to not revel it until near the end of the series, however long that ends up being. Viewers demanding immediate answers to questions are being impatient. I am confident the mystery of her purpose will eventually be revealed, but I am less confident they will ever be able to make sense out of it being repeatedly and emphatically stated that Omega is a pure genetic duplication of Jango Fett.
| Quote: | | I am annoyed that Omega's emotional state seems to have regressed and become less mature then in her initial episodes - she seems far more childlike now IMHO. |
I haven't noticed that. Maybe it is because she is treated as a child by rest of the squad who are actually children in adult bodies. Ironically, she is actually older than the rest of them, so the main difference is that they have more military training and experience.
| Quote: | | While it has been established in interviews that Lucas did make some concessions, creatively, during production of the OT he was never happy about it - and he went the opposite direction with the PT, not only resistant to change, but in some places actively doing the opposite of what was suggested. While he never actually admits behaving this way...there are so many cast and crew interviews and discussions regarding one very controversial character who was originally supposed to have died, and many felt should not have been in the film at all - that is everywhere now... I speak of course of Darth Binks... |
It's hard to believe that Jar Jar hatred is old enough to drink alcohol now. But I can't even take it out to have a beer because I don't drink anymore!
I thought I've heard them all, but it has been so long that I could be forgetting the one that said Lucas was surrounded by people telling him not to do things and the movies were ruined because he didn't listen. You said it yourself. Lucas compromised his visions in the OT and wasn't happy about it. So compromising his visions for the PT would have only made you happier about it, not him. If he later came to regret anything he did, he would only have himself to blame. That's sometimes easier to live with than blaming others.
I thankful I had a much difference experience. Meesa love TPM mooie moooie.
| Quote: | | Whill wrote: | | TCW and TBB have touched on the issue of clone rights here and there but they haven't ever gotten that deeply into it. |
The notes I provided regarding Frank Herbert's book were merely an interesting correlation. |
When Lucas was writing the PT, Dolly was a big issue of the day. Science fact. Sure, it certainly is possible that Star Wars writers could have read that particular book by Frank Herbert, but there have been many other stories that also address the issues surrounding cloning. It's a general issue and the shallow level the SW franchise has waded into wouldn't require Herbert.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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As far as real-world author motivations, here's a new thought. I think there is a chance that the reason they are having Empire abandon clones as stormtroopers is because of the fan response to clones.
Even before TCW, my knee would jerk every time I heard someone refer to the Republic army as the "good guys" in the war, and it jerked a lot. The Jedi were (flawed) good guys. But the Republic was not a good side in the war, and it boggles my mind that so many fans say this. Did they all not see RotS? Both sides of the war were the "bad guys." Both sides were ran by Sith Lords, who were in cahoots with each other to completely manufacture the conflict toward a purpose that had little to do with sector rights and federalism. There were no good sides in the war. Clones were manufactured and programmed to fight for whomever they were programmed to fight for. They destroyed the Jedi Order on command. The Republic transformed into the Empire like Palpatine's face transformed, but Palpatine was evil before he looked evil. So the clones were amoral but ultimately commanded by the greatest evil being in the galaxy. The clones were not "good guys." Clones blindly murdered their direct superiors without hesitation.
But three years after Lucas concluded his film saga he had failed to develop the technology to cheaply produce a live action TV series so instead created an animated TV series that went back into the Clone War. He had some ideas for it that contradicted the film series, including the idea to humanize and individualize the clones (probably because he thought it would be interesting at the time and he had to do something new), which made clones into the fan-beloved characters to this day.
Maybe Disney having many of the clones soon going awol from the Empire who responds by massacring many of them and destroying the facilities where they are made is mainly for the sake of fans who see clones as good (as opposed to the always-villainous Empire). The quick transition from clone stormtroopers to non-clones still doesn't make sense in-universe.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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ATM I'm caught up on TBB.
| Quote: | | CROSSHAIR (looking at stormtrooper helmet in the snow): It's not clone trooper gear. |
Clones are humans. There were many different variations of armor used by clonetroopers. How could he just look at a helmet and know it wasn't made for clones? Yes, he has seen some of the new non-clone stormtroopers and he has seen the new armor, but what specifically about the armor makes it apparent is is not designed for clones?
Are the non-clones given new armor to specifically differentiate who is and isn't a clone for their superiors, and Crosshair has already observed that? If so, he didn't come to the conclusion that the Empire is the enemy until before he did? And if so, that would be a very expensive thing for the Empire to do when they are just going to kill off all the clones anyway.
Even ignoring the films, this just doesn't make sense even within the context of all the canon animated shows. This seems very meta, something authors know and fans know (different armor), so it comes across as bad writing.
| Quote: | | MAYDAY (picks up armor chest plate): Right... New toys for their shine new military, and we get the scraps. |
LOL, he didn't get scraps. I don't know what makes him think the 70s-looking stormtrooper armor is any better than his clonetrooper armor. That armor is at most equal to and possibly even worse than his armor!
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pakman
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:22 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I am really loving the world building/evolving aspect of the bad batch.
Showing the changes of the clones, the mechaniations of the emperor (that episode was well done - shows his planning and manipulations very well).
For me - it is more than personal star wars enjoyment - but our star wars game is set at about 10 years after order 66, and this gives me a lot of info about the clones being phased out - and their feelings etc.
The party is all surviving jedi post order 66 (long story - their choice, and I figured out how to make it work) and they are only now (again long story) interacting with the old retired clone troopers.
I am very lucky to have such a great group of players into role playing - as their meet up with some ex-clone troopers (one a mercenary now, the other is a clerk in a tourist shop - another with bad ptsd - is homeless in an ally....) has been some really great moments - one very poignant part as a clone (with chip removed) breaking down saying they murdered the jedi - their leaders and friends - and they murdered them.
The tone and dialogue was inspired by the scenes in the bad batch - and has been really helpful to the game.
Of course, one of my players - he even one upped this - by having his character forgive the clone.
In over 20 years of star wars gaming with tons of laughs, battles and adventure - this was one of the best moments of our gaming history.
so for us - the emotional impact on the clones of ...well...everything .... has been a great inspiration for our game.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:46 am Post subject: |
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I just finished the fisrt three episodes of Bad Batch Season 3 today. And of course Omega is the topic of theories and speculation.
it seem that many belive that we are going to find out that she is force sensitive and I belive so too.
I do however have a little theory of my own with her not being force sensitive but still posessing the unique qualities needed to be a possible "vessel" for palpatine's project necromancer that i suspect is a wider plan he has to be the sith-ari, and all theat we see come exagol in the prequals, him returning as THE sith.
In the prequals we learned that Rey's father was a non force sensitive clone, but a sucessful one.
Now could this mean that there were some unique properties needed to make not a sucessful clone, but one that would be "vessel" for the force to pass through and into a child.
I think there is a possiblity that Omega is "only enhanced" but her qualites and blood is what could make the "right clones" for old Palpy to use in necromancer |
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fogger1138
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| Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I liked that we saw some of those child clones we were talking about a year ago. |
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Forceally
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:04 am Post subject: |
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I know about the spoiler policy here, but what I'm about to post isn't really a spoiler, since it's more or less common sense combined with established history from Legends continuity.
I've been reading various articles from ScreenRant and CBR about the Bad Batch and the connections they're making to The Rise of Skywalker. The clones of Palpatine and M-count/midichlorian count. To be honest, I'm not that spoiled by it, nor am I spoiled by the underlying story for the third season. Why? For one reason - the location of the facility. Tantiss. As in Mount Tantiss on Wayland, which I'm assuming is the name of the planet where the facility is located. In Zahn's Legends Thrawn Trilogy, that's where Palpatine kept a facility of Spaarti cylinders for cloning. That's where Thrawn made his clone forces to man the Katana Fleet dreadnaughts he had acquired. The moment I heard the name of the facility, I knew it had to be connected to Palpatine's desire to clone himself - a central story idea brought into Canon from Legends Dark Empire comic trilogy. Add into that we have the Kaminoans there, and there's not much of a surprise there.
To me, any spoilers/surprises this season lie in the details. Apparently using the clones to further Palpatine's goals of cloning himself. The reappearance/resurrecetion of Asajj Ventress. Those spoilers have been revealed. The Tantiss facility in Legends was where they cloned Jorus C'Baoth, creating Joruus C'Baoth. Could they be looking to do that in this series? That's one potential mystery, and they haven't said anything yet about that. Will that happen? Who knows?
As for how the series ends, I have a general idea, as it's implied by the impression we got in the preview scenes. It's the specific details that are somewhat a mystery, and I'll wait to see how they're presented. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: The Bad Batch [Spoilers Allowed] |
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| Forceally wrote: | | I know about the spoiler policy here, but what I'm about to post isn't really a spoiler, since it's more or less common sense combined with established history from Legends continuity... |
You are posting in is a 'spoilers allowed' thread anyway, so you are safe here.
Sorry. I totally spaced on BB S3 even starting. I'll bump the spoiler policy thread.
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Forceally
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| Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: The Bad Batch [Spoilers Allowed] |
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| Whill wrote: | | Forceally wrote: | | I know about the spoiler policy here, but what I'm about to post isn't really a spoiler, since it's more or less common sense combined with established history from Legends continuity... |
You are posting in is a 'spoilers allowed' thread anyway, so you are safe here.
Sorry. I totally spaced on BB S3 even starting. I'll bump the spoiler policy thread. |
Better safe than sorry. |
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