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Telsij
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 Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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SPOILERS FOR MANDALORIAN SEASON 2!
There might be some official/canon aid in your search, Whill, once Pablo Hidalgo's Mandalorian Visual Guide is released in July.
"Doctor Mandible" and his species seems to have six limbs, with the upper four used more like arms and the lower two like "legs."
As with Frog Lady's "Frog" species (for whom I've worked up some stats but am hanging back on posting until July in case I'll have to do some major tweaks to align with canon), I hope they give Dr. Mandible's species a name and additional background/ability info.
While I'm personally hoping Frog Lady's species becomes Rybet 2.0, Dr. Mandible's species might eventually fit the bill for you (at least visually) if they wind up being entirely new.
That said, it seems like you've already found a good solution with the Verinex and using the fluff from the Shirren as inspiration!
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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I was really happy to see Dr. Mandible playing cards in that episode. One downside to that being the visual basis for the PC species is that there are no full body images of Dr. Mandible, which are really important to me if a player is supposed to look at an image and imagining themselves playing one. Also, from what we can see, he looks a little too buggy/creepy than I was going for (a balance between insect and humanoid). Dr. Mandible is of a great species to exist in my SWU and appear as NPCs, but not idea for the PC species purposes.
The D&D image in this thread's OP is still the best visual that I've seen to base the PC species on, and concept-wise I'm pretty well off now. But I really do appreciate hearing from you, and I am always open to hearing suggestions and ideas. Thank you!
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 2:20 am Post subject: |
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I just saw this thread now while looking for a different older thread. I take it you never found a suitable image? I can see if I can give you some choices if I have time (trying to get my Graphic Arts machine up and running, and need to do some works to get the kinks out). From what I have read you want something mostly humanoid, insect like, but with 4 arms? I love insect aliens, so I will see what I can come up with.
Threadcromancy +1
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:12 am Post subject: |
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Why do so many aliens wear rags in artwork? It looks stupid.
| KageRyu wrote: | | I just saw this thread now while looking for a different older thread. I take it you never found a suitable image? |
I'm happy with something similar to the OP image but I still don't have a good StarWars-looking version. You know, with no melee weapons or throwing stars, and with clothes (shirt and pants, but no boots or shoes).
| KageRyu wrote: | | I can see if I can give you some choices if I have time (trying to get my Graphic Arts machine up and running, and need to do some works to get the kinks out). From what I have read you want something mostly humanoid, insect like, but with 4 arms? I love insect aliens, so I will see what I can come up with. |
Exactly! Humanoid shaped (except 4-armed), but an insect head, hands, and feet along the lines of the OP. Cool!
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fogger1138
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | Why do so many aliens wear rags in artwork? It looks stupid.
| KageRyu wrote: | | I just saw this thread now while looking for a different older thread. I take it you never found a suitable image? |
I'm happy with something similar to the OP image but I still don't have a good StarWars-looking version. You know, with no melee weapons or throwing stars, and with clothes (shirt and pants, but no boots or shoes).
| KageRyu wrote: | | I can see if I can give you some choices if I have time (trying to get my Graphic Arts machine up and running, and need to do some works to get the kinks out). From what I have read you want something mostly humanoid, insect like, but with 4 arms? I love insect aliens, so I will see what I can come up with. |
Exactly! Humanoid shaped (except 4-armed), but an insect head, hands, and feet along the lines of the OP. Cool! |
Here's a kind-of out-of-left-field suggestion: have you tried playing with Hero Forge? You could make your own...
https://www.heroforge.com/load_config%3D508612803/
My players will often use this for character visualization. It's not designed for Star Wars by any stretch, and there's a surprising amount of options that work regardless. |
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pakman
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: 4-armed humanoid Insect PC species |
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Just found this thread..... (well, just read it).
I love the verpine - have one as a main npc in our current adventure- and he (it?) is a ton of fun interacting with the party .... try to play him with a very unique personality.
On the four arm thing - I am fine with two, but I think a 4 armed version would be cool as well (might make related).
Anyway, as there is already a 4 armed character in our party, I thought I would share my thoughts on 4 arms...
My house rules really tame in a lot of species bonuses - players are strongly encouraged to pick based on story and other factors..... so my benefits for four arms might be less than others....
| Quote: | As mentioned in this thread, instead of giving them extra unMAPped actions, how about letting them do more than one action simultaneously, but still with normal MAPs based on the total number of actions?
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This is very close to how I do it. Yes, you can wield more weapons - but they still incur all maps - the advantage is being able to use more in a single action segment. That keeps it from getting out of control.
I do however, give a bonus to climbing and brawling. If the player thinks there are other situations (like repairing big things - where more hands could help) I give a small bonus on those.
(or medical stuff - love the scene in andor with the 4 armed doc).
as a drawback - sometimes finding gear that fits four arms takes longer - and of course, it makes him more identifiable "yeah, the guy with the four arms - he was with the rebels!!!".
Oh, and while not perfect - the hero forge character creator is awesome.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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@fogger1138, That's a pretty cool site, thanks for sharing.
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hero Forge is awesome. Adding paint colors is a relatively new thing for Hero Forge; when I bought my miniatures for a Pathfinder game I was in a few years ago, they didn't have the option to come pre-painted. Ah, well, I still had alot of fun using those miniatures in those tournament Pathfinder games.
Now I have to see if I can make a Star Wars-esque miniature for my Star Wars smuggler character...
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: 4-armed humanoid Insect PC species |
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| pakman wrote: |
This is very close to how I do it. Yes, you can wield more weapons - but they still incur all maps - the advantage is being able to use more in a single action segment. That keeps it from getting out of control. |
SO if one was to shoot three times, move twice (five actions, -4d from his skills for MAPS), since he could have a blaster in each hand, he would get ALL three shots on his first activation in the initiative order, along with his FIRST of his declared two moves?
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| fogger1138 wrote: | Here's a kind-of out-of-left-field suggestion: have you tried playing with Hero Forge? You could make your own...
https://www.heroforge.com/load_config%3D508612803/
My players will often use this for character visualization. It's not designed for Star Wars by any stretch, and there's a surprising amount of options that work regardless. |
Thanks for sharing that. I had no experience with it, other than that or something like it blowing up on the SW D6 Fb group (a few users suddenly started spamming the group with Star Wars character mini images). We created a separate group for them to do that in. I don't follow that group.
I just fiddled around with the guy you shared. He is a pretty neat looking insect alien, but the hands are too big and clunky-looking for a species with a very high manual dexterity. I take it that you can order your creations, and they are 3D printed, painted and shipped to you? I imagine that bigger hands with fewer fingers is less fine detail so probably easier to produce in mini form. I might fiddle around with Hero Forge more at some point for so other alien ideas I have, but I am fine with a good 2D image for the Verinex species.
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pakman
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 12:20 am Post subject: Re: 4-armed humanoid Insect PC species |
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| garhkal wrote: | | pakman wrote: |
This is very close to how I do it. Yes, you can wield more weapons - but they still incur all maps - the advantage is being able to use more in a single action segment. That keeps it from getting out of control. |
SO if one was to shoot three times, move twice (five actions, -4d from his skills for MAPS), since he could have a blaster in each hand, he would get ALL three shots on his first activation in the initiative order, along with his FIRST of his declared two moves? |
Multiple weapons are already covered under combat options (reup page 97) - already can be the same time same round.
They would already get two shots at the same action step with any dual fisted scoundrel - So, yeah, a third, they are still getting map, so yes.
Players who are usually hoping for something free - when they find out there is still a multi-action penalty - this kills off most min-maxing in my experience.
However, on the move - unless it is a free action, character's cannot move and shoot at the same action step - unless I am missing something somewhere in the rules. I suspect this might be a house rule, as by raw in 2.5 a character cannot move twice (they can move once, at 2x speed, and some gm's I could conceivably break this into two action steps - I did this in a previous version of house rules, before I simplified it even more - but that is a different topic....).
In over a year+ of play - and many combats - our four armed character has never used more than one weapon. He thinks that once he gets his lightsaber, it might be cool to hold a blaster and his LS (he is a post-order 66 jedi) but so far, I think maybe - he had a blaster and a pair of macro binoculars out at one time. He likes it for the versatility - he said the other day he could have a blaster in one hand, and a stunner in the other, etc.
If some gm's thought it was being abused, they could add an off hand penalty to two of the arms - but that gets a bit crunchy for some folks.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 3:25 am Post subject: Re: 4-armed humanoid Insect PC species |
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| pakman wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | pakman wrote: | | Yes, you can wield more weapons - but they still incur all maps - the advantage is being able to use more in a single action segment. That keeps it from getting out of control. |
SO if one was to shoot three times, move twice (five actions, -4d from his skills for MAPS), since he could have a blaster in each hand, he would get ALL three shots on his first activation in the initiative order, along with his FIRST of his declared two moves? |
Multiple weapons are already covered under combat options (reup page 97) - already can be the same time same round.
They would already get two shots at the same action step with any dual fisted scoundrel - So, yeah, a third, they are still getting map, so yes.
Players who are usually hoping for something free - when they find out there is still a multi-action penalty - this kills off most min-maxing in my experience.
...
In over a year+ of play - and many combats - our four armed character has never used more than one weapon. He thinks that once he gets his lightsaber, it might be cool to hold a blaster and his LS (he is a post-order 66 jedi) but so far, I think maybe - he had a blaster and a pair of macro binoculars out at one time. He likes it for the versatility - he said the other day he could have a blaster in one hand, and a stunner in the other, etc.
If some gm's thought it was being abused, they could add an off hand penalty to two of the arms - but that gets a bit crunchy for some folks. |
This is confusing because you are talking about something you can do in house rules and something else you can't do in RAW in the same post without fully delineating.
The "Multiple Weapons" rule you refer to on REUP p.97 (pdf p.99), and most of that entire section of the combat chapter, does not exist in R&E. The REUP combat chapter adds a lot from RoE so I doublechecked that book too: This rule doesn't exist there either. To my knowledge, that REUP Multiple Weapons rules does not exist in RAW at all, which would make it a house rule. (If it does exist as an optional rule somewhere in RAW, please cite the source by book and page number.)
IMO, it's a bad rule for all character to have access to. This rule allows all two-handed characters to take two actions on their turn of each action segment. Even with MAPs applying normally, this betrays the fundamental intention of RAW's ordering actions by initiative, where every single action in the round takes place a split second after the previous action and a split second before the next action. This is also a poor interpretation of the films because you almost never see a character using two one-handed weapons simultaneously.
I feel a character being able to do two actions on their turn in a round (of course still with normal MAPs) best remains the realm of special abilities of some aliens with four or more arms, what this thread was actually talking about.
As far as handedness, that is not RAW either but I still choose a compromise between the full-on cinematic reality of it not existing at all and the deeply penalizing factor it realistically is for most people. I have a simple -1D penalty for off-handed actions. I don't feel this is too crunchy, and it honors the realities of the films which rarely portrays ambidextrous characters. Most all film characters behave as one-handed (because they are played by one-handed actors). My concept for the special ability of four-handed characters to be able to do simultaneous actions includes having more than one dominant hand as well. I have Ambidexterity as one of a short list of Advantages available to purchase in char gen, but it doesn't give any bonuses. All it does is eliminate the off-hand penalty. Not crunchy at all. It still doesn't give action simultaneity.
See my stats for Ardennians for the action simultaneity concept. The Verinex species will have something similar, but since they don't have hands for feet it won't be exactly the same. I'm thinking the top two hands are dominant, and the bottom two hands are off-hands.
| pakman wrote: | | However, on the move - unless it is a free action, character's cannot move and shoot at the same action step - unless I am missing something somewhere in the rules. I suspect this might be a house rule, as by raw in 2.5 a character cannot move twice (they can move once, at 2x speed, and some gm's I could conceivably break this into two action steps - I did this in a previous version of house rules, before I simplified it even more - but that is a different topic....). |
I don't think garhkal was suggesting a house rule. I think he was just asking a question about your house rules. You seem to be saying that you only have two actions per character turn for two-handed characters with a weapon in each hand who choose to do so, and it does not apply to movement actions like in his question. If so your answer seems clear on that.
You are correct about movement in R&E. All characters can only move once in a round at a speed they choose when they declare/roll it, and all movement takes place within the space of one action. That last part is extremely unrealistic to the point of absurdity in some situations, but it was a simplification from Blue Vader which had each constant-speed "move" be its own action, at the cost of being nickeled-and-dimed with MAPs and dice rolls (the more MAPs and rolls the faster you wanted to go).
My house rule solution to the movement conundrum was to indeed allow single-action movements to be spread out over the course of the round with other actions possibly occurring during the movements, if it makes sense that the other actions could be done during them (such as shooting while running, which Han did on the Death Star). So I do violate RAW for non-movement actions simultaneous with a movement action, but the non-movement actions are still one per turn, unless the character has a species special ability that allows them.
But indeed, action simultaneity with movement is whole other topic.
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pakman
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Whill you are indeed correct that the multiple-weapon rule is not in the R&E book - I checked.
The source (unless buried in a star wars book like spec forces or some gear book - there are tons) is more than likely later versions of d6 (space, adventure, etc.). Just like reup got background options from space, they got a few other things too it appears (d6 space, p82).
So, interestingly enough - we almost have this new classification - what do we call house rules in the incredibly popular reup - especially considering many might not even know they are house rules. But that is perhaps left to a different topic.
I also agree that movement is a whole another topic.
Regardless, not once has any of my players picked up more than one weapon, four arms or two. So, as of this point - it is not breaking my game.
Of course, mostly, my players are not min-maxers..... mostly.
however - the Codru-Ji pc in my game does get hassled by attentive guards when he is trying to hide his arms in his jacket..... (they were involved in a public firefight and the security APB later said "group of aliens, one blue and one with four arms....). The pc's made some good social skill rolls to con the guards "We heard it was a BLUE four armed alien....". The blue one was our rodian. He has a hoodie now...
Back to the verpine.
We played this past friday, and our verpine NPC was still a ton of fun - the party has a lot of fun with this quirky character - besides their obviously different social perspectives (hive group, etc.) - given their spindly appearance - I made them quite acrobatic - hopping around a lot - eating various things. The rodian pc (one of our more creative players) is always finding various things to eat - with him and the verpine occasionally grossing out the one human in the party (they like staying at dive motels in the out rim - free food!).
On the artwork and clothing thing....
I too often want to take pictures of potential characters and change up outfits - mostly when I use a specific character from film for the basis of something, but want them in a different outfit (geroge cloony was the model for a villian in my last game.....).
Has anyone experimented with using any of the ai art tools out there, to give pictures of characters different outfits? (I have heard they can do inappropriate things, so I wondered can they do useful things - well, useful for us gamers - I have zero experience with them, so no idea).
for me as a gm, I have done some crude editing to put various characters in different costume - but that is a lot of work at my poor level of skill.
Could you take a picture of a verpine and have an AI art program give it clothing? or more importantly, sci-fi clothing?
I have no idea. Anyone else know?
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: |
On the artwork and clothing thing....
I too often want to take pictures of potential characters and change up outfits - mostly when I use a specific character from film for the basis of something, but want them in a different outfit (geroge cloony was the model for a villian in my last game.....).
Has anyone experimented with using any of the ai art tools out there, to give pictures of characters different outfits? (I have heard they can do inappropriate things, so I wondered can they do useful things - well, useful for us gamers - I have zero experience with them, so no idea). |
I have not done this or tried this myself. In fact, I really haven't had a chance to play with any AI art programs for a number of reasons (no computer powerful enough, most of my graphics machines are either in storage or need repairs, no room for a workspace). From what I have seen and read discussed over in the Hivewired3D forums, it is something that could be done. I would link to a thread discussing this, but the thread in question is over 450 pages long and this is near the last 40 or so posts - so a lot to dig through.
| Quote: | Could you take a picture of a verpine and have an AI art program give it clothing? or more importantly, sci-fi clothing?
I have no idea. Anyone else know? |
Yes this could be done, but I do not know enough about the process. Ken1171 in the Hivewire3D forums has been experimenting with processes almost exactly as you are describing with modified Stable Diffusion and other software.
Here is the forum thread. It is long, and I have tried to link to the point in that thread where AI art started showing up. I do not think you need to be a member to view it. Keep in mind this is primarily a 3D graphics site with a lot of varied tastes and styles, so not everything in that thread is related.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | Whill you are indeed correct that the multiple-weapon rule is not in the R&E book - I checked. |
Thanks for the doublecheck.
| Quote: | | The source (unless buried in a star wars book like spec forces... |
It's not in RoE (the specforces handbook). I checked last night.
| Quote: | | ...or some gear book - there are tons) |
If it is in some other WEG Star Wars book, I'm sure it would be listed as an optional rule because it would betray the language of the rules and examples in the core. But I doubt that rule is in WEG Star Wars.
| Quote: | | The source... is more than likely later versions of d6 (space, adventure, etc.). Just like reup got background options from space, they got a few other things too it appears (d6 space, p82). |
Good catch. There it is. The REUP rule was lifted verbatim from D6 Space. Although the base system of REUP is R&E, it does indeed bring in material from D6 Space and some fan generated material. This makes an odd frankenstein ruleset where the language of this multiple weapons rule is not accounted for in the R&E-lifted combat round rules wording. (As stated in my last post, I personally feel the multiple weapons rule is a bad combination with R&E combat because the films do not portray a reality where that rule would seem to exist, and R&E combat works fine without it.)
| Quote: | | So, interestingly enough - we almost have this new classification - what do we call house rules in the incredibly popular reup - especially considering many might not even know they are house rules. |
I respectfully, vehemently, and officially disagree with this. Members not having a clear understanding of RAW has created and exacerbated many arguments over rules here. For example...
User 1 asks for more details about how User 2 handles a mechanic in their game because it isn't RAW and the response is an erroneous statement that it is RAW...
A member is describing how his house rule, which changes the terminology for RAW terms, is different than RAW but in doing so is discussing RAW by the terms of his house rule and not RAW, leading to someone interjecting with actual RAW and that person being erroneously "corrected" by someone else about what RAW even is because of confusion created by house terminology being used for RAW (and therefore confusion that the house rule was RAW)...
User 1 creates and proposes a house rule that is dependent on a misunderstanding of RAW and User 2 (who is interested in using the rule) asks how that could possible work with RAW. User 1 explains RAW erroneously and there is much confusion and argument over RAW until User 1 finally realizes RAW doesn't work the way they thought, and actual RAW destroys the house rule from even being applicable without another house rule being established and implemented first...
The majority of us here are tinkerers. RAW is the only near-absolute frame of reference we have for the discussion of the modification of rules. We need to understand RAW before house ruling it. We must not present our house rules as RAW, and we need to write clear differentiation between what is RAW and what are house rules. We need to use RAW terms when discussing RAW, even if our house rules change the terms. This is all in the forum guidelines.
If someone challenges our understanding of RAW, we need to check the book first before arguing. If we are wrong, we should own up to it for the sake of ending arguments and moving forward with the discussion. It doesn't happen often but I have been wrong before and publicly owned up to, even when I realized it years later and no one had called me out on it.
| Quote: | | we almost have this new classification - what do we call house rules in the incredibly popular reup - especially considering many might not even know they are house rules. But that is perhaps left to a different topic. |
I really don't want to see a thread where we try to re-define RAW. That will just be something else for people to argue about, what constitutes RAW.
Unpublished WEG SWD6 books are not RAW. Star Warriors is not SWD6 RAW. The WEG mini-rules (any version) are not SWD6 RAW. The LARP rules are not SWD6 RAW. WEG Metabarons is not SWD6 RAW. The D6 System toolkit is not SWD6 RAW. D6 Space and the other Purgatory D6 stuff is not SWD6 RAW. Every Star a Destination is not RAW. The fanmade Adventurer's Journal is not RAW. My house rules are not RAW (No one's house rules are RAW).
REUP as a whole is not RAW. There is certainly a lot of RAW in it. But any rules that are not from an officially published WEG Star Wars RPG source are house rules as far as SWD6 is concerned.
For absolute definition, RAW is the rules appearing in the "canon" of officially published WEG Star Wars RPG works. So that means the three sub-editions of 1e, the two sub-editions of 2e, and the IAG. That's it. Furthermore, this forum has a default RAW edition being specifically 2e and default sub-edition of R&E (everywhere except the 1e/IAG forum), meaning that unless specified otherwise or obvious from context, readers should presume R&E is what RAW is being referred to when RAW is referenced.
Yes REUP is popular and I'm sure it's existence has brought people back to the game and even generated some completely new players. As far as people not realizing some things there are not actually R&E RAW, it is their responsibility to try to know if they are going to talk about rules here, whether interpreting or modifying RAW. (In today's world it is not hard to acquire a copy of R&E and other sources of 2e rules.) If someone makes an honest mistake and doesn't realize something they thought was RAW is not RAW, then they should expect to be corrected and own up to it. If anyone just can't be bothered to know actual RAW before discussing or modifying it, then they shouldn't post about it here. They are welcome to create a new website where REUP is the default rules.
| Quote: | Of course, mostly, my players are not min-maxers..... mostly.
however - the Codru-Ji pc in my game does get hassled by attentive guards when he is trying to hide his arms in his jacket..... (they were involved in a public firefight and the security APB later said "group of aliens, one blue and one with four arms....). The pc's made some good social skill rolls to con the guards "We heard it was a BLUE four armed alien....". The blue one was our rodian. He has a hoodie now...
Back to the verpine.
We played this past friday, and our verpine NPC was still a ton of fun - the party has a lot of fun with this quirky character - besides their obviously different social perspectives (hive group, etc.) - given their spindly appearance - I made them quite acrobatic - hopping around a lot - eating various things. The rodian pc (one of our more creative players) is always finding various things to eat - with him and the verpine occasionally grossing out the one human in the party (they like staying at dive motels in the out rim - free food!). |
It sounds like you and your players are having fun. Awesome.
| Quote: | | Could you take a picture of a verpine and have an AI art program give it clothing? or more importantly, sci-fi clothing? |
Or additional arms? I don't know. Most existing art I have seen of Verpine already has clothing.
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