How to force imperial troops to surrender?

[Volar the Healer]

Ditto. We explore ideas, we do not argue. Dissent is acceptable at the Rancor Pit (at least until Mr. Lucas logs on).
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[Jedi Skyler]

[Vanion]

Here is my take on the whole Stormy/Clone debate. I draw all of my conclusions from what I have seen in the movies and from my own common sense. (I've only read about 15 SW novels, and a handful of the Dark Horse Comics)

First off, how many clones did the Kamino cloners create? We really don't know, but it certainly had to be in the hundreds of thousands... if not more. I've always assumed that the cloning facilities on Kamino were shut down at some point. Eighteen years go by... there certainly HAD to be a ton of the clones left at that point... hence I tend to think that most of the Stormies in Ep4 were clones... I also tend to follow my own logic and say that as the timeline approaches Ep6, there are fewer and fewer clones left.

I tend to also say that, if you look hard, you can see less discipline and more individuality in the Stormies by Ep6.

Perhaps those two casual-speaking Stormies on the Dstar in Ep4 were truly not clones... or maybe they were clones who were just in a relaxed state. We don't know that the clones never displayed any individual charcter or personality... nor do we know if they were wiped of any personality... we simply know that they were genetically bred to accept orders and fulfill their duty without question.

In the end... if you are one to say that all the Stormies in Ep4-6 were not clones, then what happened to all of them?

For the most part, I'm like Volar, I tend to look directly to the movies to answer stuff like this... then fill in the gaps with common sense. We all know what George thinks of all the rest.
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"Life is not measured in years, but by deeds"

[entropy]

I've personally always felt that the stormtroopers were clones. I formed that belief when I was very young, and I doubt anything Lucas or anyone else says will change that. I reconcile the fact that they are not all the same height by suspending disbelief, and accepting that the characters on the screen are actors.

We don't know how many clones were created. If Kamino was closed down, it was likely done by the Empire, and they would certainly have taken the technologies they could. The Empire could easily have been making their own clones to replace the fallen ones. Look at the trooper complement on the death star(s), and the trooper complement on the star destroyers. Consider how many planets there are, and how many troops you need to hold a planet, especially against a rebellion. Then consider that these stormtroopers age, and you're not going to get more than 20-30 good years of service out of them (barring longevity breakthroughs not mentioned in the movies).

I don't think the number of stormtroopers is in the hundereds of thousands, I think it's in the hundereds of millions, perhaps more. The scale of the universe demands it.

[Gry Sarth]

What happened to the clones? They died in battle or got too old, that's what. Remember that they were made with growth acceleration, if I remember correctly, they age 3x faster than a human. So by the Rebellion era, the Clone Wars clones would be at least 60 years old or so... I can imagine a few still operational, but the bulk of stormies would have to be regular recruits.
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[Jedi Skyler]

[scott2978]

Time for me to weigh-in on this issue.

The movies do present direct proof that the Stormtroopers are not clones:

1. They don't speak with a Jango Fett accent.
2. 100% of all clones were Jango Fett clones (except Boba Fett).
3. In no movie does any Stormtrooper ever speak with a Jango Fett accent.
4. In no movie is any clone ever shown to exist besides Jango Fett clones.

So, Stormtroopers are not clones. EU material supports this as well, reinforcing the movies, not contradicting them.

So now that we've cleared that bit up, back to the debate about surrendering. I think it would be near impossible to coerce Stormtroopers to surrender. Near, but not impossible. Right now in the USA we have troops like those two Delta Force operators in Mogadishu who fought at 100:1 odds to the last bullet. If real humans can do that, Sormtroopers are certainly capable of at least that much after their indoctrination. So forcing stomtroopers to surrender under NORMAL conditions is not possible (in my opinion). However, since Stormtroopers are actually people, anything can happen. Indoctrination doesn't work on everyone. Look at Davin Felth. He changed his mind, without leaving the Corps. He would be possible to coerce into surrendering. Now imagine 5 years from then, Davin is a lieutenant. He might be gathering a bunch of other Stormtroopers near him that feel the same way. So, it's possible, however unlikely, that Stormtroopers might surrender.

Now as for Imperial Army troopers, they are not the cream of the crop like Stormtroopers are. They probably have families at home. They probably hate being a minnow in the shark tank of Imperial bureacracy, and are just in the military to serve a tour and get the benefits. Sure, they're loyal. But they aren't going to lay down their lives for nothing. All wars end. If you end up a POW, it's better than being dead. Some day, like German fighter pilot Erich Hartmann, you might get to see your family again, even if you have to endure years of slave labor and torture. And, now cut that with a good dose of how benevolent the people are that you're surrendering to. The rebels aren't likely to murder or torture surrending Imperial troopers. Those citizens out there that the rebels are fighting, they have friends and relatives in the Imperial military. Slaughtering your enemies has never been a trademark of the "good guys". So I think Imperial Army troopers, under NORMAL conditions, would pretty readily surrender, if their situation did indeed seem hopeless. But if it were an even fight, and the Imps had no REASON to surrender, I think they'd choose to take their chances with a shootout. They key here is giving the Imps:

a) The impression that their situation is hopeless.
b) A damn good reason to surrender.

Con is definitly the way to go for reason A if it's not the truth. Even if it's not though, and enterprising Reb commander can give the Imps the impression that he's got a lot more men than he really does. Like getting on the comlink and saying LOUDLY "HQ this is 3rd squad, we've encountered a enemy force about a third our number. We've got 1st and 2nd squads flanking them now. Should we attack or allow them to surrender?" For reason B you might have to get a bit more dramatic. If the firefight is going to happen in a populated area for example, the Imps might agree to back off without actually laying down arms. Or if they were standing in a fuel depot or an ammo dump. The bottom line is that trained, confident military troops don't just surrender because they got surprised. You need a better reason than "Throw down your guns, we have the initiative."


Scott

[entropy]

I had no intention of going back to this, but I can't let this go by, sorry guys.

[Gry Sarth]

I agree that the whole accent thing is a very poor argument..... Boba Fett didn't have a Jango accent up until last year......
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[Phalanks Balas]

Other point that let me think stomies are not clones is that Empire use forced conscription.

Why trying to force people to serve as a trooper if you have clone capability ?

I consider Stromtroopers resistant to bribe or other opportunities but not immune because they are humans. Difficulty should be "very difficult" or "heroic" which means impossible for most of people in the galaxy.
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Phalanks

A day you will be facing the guns of the Black Pearl. You will know what means damned pirates !

[Soniv]

If we're going with official rules, though:

[Jedi Skyler]

[scott2978]

You have to remember, though, that stormies undergo INTENSIVE indoctrination. A big part of that is being subjected to the same Imperial propaganda machine that the rest of the Empire is inundated with. The Rebels are portrayed as thieving, cold-blooded murderers, and lawless scoundrels who are bucking the rightful system of government. ...SNIP... [/quote]

That part of my post was about Imperial Army troopers, not Stormtroopers. The original poster was talking about Imperial Army troopers so I thought I'd throw in a comparrison with Stormtroopers just because they got entangled in the discussion, but the whole idea is that the surrendering Imperials would be Army, not Stormies.


Some people disagree with my citing Jango's accent as proof that Stormtroopers are not clones. Hey, I agree with you guys, it's a stretch, but you can't deny that it's canon. It's a fact according to the movies, so it's inherently irrefutable.

But even so, accent or no accent, if George had intended for them to be clones it would be easy to record the same man's voice for every Stormtrooper. The fact that he didn't is a clear indication to me that he meant to show that they were in fact people in the service of the empire. Leia says to Luke "Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?" But she doesn't look the least bit surprised by it. If everyone knew that the Stormtroopers were all exactly the same height, it would have been a big surprise to see a short one. Not to mention that all the Death Star crew didn't seem to think it was a big deal either.

That's my opinion, at least. Everyone is entitled to their own.

I'd also like to add that this forum is all about an RPG. So, if you want Stormtroopers to be clones, then just make it so! If not, then make it some other way. As a GM you can make the universe any way you want, within what your players will tolerate. It's all about what will be most fun in your game really, not about canon vs EU. The facts mean nothing![/i]

[Gry Sarth]

That was much better put scott, and you also have a very convincing argument with the issue of Luke's height.

I just think it's a whole lot more interesting to have stormies as recruits instead of clones, it opens up a lot more options.
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[Demona]

Don't you just hate it when you beat a dead horse for 3 pages then someone else has to put in their opinion

Yea...I'm the someone else.

A few quick things. Poke me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure Boba Fett was a clone. Just an unaltered clone with no growth hormones.

Scott that was a pretty good arguement with the issue about Luke's height. Luke was a really short guy in all the movies. I'm mildly suprised Han didn't call him halfpint.
But Leia could have just been used to bigger beefier troopers. A stereotype if you will. For example...I am a pretty short person. And when I went to tech school to learn heavy equipment operation Many of my fellow students would harass me asking if I needed a booster seat or help reaching the pedals. Most of the students were pretty big guys and most of them were at least a half a foot taller then me, and then they see me a short girl who had trouble hiking my leg high enough to reach the bottom step of a bulldozer.

There is something I am curious about. In EP 1-3 all the clone officers were clones. But in EP 4-6 they obviously not clones. If the stormies ARE clones then why aren't the officers clones. In my opinion normal officers would be much easier to corrupt then clones, and the less corruption the smoothier the Empire would run.

Ok I am done
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