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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | The commander of a ship should be able to use Tactics without worrying about MAPs because they most likely are not directly controlling anything on the ship at all, leaving those tasks to the crew. |
Wouldn't the commander of a ship or fleet still need to make some command rolls every now and then, in addition to tactics? If making them both in the same round, there could and should be MAPs.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | The commander of a ship should be able to use Tactics without worrying about MAPs because they most likely are not directly controlling anything on the ship at all, leaving those tasks to the crew. |
Yes, that fits with my view. I see this skill being applicable to either a small group of PCs (either on foot, or crewing a vehicle or starship), or as one PC in command of a capital ship, where Command is used almost exclusively before a battle even starts (as per our other discussion on the matter). The VE Command roll would only only apply in the case of a group of PCs working together, not a military unit who have drilled and exercised in order to make working together as natural as breathing.
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
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Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | The commander of a ship should be able to use Tactics without worrying about MAPs because they most likely are not directly controlling anything on the ship at all, leaving those tasks to the crew. |
Wouldn't the commander of a ship or fleet still need to make some command rolls every now and then, in addition to tactics? If making them both in the same round, there could and should be MAPs. |
A commander could do both in the sanme turn and suffer MAPs, but should not have to directly command every turn. I have been using command to give bonuses to one specific section (shields, weapons, piloting, sensors, communications, etc.). However, after reading this and other posts, I wonder if the captain's command rolls should just give bonuses to the command rolls of each section commander. Seems logical, but just seems kind of tedious to roll for a bonus for a roll for a bonus... or, as CRMcneill described above.
But ti your point, yes, it could incur MAPs if used in the same round as command rolls. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | The commander of a ship should be able to use Tactics without worrying about MAPs because they most likely are not directly controlling anything on the ship at all, leaving those tasks to the crew. |
Wouldn't the commander of a ship or fleet still need to make some command rolls every now and then, in addition to tactics? If making them both in the same round, there could and should be MAPs. |
Yup. Just like a pc wanting to command his party, and does something else as well...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Okay, been wanting to get this written up for a while, and I finally have a breather from work to do it...
Tactics
Time Taken: One round to several minutes.
Specializations: Types of military units (small squads, starfighters, capital ships) or combat forms (melee or brawling).
Tactics represents a character's ability to deploy and maneuver combat forces to their advantage. While it can theoretically be used to gain general knowledge of how best to stage certain military operations (orbital blockades, ground assault, fleet actions, etc), the most practical in-game use will be in small unit combat, either small squads or starfighter-scale vessels. Such situations will require the Tactician to be constantly scanning the battlefield, looking for advantageous or potentially hazardous conditions, as well as trying to predict what the enemy commander will try to do next.
In game terms, the Tactician will roll their Tactics Skill against either the enemy commander's Tactics skill, or a flat Difficulty depending on the complexity of the situation. The result is then compared to the following chart:Success # = Result
0-5 = Anticipate: +1D to Initiative
6-10 = Advantage: As Anticipate, plus a temporary bonus to one Skill that round. The Tactician may choose one result from the following list, or may roll twice (duplicate results stack):1-2 = Maneuver (+1D to one Movement Skill that round)
3-4 = Attack (+1D to one Offensive Skill for that round)
5-6 = Defense (+1D to Cover or one Defensive Skill that round) 11-20 = Deceive: As Anticipate and Advantage, plus the Tactician briefly confuses his opponent, who suffers a -1D MAP for the round.
21+ = Surprise: As Anticipate and Advantage, plus, the Tactician makes a sudden move or maneuver that leaves his opponent so flat-footed that he can't react to it at all. Losing Tactician counts as Surprised, as per the rules on pg. 296 of 2R&E.
All Results take effect at the beginning of the next round, subject to any Command Skill rolls (see below).
If the Tactician is using Tactics to generate a bonus for themself (as would be the case in a Melee or a one-on-one starfighter battle), it is automatically applied at the beginning of the next combat round. If, however, the Tactician is Commanding a group in combat, they must make a Command Skill roll in order to pass that bonus on to the others.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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I like the idea C.. BUT i just can't see how in a one-on-one melee (or space fight), tactics would help...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I like the idea C.. BUT i just can't see how in a one-on-one melee (or space fight), tactics would help... |
The idea is to do something to fake out an enemy or lure them into a situation where they are at a disadvantage. Narratively, this is indistinguishable from a Tactics roll, so I just decided to include it in the skill. For in-universe examples, the Jedi principles of Sokan and Trakata involve the Jedi equivalent of Tactics in Lightsaber Combat.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Tactics: A New Old Approach |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Okay, been wanting to get this written up for a while, and I finally have a breather from work to do it...
Tactics... |
Very cool.
| garhkal wrote: | | I like the idea C.. BUT i just can't see how in a one-on-one melee (or space fight), tactics would help... |
For a filmic melee example, Obi-Wan clearly attempt a "Deceive" during the duel at the end of TPM. Watch Obi-Wan closely after his close-up in this video. He starts to quickly move toward Maul to get him to react, but then ducks back – it was a trick while Qui-Gon moved in on his right. I can see something like Maul flinching to a never-completed advance of the enemy causing him to suffer a MAP. It may have worked, because Maul immediately retreats backwards from them both.
This has been a real world standard move in melee (including unarmed) combat for centuries. It is called a feint. You make them think you are going left but then you go right, etc. If we have this, why can't Star Wars? If it applies to swords it can apply to lightsabers.
How would this not also apply to aerial/space combat? A commander can't make their enemy think their forces are trying a certain maneuver but really they doing something else?
And the other possible action, anticipate, is where you notice what the enemy is doing and use that to your own advantage. I can Tactics applying to combat at all levels.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I like the idea C.. BUT i just can't see how in a one-on-one melee (or space fight), tactics would help... |
The idea is to do something to fake out an enemy or lure them into a situation where they are at a disadvantage. Narratively, this is indistinguishable from a Tactics roll, so I just decided to include it in the skill. For in-universe examples, the Jedi principles of Sokan and Trakata involve the Jedi equivalent of Tactics in Lightsaber Combat. |
THat sounds more like how some game systems allow you to give up one attack (of multiple) to make a "Feint" attempt.
TO me feinting is more of a con attempt, than tactics..
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | THat sounds more like how some game systems allow you to give up one attack (of multiple) to make a "Feint" attempt. |
Did you not see my post immediately above yours? I said the deceive outcome is like a "feint." But "feint" is not just something in other games. It's in real life too.
| garhkal wrote: | | TO me feinting is more of a con attempt, than tactics. |
Sure, that makes sense.
He was inspired by The Star Wars Rules Companion, and the third and final version of 1e rules. It has a capital ship combat system and, for the first time, we were given rules for the starship tactics skill that had previously only appeared in character stats.
I might handle it more like 1eRC RAW where a character declares which effect they going for, and keep it the tactics skill but allow a skill synergy bonus from the character's con/deception skill to Deceive attempts. But CRMcNeill's system seems like a pretty good one to me.
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Last edited by Whill on Thu Aug 15, 2024 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 11:19 am Post subject: |
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There's a fair point to be made that, even on a successful Tactics roll in a one-on-one battle, the PC would still need to make the appropriate Brawling / Melee / Starfighter Piloting roll to pull it off. I mostly just wanted to get this written down and posted, so it will likely be refined at some point in the future.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 3:21 am Post subject: |
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I had a thought regarding the Tactics skill and Droids. It's suggested in the films and the larger EU that the ability of organic beings to think creatively gives them a combat advantage over droids. One obvious way to do that (if one were to use the Tactics skill to generate a bonus) would be to give characters a bonus - I'm thinking 1D or 2D - to Tactics when rolling against droids. In that scenario, a droid might be technically superior than a living being, but because said being can "think outside the box", as it were, they can take advantage of a droid's tendency to behave in predictable ways.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Add to that, a droid can only 'tactic out' what its been programmed to do.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Add to that, a droid can only 'tactic out' what its been programmed to do. |
That’s what I was thinking, as part of the fluff justification for the Tactics penalty.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Another thought re: the Tactics skill write-up. In some other systems, I’ve seen good tactics represented by allowing skill re-rolls at critical moments. I’m considering inserting it into the Results table, where the Tactician can allow a PC to re-roll a failed roll, but I’m not quite sure how I want to do it (or even if it should be done at all)
Input?
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