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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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 Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: 8km vs. 17.6 km vs. 19km vs. 19.2 km SSD discrepancy? |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | 5 miles = 8.0 km Super-class Star Destroyer
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11 miles = 17.6 km Executor-class Star Dreadnought
11.875 miles = 19.0 km ??Executor-class Star Dreadnought??
...
So what i'd like to know, which is considered to be more accurate for the Executor-class? 17.6 km, 19.0 km or 19.2 km?
*❄edit❄*
RE-reading "History of the 5-Mile Fallacy" while a fair bit more awake, answers the question i had! Thank you, Whill! |
You're welcome. I'm very glad I could help, but I'm not seeing a conclusive statement from you. What did you settle on?
IMO, the most accurate statement is the one from ILM: "... the flagship of Darth Vader, was conceived as eleven times the size of the original Star Destroyer of Star Wars" when tied with on screen evidence. The ISDs shown flanking the Executor being of equal apparent length shows that they are an insignificant distance away from the Executor for perspective purposes, and size comparison of the ISD with the apparent length of the Executor provides the perspective needed to conclude that ILM was to a large degree successful in realizing their conceived intention on screen. Thus, the Executor is approximately 17.6km in length ("eleven times the size" of ISDs).
IMO, the 19km figure is less accurate because that includes some 'Kessel Run bragging' type of exaggeration ("nearly a dozen times the length of a star destroyer"). In 1980 it was "eleven" even, while 34 years later a fiction continuity editor approved "nearly a dozen".
In my SWU, I split the difference closer to ILM and say 18km even. YMMV. Of course, 19km would still be way more accurate than the 8km figure.
My 18km Executor length honors the five-mile fallacy history in a small way by just adding a 1 in front of the 8.  And a version of WEG's ship does also exist in my SWU, but of course it is pointedly not the class of the Executor. Maybe the Navy had to show the Senate Military Oversight Committee something under construction, so they made one or two of the 8km ships and funnelled the rest of the budget elsewhere. I named my version of WEG's ship the Superior-class.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Something just occurred to me regarding the Executor: the WEG stats have it entirely too slow. At the end of Empire Strikes Back, how is a Space 4 ship supposed to chase and keep pace with a Space 8 ship? The gang over in the Fractalsponge Discord have long asserted that the Executor was intended as something of a battlecruiser writ large, in that it had the speed to chase smaller ships and the guns to obliterate them (in many ways, it was intended to enforce the loyalty of the Imperial Fleet as much as it was to fight their opponents). |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Inquisitor1138 wrote: | Good catch! At Space 5 they can go all-out for Space 10, keeping pace with TIE fighters & running down anything slower than a TIE!
This also supports my idea for a Space 7 fleet! |
But at Space 5, the Falcon could simply go to Full or All-Out and power away from it. I was thinking Space 6 (as fast as ISDs), but that's still questionable w/r/t chasing the Falcon. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | YEa, space 4 IS kind of slow, in comparison to fighters, and even freighters. BUT when most other cap ships are also around space 4, it does make sense... AND unlike the falcon, it didn't HAVE to move around asteroids.. The falcon did! |
The only time the Executor chased the Falcon was at the end of the film, and there were no asteroids around to get in the way. |
That makes sense and I agree that the WEG stats are too slow for the Executor, but as this thread has clearly shown, WEG screwed the pooch on a very large scale in interpreting the Executor. I sincerely doubt that anyone who accepts the "five miles" as a fallacy thinks that everything else WEG said about the ship must still be correct.
EDIT: I see that your stats for the Executor-class still have the RAW speed. So I guess you'll be editing that at some point.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: 8km vs. 17.6 km vs. 19km vs. 19.2 km SSD discrepancy? |
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| Whill wrote: | | I see that your stats for the Executor-class still have the RAW speed. So I guess you'll be editing that at some point. |
Yes, that's the plan.
As far as the current conversation, I see the Executor, Assertor and Eclipse Classes as the Top Three when it comes to Imperial Navy warships (IMO, there is no need for a Sovereign if an Assertor exists).Executor (17.6 kilometers long)- Fast, big guns, big carrying capacity. More commonly seen out in the Rim region as it is better suited to pursuits and enforcements than the other two.
Assertor - Somewhat more compact than the Executor (~15 kilometers long, but actually masses more), with less onboard transport capacity, but more powerful gun armament, plus an axial superlaser that can be used either as a shipkiller or a planetary bombard weapon. Space 4, and serves as something of a battleship analog to the Executor's battlecruiser.
Eclipse (17.5 kilometers long) - Much rarer combination of the two ships, with the Executor's carrying capacity combined with the Assertor's armament (and then some) plus extensive command facilities. Space 5.
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Inquisitor1138
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: 8km vs. 17.6 km vs. 19km vs. 19.2 km SSD discrepancy? |
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| Whill wrote: | | Inquisitor1138 wrote: | 5 miles = 8.0 km Super-class Star Destroyer
...
11 miles = 17.6 km Executor-class Star Dreadnought
11.875 miles = 19.0 km ??Executor-class Star Dreadnought??
...
So what i'd like to know, which is considered to be more accurate for the Executor-class? 17.6 km, 19.0 km or 19.2 km?
*❄edit❄*
RE-reading "History of the 5-Mile Fallacy" while a fair bit more awake, answers the question i had! Thank you, Whill! |
You're welcome. I'm very glad I could help, but I'm not seeing a conclusive statement from you. What did you settle on?
IMO, the most accurate statement is the one from ILM: "... the flagship of Darth Vader, was conceived as eleven times the size of the original Star Destroyer of Star Wars" when tied with on screen evidence. The ISDs shown flanking the Executor being of equal apparent length shows that they are an insignificant distance away from the Executor for perspective purposes, and size comparison of the ISD with the apparent length of the Executor provides the perspective needed to conclude that ILM was to a large degree successful in realizing their conceived intention on screen. Thus, the Executor is approximately 17.6km in length ("eleven times the size" of ISDs).
IMO, the 19km figure is less accurate because that includes some 'Kessel Run bragging' type of exaggeration ("nearly a dozen times the length of a star destroyer"). In 1980 it was "eleven" even, while 34 years later a fiction continuity editor approved "nearly a dozen".
In my SWU, I split the difference closer to ILM and say 18km even. YMMV. Of course, 19km would still be way more accurate than the 8km figure.
My 18km Executor length honors the five-mile fallacy history in a small way by just adding a 1 in front of the 8. And a version of WEG's ship does also exist in my SWU, but of course it is pointedly not the class of the Executor. Maybe the Navy had to show the Senate Military Oversight Committee something under construction, so they made one or two of the 8km ships and funnelled the rest of the budget elsewhere. I named my version of WEG's ship the Superior-class. |
As i have consistently had the Executor-class at 17.6 km, 8.0 km Super-class Star Destroyer & the Vengeance-class at 10.1 km in my campaign, and just as garhkal was reluctant to let the 8.0 km Executor go, so was i very reluctant to embrace the sudden change to 19.0 km which, in typical Wookpoodoouh fashion, rolled out the change without any explanation. Had they cited it came from Leland Chee, i might have embraced it then.
Now, as of my latest rereading Whill's lovely & most eloquent post concerning the "History of the 5-Mile Fallacy" i was ready to accept 19.0 km for the Executor & the Vengeance both!!
And now Whill's latest post has me circling back to the 17.6 km figure.
17.6 km = intended size.
19.0 km = what is on screen?/final design?
I am again in conflict as to which to pick...
Regarding canon within my SWU, the 8.0 km Super-class Star Destroyer was developed concurrently with the two Executor-class Star Destroyers...
Palpatine was the Grand-Master of shell games, misdirection, & pretty much every kind of deception in existence.
He used secrecy on many levels, keeping the Senate largely in the dark about most if not all projects. He hid both the true size of the Super-class & how many were being built. He hid were they were being built, so he could use their construction to hide both Executors' construction.
By the time of the Battle of Endor, there's easily 1 or 2 dozen, if not more, of the Super-class in the galaxy, with only the top brass knowing the true number. Additionally, there are at least one each of the Executor-class & Vengeance-class SSDs, of which most of the galaxy has no clue...
Even after the Executor became common knowledge, most people believed the Executor was a 5 mile Super...
An enduring Legacy of Deception...
| Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | Something just occurred to me regarding the Executor: the WEG stats have it entirely too slow. At the end of Empire Strikes Back, how is a Space 4 ship supposed to chase and keep pace with a Space 8 ship? The gang over in the Fractalsponge Discord have long asserted that the Executor was intended as something of a battlecruiser writ large, in that it had the speed to chase smaller ships and the guns to obliterate them (in many ways, it was intended to enforce the loyalty of the Imperial Fleet as much as it was to fight their opponents). |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Inquisitor1138 wrote: | Good catch! At Space 5 they can go all-out for Space 10, keeping pace with TIE fighters & running down anything slower than a TIE!
This also supports my idea for a Space 7 fleet! |
But at Space 5, the Falcon could simply go to Full or All-Out and power away from it. I was thinking Space 6 (as fast as ISDs), but that's still questionable w/r/t chasing the Falcon. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | YEa, space 4 IS kind of slow, in comparison to fighters, and even freighters. BUT when most other cap ships are also around space 4, it does make sense... AND unlike the falcon, it didn't HAVE to move around asteroids.. The falcon did! |
The only time the Executor chased the Falcon was at the end of the film, and there were no asteroids around to get in the way. |
That makes sense and I agree that the WEG stats are too slow for the Executor, but as this thread has clearly shown, WEG screwed the pooch on a very large scale in interpreting the Executor. I sincerely doubt that anyone who accepts the "five miles" as a fallacy thinks that everything else WEG said about the ship must still be correct.
EDIT: I see that your stats for the Executor-class still have the RAW speed. So I guess you'll be editing that at some point. |
As of Disney acquiring Star Wars, Lucasfilm, LucasArts & ILM, they retconned the Imperial-class SDs being as fast as Venators from the prequels... The more i thought about it, the more i liked the idea...
So now in my SWU, i have made almost every capital ship in the Imperial Navy a Space 7 ship.
Now my question is, do i make the SSDs Space 7 as well or cap them at 6? |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:37 am Post subject: |
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6 is my vote. Any higher and you start crowding ships like the Carrack, where it’s speed is one of its main advantages.
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Dr. Bidlo
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Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| This is the path to the Dark Side... once you start, you will start to look at the movements of all the ships. Maybe is is needed though... maybe the Carrack should be even faster than Space 8...? Okay, I take that back! |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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IMO caps should top out at 5, for Normal. Six to eight, for those who are LISTED as being speedsters, for keeping UP with pirates etc.. Such as the Carrack, or Customs ships.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | IMO caps should top out at 5, for Normal. Six to eight, for those who are LISTED as being speedsters, for keeping UP with pirates etc.. Such as the Carrack, or Customs ships. |
I don't see why ISDs and MC80's should be downgraded to 5. The whole reason we're talking about this is because two different classes of Imperial capital ships (the ISD and Executor) were able to keep pace with a Space 8 Millennium Falcon. Making them even slower just exacerbates the problem.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:24 am Post subject: |
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I think someone just decided that the Falcon should have a sublight speed as fast as an X-wing, and for better or worse, it stuck.
I feel it is very hasty to talk about re-statting all Imperial capital ship speeds based on the Falcon's speed stat. I would first consider that the Falcon is perhaps statted too fast. Also, consider that Han is one of the best pilots in the galaxy, so for him, high speed would likely be easier than most Imperial pilots going cruising speed, and likewise all-out would be easier for Han than other pilots going high speed.
And even if the Falcon should be an 8, I would consider that perhaps the Falcon might not have been at a full state of repair and maintenance in the movie. Film evidence shows that Han and Chewie were hurriedly working on the ship during the Battle of Hoth. They may have done the minimum they needed just to get it in flying again – not necessarily in top shape (meaning it may have still had more malfunction than just the hyperdrive). And the ship took several TIE fighter blasters and asteroid hits. On Cloud City, Lando said he would get his people to work on the hyperdrive, and they did indeed fix it. That doesn't mean they fixed everything else.
Finally, it is the ships that appear in the game that should have game mechanics that don't seem like an affront to the films. Unless the Falcon is in your game, it shouldn't really be that important to stat out a unique ship that operates based on pure linear plot and not game mechanics.
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:57 am Post subject: |
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I am a firm beliver that the Falcon being fast is the 12 parsec, not the outright sublight speed and we do see in the movies at least that the ship is not that fast, it is not a fighter and does not have the speed of one.
I will belive the speed 8 is a modification to the falcon alone and the yt-1300 possibly to me no more than a max 6 even if that....is a "hauler"
To have a ISD or other capital ship being "slow" becuse of size makes little sens as if we look to earth navy warships they are very fast, in fact tou need quite a fast dedicated "speed" boat to supass a warship in most cases, with something like the Nimitz Class pusing 40+ Knots, which is fast for a ship and very fast for a capital ship, even a super tanker pushes 20-30+ knots.
most "recreational" small boats rarely push 30+ knots let alone 40+ unless they are "made for speed" |
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Inquisitor1138
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:41 am Post subject: Space 6 Atmosphere: 315; 900 kmh |
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Thank you, everyone! I am happy to have my answer, and i am grateful for your input!
So in my SWU, i am gonna go with Space 6 Atmosphere: 315; 900 kmh for the super-big capital ships, while the rest of the Imperial fleet up to the 2,500 meters long can have the Space 7 Atmosphere: 340; 975 kmh! |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | I think someone just decided that the Falcon should have a sublight speed as fast as an X-wing, and for better or worse, it stuck.
I feel it is very hasty to talk about re-statting all Imperial capital ship speeds based on the Falcon's speed stat. I would first consider that the Falcon is perhaps statted too fast. Also, consider that Han is one of the best pilots in the galaxy, so for him, high speed would likely be easier than most Imperial pilots going cruising speed, and likewise all-out would be easier for Han than other pilots going high speed.
And even if the Falcon should be an 8, I would consider that perhaps the Falcon might not have been at a full state of repair and maintenance in the movie. Film evidence shows that Han and Chewie were hurriedly working on the ship during the Battle of Hoth. They may have done the minimum they needed just to get it in flying again – not necessarily in top shape (meaning it may have still had more malfunction than just the hyperdrive). And the ship took several TIE fighter blasters and asteroid hits. On Cloud City, Lando said he would get his people to work on the hyperdrive, and they did indeed fix it. That doesn't mean they fixed everything else.
Finally, it is the ships that appear in the game that should have game mechanics that don't seem like an affront to the films. Unless the Falcon is in your game, it shouldn't really be that important to stat out a unique ship that operates based on pure linear plot and not game mechanics. |
Plus, just because we saw ONE instance of it "Out running an ISD, does not mean it can outrun them all the time.. IT mostly seemed like it more maneuvered better..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Space 6 Atmosphere: 315; 900 kmh |
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| Inquisitor1138 wrote: | Thank you, everyone! I am happy to have my answer, and i am grateful for your input!
So in my SWU, i am gonna go with Space 6 Atmosphere: 315; 900 kmh for the super-big capital ships, while the rest of the Imperial fleet up to the 2,500 meters long can have the Space 7 Atmosphere: 340; 975 kmh! |
Why? It makes plenty of sense for older ships (or ships built for specific missions) to be slower. WW2 era destroyer escorts we’re far slower than carriers or fast battleships because they were intended as convoy escorts and thus didn’t need to be fast.
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Inquisitor1138
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Space 6 Atmosphere: 315; 900 kmh |
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YMMV? "Your Mileage May Vary"?
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Inquisitor1138 wrote: | Thank you, everyone! I am happy to have my answer, and i am grateful for your input!
So in my SWU, i am gonna go with Space 6 Atmosphere: 315; 900 kmh for the super-big capital ships, while the rest of the Imperial fleet up to the 2,500 meters long can have the Space 7 Atmosphere: 340; 975 kmh! |
Why? It makes plenty of sense for older ships (or ships built for specific missions) to be slower. WW2 era destroyer escorts we’re far slower than carriers or fast battleships because they were intended as convoy escorts and thus didn’t need to be fast. |
In a normal, real-world setting, under normal circumstances, yes, 100% agree with you.
In a space opera fantasy, where circumstances are as unnatural as they get, not necessarily.
Besides, by now we should all know Palpatine's Answer to 9/10 of military spending; "Do it!"
Last edited by Inquisitor1138 on Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Even the Empire has limits. Notice they aren't sending Star Destroyers to escort convoys; they're building cheap, mass-produced Nebulon B's. Somewhere along the line, economy is a factor.
And good luck letting your PCs successfully evading any Imperial pursuers when they're in their stock light freighter and everything chasing them has Space 7.
Frankly, upgrading everything to Space 7 seems arbitrary, and doesn't take into account all of the consequences it will have for your game. For all of the stats I've changed, I've never changed anything without some sort of demonstrable reason for it, be that in the game fluff or film evidence. Some things should just be slow.
Take a look at which capital ships have a Space 4 under their RAW stats and ask yourself if they deserve or need to be bumped up to Space 7. The Dreadnought? The Bulk Cruiser? The Nebulon B?
Seriously, don't make changes to stats without a much better reason than "because space opera".
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Inquisitor1138
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Even the Empire has limits. Notice they aren't sending Star Destroyers to escort convoys; they're building cheap, mass-produced Nebulon B's. Somewhere along the line, economy is a factor.
And good luck letting your PCs successfully evading any Imperial pursuers when they're in their stock light freighter and everything chasing them has Space 7.
Frankly, upgrading everything to Space 7 seems arbitrary, and doesn't take into account all of the consequences it will have for your game. For all of the stats I've changed, I've never changed anything without some sort of demonstrable reason for it, be that in the game fluff or film evidence. Some things should just be slow.
Take a look at which capital ships have a Space 4 under their RAW stats and ask yourself if they deserve or need to be bumped up to Space 7. The Dreadnought? The Bulk Cruiser? The Nebulon B?
Seriously, don't make changes to stats without a much better reason than "because space opera". |
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