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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:22 pm Post subject: Powersuit Operation |
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This has always been a head-scratcher for me, as my view of power armor is that it is "worn", not "piloted". Thus, to me, Powersuit Operation should be a Dexterity skill, not a Mechanical one. However, a solution has just occurred to me.
I'm thinking of making the Difficulty of Powersuit Operation be based on whatever Actions the wearer plans to make that round. So, if only one action is planned, the wearer must also make a Very Easy Powersuit Operation skill roll, increasing by one step for every additional action. MAPs would still apply, of course, so the wearer would be under a constant -1D MAP for even the most basic actions.
More advanced suits could potentially include AI mechanisms that offset lower level MAPs.
Just wanted to get this written out and posted before I have to go to work. Thoughts?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Powersuit Operation |
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Just to not totally invent the wheel, here are a few past discussions for reference:
Power Armor: Dex or Mech?
Spacetrooper Armor (Updated)
Bounty Hunter Armor
The inconsistencies involving powersuit operation and suits
power suits
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | This has always been a head-scratcher for me, as my view of power armor is that it is "worn", not "piloted". |
Although I haven't statted out any powersuits since, this is ultimately the direction I went in. From the Armor/Powersuit Damage and Repair section of my Star Wars D6 Damage house rules:
| Whill wrote: | | Armor protects the wearer from damage, and powersuits enhance other character abilities (as indicated by suit stats). Power armor does both. |
I have incorporated powersuits into the armor damage system and tweaked things, but I maintain the RAW premise of armor damage: the damage result of an attack on a character (through a protected area) damages the armor/powersuit as well. The armor/powersuit damage outcomes reduce damage resistance of armor and the characteristics of powersuits accordingly. This is fundamentally different than vehicles which are directly damaged by attacks with the possibility of "passenger damage" occurring as well. I have embraced the fact that powersuits are indeed worn.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Thus, to me, Powersuit Operation should be a Dexterity skill, not a Mechanical one. |
I can see why you chose DEX. I have expanded RAW's armor repair into armor/powersuit tech (still a normal TEC skill) and expanded powersuit operation into (A) armor/powersuit proficiency, an advanced skill with both DEX and MEC as prerequisites. I know you don't like that but you'll be minimally satisfied to know that the DEX prerequisite is higher.
In my game, armor and powersuits can have DEX and PER penalties, and one thing the (A) armor/powersuit proficiency skill does is reduce those penalties (all stormtroopers have this skill in my game). But this is a passive effect of just having the skill, penalty reduction at the rate of pip per die.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | However, a solution has just occurred to me.
I'm thinking of making the Difficulty of Powersuit Operation be based on whatever Actions the wearer plans to make that round. So, if only one action is planned, the wearer must also make a Very Easy Powersuit Operation skill roll, increasing by one step for every additional action. MAPs would still apply, of course, so the wearer would be under a constant -1D MAP for even the most basic actions.
More advanced suits could potentially include AI mechanisms that offset lower level MAPs.
Thoughts? |
I haven't thought too much about how active powersuit operation will work mechanically. This is one way to do it.
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KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:31 am Post subject: |
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I forget which, but in one of the adventures there is a better purpose/usage given for the Powersuit Operations skill than in the actual rulebook. As I Recall it stated that the skill is used when putting on the power armor to insure it is fitted and calibrated to the wearer properly. I forget the specific text, but something was said about a failed roll being unable to benefit from stat boosts or features of the armor other than damage resistance and imposing a DEX penalty as if regular armor. It was one of the adventure involving sabotaging a Star Destroyer as I recall, and it was in the section of the adventure where the process of smuggling the bombs on board was set up. It also listed an armor type I had seen before but did not realize was powered armor at the time.
Since reading that, this was always how I used and applied the Power Armor skill, superseding the description in the rules, as I felt this made more sense.
I am sorry I can not point to the specific pages and book (I still have no access to my books).
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Mamatried
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Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:46 am Post subject: |
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I belive this skill was made with the "old" space trooper armor in mind, to me this reminds me more of a type of exo sout, like what Ripley uses, only armed and covered and fitted with thrusters and servos.
I belive it is the thrusters and the servos and the "machinery" operate in the powersuits making it a Mechanical skill
Now as to Powered Armor, I see these worn, not all needing a skill, like the clone and stormtrooper armors are "powered" but they are not powersuits, as these at least to me are more "exo-type" suits that while you do "wear" them you also "pilot" the thrusters, and "derive" if you will servos and the like. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Powersuit Operation |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | This has always been a head-scratcher for me, as my view of power armor is that it is "worn", not "piloted". Thus, to me, Powersuit Operation should be a Dexterity skill, not a Mechanical one. However, a solution has just occurred to me.
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Ever watch aliens? THINK of those loadlifters Ripley operated on the sulaco.
THAT IS What i think of when i hear "Power suits"..
That is why it should be mech. NOT dex.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16284
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Powersuit Operation |
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| garhkal wrote: | Ever watch aliens? THINK of those loadlifters Ripley operated on the sulaco.
THAT IS What i think of when i hear "Power suits"..
That is why it should be mech. NOT dex. |
That's a power loader, not power armor. When I hear "power suit", I think something wearable in the sense of, say, Iron Man, Starship Troopers, Space Marine Power Armor, and the like. That is why I think it should be Dex. however, I am willing to acknowledge that a wearer shouldn't just be able to throw the suit on and effortlessly make use of it, and that it should require some degree of training or operational skill. The problem is that, IMO, it sits squarely on the line between the two Attributes.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | I am sorry I can not point to the specific pages and book (I still have no access to my books). |
If you can recall any more details that might help narrow the search, I would greatly appreciate it.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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I think the "load lifter" from Alien is an excellent example of a Power Suit, now that one for loading and construction.
A "combat" suot of course would be different, but the core of it is I see it is that the Power Suit is basically a Very Heavy and Bulky Armor Suit that you operate more like a personal vehicle
I think the battleframe is a good description overall, lined in Wookienpedia
and found in 2ed revised edition
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Battleframe |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | KageRyu wrote: | | ...I am sorry I can not point to the specific pages and book (I still have no access to my books). |
If you can recall any more details that might help narrow the search, I would greatly appreciate it. |
It looks like it is Adventure Journal #3 starting on p.244. I need to read this, but I'm on my way to church, so I'll have to do it later.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | It looks like it is Adventure Journal #3 starting on p.244. I need to read this, but I'm on my way to church, so I'll have to do it later. |
I checked; this article basically toes the official line on Powersuit Operation as an entirely Mechanical skill, so I'll need to do some digging to find what Kage is talking about.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | | I think the battleframe is a good description overall. |
Considering non-combat uses like the Aliens Powerloader exist, "battleframe" is probably too narrow a description. "Powerframe" or "Exoframe" would be more inclusive.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I kinda just thought powerlifters and the like would fall under Walker Operation - it is close enough, so why create an new skill? Either way, the Mechanical Attribute is more appropriate because there are a lot of mechanical displays, sensors, and interfaces that require more than manual dexterity to operste, just like flying a starship. Yes, manual Dexterity plays a part as well, as it does with flying a starfighter or shooting its laser cannons, but it still falls under Mechanical. That's just my thought. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Powersuit Operation |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | Ever watch aliens? THINK of those loadlifters Ripley operated on the sulaco.
THAT IS What i think of when i hear "Power suits"..
That is why it should be mech. NOT dex. |
That's a power loader, not power armor. When I hear "power suit", I think something wearable in the sense of, say, Iron Man, Starship Troopers, Space Marine Power Armor, and the like. That is why I think it should be Dex. however, I am willing to acknowledge that a wearer shouldn't just be able to throw the suit on and effortlessly make use of it, and that it should require some degree of training or operational skill. The problem is that, IMO, it sits squarely on the line between the two Attributes. |
A power loader is STILL a power suit. Much like the big armors worn by space marines. OR those suits worn by the mechanized infantry in Starship troopers (Film 3).
And as for Ironman's suits, since they ARE all powered (BY his arc reactor and later on their own internal reactors), they also qualify.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I kinda just thought powerlifters and the like would fall under Walker Operation - it is close enough, so why create an new skill? Either way, the Mechanical Attribute is more appropriate because there are a lot of mechanical displays, sensors, and interfaces that require more than manual dexterity to operste, just like flying a starship. Yes, manual Dexterity plays a part as well, as it does with flying a starfighter or shooting its laser cannons, but it still falls under Mechanical. That's just my thought. |
Thanks for the back up Bidlo..
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I kinda just thought powerlifters and the like would fall under Walker Operation - it is close enough, so why create a new skill? Either way, the Mechanical Attribute is more appropriate because there are a lot of mechanical displays, sensors, and interfaces that require more than manual dexterity to operate, just like flying a starship. Yes, manual Dexterity plays a part as well, as it does with flying a starfighter or shooting its laser cannons, but it still falls under Mechanical. That's just my thought. |
The distinction I see is that most walker controls still have a pilot sitting at a console, manipulating various controls, not physically moving their arms and legs around. The powerlifter is more of a hybrid of a walker and an actual wearable suit.
I'm half tempted to just drop the Powersuit Operations skill entirely for actual wearable armor, and just have the tradeoff be expressed as a Dexterity penalty.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | I'm thinking of making the Difficulty of Powersuit Operation be based on whatever Actions the wearer plans to make that round. So, if only one action is planned, the wearer must also make a Very Easy Powersuit Operation skill roll, increasing by one step for every additional action. MAPs would still apply, of course, so the wearer would be under a constant -1D MAP for even the most basic actions...
More advanced suits could potentially include AI mechanisms that offset lower level MAPs. |
I didn't read anything in the above quote that requires the skill to be under one attribute or the other. A GM could use the skill in the manner you suggest above regardless of attribute. It's a good house rule idea either way.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | It looks like it is Adventure Journal #3 starting on p.244. I need to read this, but I'm on my way to church, so I'll have to do it later. |
I checked; this article basically toes the official line on Powersuit Operation as an entirely Mechanical skill, so I'll need to do some digging to find what Kage is talking about. |
I likewise didn't read anything in what Kage is talking about speak to which attribute the skill should be under. He was trying to be helpful for ways to use the skill in general. Your reply to me seems overly dismissive of my on-topic attempt to help you with his reply, which you expressed interest in.
I'm not sure how this new reply will be appreciated, but I have now taken the time to try to be even more helpful than when I was in a rush this morning. Perhaps the lurkers reading this will at least appreciate it...
The adventure Kage referred to must be "Death of a Star Destroyer" in Operation: Elrood. There are three different powersuits appearing on p.106-111. The stats for the suits are provided, but the powersuit rules he was thinking of do not appear in this adventure. There are no special rules for powersuits here.
The article "Outlaw Battle Armor" from AJ#3 does have rules for the powersuit operation skill (above and beyond the 2e core rule books). While there are not any "calibration" rules, there are rules for removing a suit of power armor quickly, and a damage system (which includes a possible need to remove powersuits in a hurry). The damage system is similar to the power armor damage system that later appeared in Galladinium' Fantastic Technology.
I apologize I still haven't found any rules regarding putting powesuits on and calibrating them, but it is at least possible that Kage was thinking of the AJ#3 article (which includes taking power armor off) and conflating it with the Elrood adventure which does have a lot of power armor in it.
In RAW, the powersuit operation skill is only used for movement and reaction rolls in powersuits, which again is still applicable regardless of which attribute the skill is in. In RAW, Dexterity skills are used for movement and reaction rolls, just like Mechanical skills. So which attribute seems to be a minor concern of the OP, which I read as being mostly concerned with how to use the skill. If you see how to use the skill as being absolutely dependent on which attribute the skill should be under, you haven't made that case yet.
The powersuit operation skill, regardless of attribute, could be used as in RAW and your house rules could still be used in addition to that. If your house rule idea excludes how the skill is used in RAW, you still haven't made that case yet either.
I hope this helps. Someone, anyone. As always, I'm looking forward to what you come up with.
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