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pakman
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Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 429
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 Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Would you mind providing some specific details on the 2007 revisions, and the source of these revisions? |
My dates may be off - as I could not find good sources for exact dates and some of the products (there were a lot of materials, some you mention)- I am referring to the version of D6 that is in the Open D6 OGL
it is very close to what is in adventure/space - I have not done a deep dive on it, as I had with some of the previous versions.
| Quote: | "IS"? "Minor"? I must politely, vehemently disagree with that contention. I just skimmed through my copy of The D6 System (1996) ....
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going to agree with you there - in my many post revisions my ideas are a bit lost. That version feels very - rushed and thrown together - which, being what felt like an attempt at a d6 version of gurps - was messy.
I mainly consider the core matrial in space and adventure (again, they are functionally the same, mechanics wise) to be the more ... refined next editions.
| Quote: | | My proposal of this thread (R&E minus SW) would have the same genre focus as R&E, so it would be galactic war space opera. It was have all the crunch of R&E. There definitely would be a skimming of IP fluff along the way, for sure. |
Makes sense.
| Quote: | | But it is much more "E" than "R". REUP is functionally R&E by intention (of the REUP design team). |
Absolutely - I think of it as "hey, we have star wars d6 stuff scattering in a bunch of different star wars books, lets put them in one book, and fix typos etc.". REUP was to be my source when adding my house rules - it just turned out to be a very difficult document to work with.
| Quote: | | The next closest thing to R&E's game system is the Metabarons RPG core book. WEG literally took R&E's text and chapter layout, stripped out the Star Wars IP and replaced it with the Jodoverse IP, with some very minor further tweaks like minor skill merging, its addition of honor rules and replacement for the Dark Side, etc. |
how fascinating. It would be interesting to read one day.
Back on topic- best of luck to the team - as someone who has recently tackled (and is still working on) dissecting an entire rule book for editing - it is no small feat.
While my content is different (I am adding in house rules etc.) a lot of the steps are potentially the same;
Determine specific end goals.
Decide if you are going to make a pdf version, or want a print version.
Determine method of extraction.
Determine what tools (word, indesign, pure text, etc.).
If splitting up the work decide how to manage the work and team.
Determine structure and organization changes, if any.
Identify typos or errors to resolved, and how to resolve them.
Determine your IP translations before you begin.
Set up your template BEFORE you start formatting.
etc.
I know some of these might sound...overkill - as the idea of "just take out the IP..." sounds simple. But once you get into it - editing a book has a lot of steps - and there will be lots of decisions - and deciding up front your IP "translation" helps a lot.
Best of luck on the work, and keep the community posted!
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SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | Quote: | | Would you mind providing some specific details on the 2007 revisions, and the source of these revisions? |
My dates may be off - as I could not find good sources for exact dates and some of the products (there were a lot of materials, some you mention)- I am referring to the version of D6 that is in the Open D6 OGL
it is very close to what is in adventure/space - I have not done a deep dive on it, as I had with some of the previous versions. |
To my knowledge, the dates don't matter because regardless of when D6 went OGL, the OGL "versions" of the 2004 Purgatory core book are completely identical with zero revisions.
| pakman wrote: | | Quote: | | But it is much more "E" than "R". REUP is functionally R&E by intention (of the REUP design team). |
Absolutely - I think of it as "hey, we have star wars d6 stuff scattering in a bunch of different star wars books, lets put them in one book, and fix typos etc.". |
True. But REUP is a lot more than compiling rules from various books. Since WEG Star Wars ceased publication in 1998, a key expansion in REUP not mentioned is incorporating prequel material (and more recent EU stuff). A primary goal for the REUP project seemed to be, 'Let's make R&E if it had came out today' (then).
| pakman wrote: | | Quote: | | The next closest thing to R&E's game system is the Metabarons RPG core book. WEG literally took R&E's text and chapter layout, stripped out the Star Wars IP and replaced it with the Jodoverse IP, with some very minor further tweaks like minor skill merging, its addition of honor rules and replacement for the Dark Side, etc. |
how fascinating. It would be interesting to read one day. |
The Metabarons core is a big, beautiful book, taller than R&E and loaded with cool comic book art. I highly recommend it, even if you've never read the comic books it is based on. It's got some cool character templates I am adapting for Star Wars. In my SWU, one of the satellite galaxies (Companion Grek) is based the Metabarons setting.
| pakman wrote: | Back on topic- best of luck to the team - as someone who has recently tackled (and is still working on) dissecting an entire rule book for editing - it is no small feat.
While my content is different (I am adding in house rules etc.) a lot of the steps are potentially the same;
Determine specific end goals.
Decide if you are going to make a pdf version, or want a print version.
Determine method of extraction.
Determine what tools (word, indesign, pure text, etc.).
If splitting up the work decide how to manage the work and team.
Determine structure and organization changes, if any.
Identify typos or errors to resolved, and how to resolve them.
Determine your IP translations before you begin.
Set up your template BEFORE you start formatting.
etc.
I know some of these might sound...overkill - as the idea of "just take out the IP..." sounds simple. But once you get into it - editing a book has a lot of steps - and there will be lots of decisions - and deciding up front your IP "translation" helps a lot.
Best of luck on the work, and keep the community posted! |
Thanks for posting that, which is helpful consideration for this and any project.
Unfortunately, this project on my end was nothing more than a wish and a goal. I'm far away from devoting time to this. I just feel passionately that it should exist so I posted it in case anyone else agreed. One person chimed in a long time ago and said they were working on it, but I haven't heard from them in a while so it is unknown what the status of his work is. I hope we hear from him.
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pakman
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Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Unfortunately, this project on my end was nothing more than a wish and a goal. I'm far away from devoting time to this. I just feel passionately that it should exist so I posted it in case anyone else agreed. One person chimed in a long time ago and said they were working on it, but I haven't heard from them in a while so it is unknown what the status of his work is. I hope we hear from him. |
I respect the passion for the project.
Folks working on rpg projects of passion - I totally get that and support that effort!!!
(oh, and just ordered Metabarons- found a used copy on ebay not too bad! thanks for the suggestion!!!).
on a side note - again, copying text out of reup might be a pain - or scanning - I would suggest looking at copying Opend6 space, and back to d6 2.5 (pretty much what I did).
It might be a LOT faster.
To give a jump start on the project - here is a list of some of the changes I know about;
Char creation - remove background options and special abilities - or use as examples for translating star wars species.
Key terms - minor changes - translating this would be useful.
Attributes - copy the OpenD6 - space attribute and skills. they are very close - a lot might need to be added back - as space merged some.
Specializations - have to add those in.
Advanced Skills - have to add back in.
Force Points - called fate points - keep.
Character points - very very close if I recall.
Combat Round - they have an all at once round, have to add actions steps back in.
Actions - very close - just remove waiting and hold.
movement - almost identical.
Reactions - later versions removed - add back in.
ranges and modifiers - almost identical
Cover - almost identical.
Body points and wounds - remove body points, keep wounds, adjust levels if desired.
Autofire - remove autofire/multi-fire etc., d6 just uses increased damage.
Melee - weapon to hit - instead of each weapon having a value, just used weapon types, and did those (unwieldy weapons are harder to use etc.).
Grenades - very close, just edit back to d6 2.5
Strength Damage; change from strength /2 to strength
Vehicle movement - very close - just call stunts "example maneuvers" as they are only referenced in d62.5
Vehicle damage - add in d6 tables.
Scale - very close, just uses set values instead of dice - minor tweaking.
Droids - somewhat tricky - they are called Androids in space - and a lot of differences - read before copying over - might be better to skip.
Ship design - keep some, replace others with stuff from tramp freightors. Also has version of power management, change based on if wanting to use rules from far orbit project.
Force - psionics - metaphysics - the biggest differences.
This is a hard call - have to decide how much of the stuff in 2.5 is generic vs. the stuff in opend6 space and if any streamline if desired. Open d6 just has a few sample powers, and rules for making more.
So, yeah - that is from my list of notes on changes I had to make - again, my project, while having different goals - has a lot of very similar steps.
(kind of like maybe two folks building same size houses, based on the same plans, but just making some customizations).
Anyway, if anyone works on this - please feel free to reach out - it is a huge undertaking I am happy to share experiences in it.
Best of luck!!!
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SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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Leniad
Cadet
Joined: 30 Sep 2022
Posts: 6
Location: Vienna
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Does anyone have a decent text version of R&E so we can make an IP-free PDF version? PM me. |
Unless copyright laws work totally different where you are, this would still be illegal.
I have a raw text file of original dungeons & dragons on my PC, heavily edited and commented [I OCRd the original text -> which is legal as a private copy]. I couldn't just slap a [OGL] license back on and publicise that. I would still violate the original author's [Gygax] copyright. If I took the rules and reword all of them [keep their intent but change the wording] - and this for every single sentence! Then I could publish it, sell it, .. whatever.
Just deleting references to StarWars isn't enough, you would need to rewrite the whole text.
Unless you plan a commercial product such a project seems to me too labour expensive. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Leniad wrote: | | Unless you plan a commercial product such a project seems to me too labour expensive. |
The project is labor intensive regardless, as we have discussed here. A commercial copy clearly wouldn't be legal as one can't just take something they don't own a copyright to and proceed to make money off of it. No one even hinted at selling anything here, and this comment is completely off topic for this website. Thank you.
| Leniad wrote: | | I have a raw text file of original dungeons & dragons on my PC, heavily edited and commented [I OCRd the original text -> which is legal as a private copy]. I couldn't just slap a [OGL] license back on and publicise that. I would still violate the original author's [Gygax] copyright. If I took the rules and reword all of them [keep their intent but change the wording] - and this for every single sentence! Then I could publish it, sell it, .. whatever. |
I wasn't aware that any D&D had been released with OGL except for 3e and/or 3.5. If you say other editions have been, I believe you.
I am also not too familiar with D&D OGL release standards, but it is my understanding that the purpose of releasing D&D as OGL is so that other publishers can indeed publish commercial products using D&D rules. An example of this I am aware of is Pathfinder. (I have some Starfinder books). I would have no reason to think that these published commercial works would copy any text verbatim from an existing product they do not own a copyright to.
And again, no one here is talking about publishing or selling anything.
| Leniad wrote: | Unless copyright laws work totally different where you are, this would still be illegal.
...
Just deleting references to StarWars isn't enough, you would need to rewrite the whole text. |
I am completely unfamiliar with how copyright laws work in Austria but they could be different. I would imagine there would at least be some similarities. But we are not here to talk about copyright laws.
And we are not even here to debate the technicalities of OGL D6. I was a reluctant moderator of layperson arguments about it back on the WEG Fansite (which is sadly no longer on the web). Sigh.
I was a part of the community directly involved in the formation of Open D6. The purpose of Open D6 was not the same purpose as OGL D&D. Open D6 was a desperate ploy to keep the D6 system alive in the RPG community. It was a lifeline to save a dying system. Sadly, Open D6 was largely unsuccessful in that effort. Star Wars D6 grognads like us are the largest part of gamers still playing the D6 System. And we are not selling anything. Many other websites openly, freely share bootlegs of WEG Star Wars books illegally and get away with it uncontested, but we don't do that here.
Are you familiar with D6 Legend? That document was created by a friend of mine. He took the text of WEG's DC Universe RPG core book, removed all the DC IP (textual references and images), and posted a download link for the result. But before he did this, he asked the owner of WEG, who released the D6 System as OGL and was active on the WEG Fansite at the time, if it was ok. I am paraphrasing, but the conversation was something along the lines of this:
Odysseus: Eric, can I take the text of DC Universe, remove the DC IP, slap a OGL on the back of the PDF, name it D6 Legend, and release it as part of Open D6?
Hellsreach: Of course.
Whill: Could I do the same with Star Wars R&E?
Hellsreach: Sure.
But I never did. These are not commercial products. The practical purpose of having these IP-less core rules documents (made from licensed IP games) is for potential use and reference for new and original Open D6 documents based on those game systems (also with no reference to the IP originally associated with the core's game system). I expected that would be a given in this thread because the forum guidelines are explicit. I make and enforce the rules here. The record shows that I am not a hypocrite.
But as expressed in this thread, my personal primary motivation was not even that. I just feel strongly that R&E's game system (with and without SW IP) should be acknowledged and recognized as an integral to the history of the D6 System. I feel the same way about all editions of Star Wars D6, but I just feel the strongest about R&E. As long as the R&E game system is intertwined with Star Wars IP, the Star Wars IP always outshines it. I'm vehemently opposed to the notion that any Star Wars game is great because of the Star Wars IP. I've played WotC Saga and FFG SW. The game systems suck, at least for Star Wars. D6 is big part of what makes this game so special. The D6 System was created as a vehicle for the first Star Wars IP RPG in 1987. In other words, "It belongs in a museum!" R&E is already in the Star Wars museum, but the R&E game system deserves being in the D6 museum. So I'd be happy if R&E's raw game system was there for potential Open D6 supplements to be made based on it, even if none were ever actually made.
Let's be real. It is quite possible that there would be no D6 Space/Adventure/Fantasy without R&E. It's possible there may not even be Open D6 without R&E. But R&E, the pinnacle version of the cinematic game system created for its first and greatest IP (Star Wars), is not a core system reflected in Open D6. It's a travesty.
Here is a direct quote from the owner of WEG who opened D6. Unfortunately the website it was originally hosted on no longer exists (and was not archived), but it remains on the internet as being quoted in other sources:
| Eric Gibson wrote: | | The D6 [system] will be totally free to use for commercial and non-commercial purposes, and without restriction. |
We don't need to rehash old layperson arguments from back in the aughts that have long since been settled. If there is any confusion remaining, I suggest reading this entire thread and then re-reading this post to maximize context. Thank you.
| Leniad wrote: | | ...this would still be illegal. |
| Leniad wrote: | | It's always hard to convey intentions through text only, and there are a lot of jerks out there. |
It's hard not to take your text as anything other than an accusation of illegality. It's a general best practice to avoid any language in your text that could even possibly be interpreted as accusing the owner of the site as having an intention to commit a crime if you don't really mean that, especially if you are new to the website and the people don't know if you are one of those many jerks out there or not.
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Leniad
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Location: Vienna
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:28 am Post subject: |
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There is so much info here, I don't know if can address everything.
But the key thing here is:
| Quote: | Whill: Could I do the same with Star Wars R&E?
Hellsreach: Sure. |
I assume "Hellsreach" was Eric Gibson who put the D6 core genre books [adventure/fantasy/space] under the OGL.
This is really important! You have the written consent to do this editing work to a copyrighted work by the copyright owner!
The OGL products based on DnD 3e also went that same way. They produced loose derivates based on older editions["Basic Fantasy"]. And then the slowly tried to emulated specific historic editions more closely[oDnD: "Delving Deeper", basic-DnD: "Labyrinth Lord", aDnD: "for gold and glory" and dozens others]
Ideally you have 3-4 people working on a project of this scale [working on different chapters at the same time] - or a very long breath [and a high likelihood that someone will burn out]. |
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klhaviation
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Joined: 19 Aug 2014
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Any interest still in this idea? I think it's great. A free DTRPG D6 Space wars pdf.... Heck if someone invested a few grad for decent art and offered it as "at cost" POD.... it gives the SWD6 Affectionados something to keep it alive! I'm tied up in a project but this is VERY doable. It would be nice to have some supporting writers to sanitize R&E of IP stuff... And a legal eye to vet it.
But I think this would be sooooo very much appreciated |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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