More than 18D species/templates by RAW

[Mamatried]

Looking through the WEG Official books, I came across the Ailen Encounters
(WEG40166) and the chapter on how to roll up custom aliens.

What I noticed was RAW states that you ADD 6D to the Player Character on top of the species used.

So looking at the table I see the lowest basse attibute dice being 8D and for plauer characters 14D to attributes.
the max is 14D base, with the 6D Added for player characters we have a 20D Attribute species.

I can see how this range all will balance out within the galaxy as I am one that feels that both extremes and everthing in between should be avialble.


My question is really how to you solve these issues as GMs, a player wants to roll an alien and ends up with something that has 20D or 19D to attributes, and of course both penalties and bonuses, but maybe not all balancing out totally as it is possible to roll an aline with no real penalties to anything and bonues to a lot.

[pakman]

Short Version
Every pc gets 18d. period.

Longer Version
I treat diff species values as ranges - not starting dice.
Now, if some alien species has starting stats where all the minimums are above a certain amount - that just means their minimum is lower.

I mean, sure, you could say some genetically enhanced race has minimums of 3d in everything - but then you need story factors as to why they have not completely taken over the galaxy..... It would be poor design.

So, don't make an OP race.
The max is still 18. This is pretty core to the system.

Now, in rare occurrences - if a species had a non-stat detriment (like say - no locomotion) the gm could make it an adjustment. But this is a slippery slope as some might try to get around it ("I have a hover platform!").

Side Note
You must have some incredibly min-maxing players in your group - as there seems to be a theme in many of your posts about dealing with individuals who are trying to squeeze unbalancing results out of very specific scenarios.

Now, if every one wants to run a super, and everyone gets 20d, have at it. But usually, it is 'that guy' in a group.

I would suggest to those players to join the group game, or if they want to be over powered, play a solo video game where they can mod or cheat their way to an super hero.

Just an observation. Best of luck in what ever you decide to do.
_________________
SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon....

[Mamatried]

the discussion came up really with my player not wantint to min max more than play a hapan, likeing the concept.

We then looed for the stats for hapans and looked for them frist naturaly in the alien encounter, not finding it we later found them in the right book, however it was then we noticed the part where it said the alien species attribute dice galactic norm was 2D to all with some below this and some above this.

by the table in the book the range was 8D to 14D, with 12 being the norm.
+6D added to the attributes for player characters and the GM heroes and villains.

now we found out that the hapans had 13D attibute for the species and with a +6D this is 19D total, not 18D.

With the official books, though a suppliment for aliens, and any and all non humans are in fact aliens, we can argue humans are rolled as mamalian, mixed envirnment, omnivore species with various tech levels, and no set special abilities, basically a pretty standard roll.

while we did debate this, we had a new player in the group who then simply asked to play abother alien, a four armed one but with 11D base, for a total of +6D of 17D, of course there were special abilities and the like for both the species, and both were humanoid in basic shape, the main we agreed on.

now we then found it natural to "only" give this player 17D total, 1D less than if he was a human, or a "human-equal" species.

it was then we decided for fun to follow the alien generation chapter, and we for fun rolled a 12, for a total of 14D or a +6D added (according to the rules) 20D species. we then rolled for special abilities and the like, being mostly an experiment we ended up with an agricultural, warrior race with infra vision and had to live in water. was still something that could easily fit as a Player character in a water world setting, and yes then we had to decide what to with it having the 20D if being a player character, since it was obvious that could in fact be rolled.

and then we had a large discussion about balance and if a total range of 14D to 20D on attibute was more unbalanced than a "flat" 18D to all and we simply could not agree, though we all felt that there should be some "room" and that not all species even if a PC should be equal, as it seems in books, films and comics that thye in fact are not.

but we could not agree fully, we did however make a character both of the hapan and the four armed thing from the book, neither really caused or suffered any major balance issues be it in combat or in skill use.

we were very careful to use story factors, special abiliies, and the overall anti alien empire sine the setting is the early rebellion.
the four armed one suffered more in imperial space, and the hapan was more often than not almost "blind" having the vision they have.

we did not however find any really good arguments for a player character faleen (13D) to have a total of 18D to his/her attibutes, when other faleens according to the book will have 19 (13D +6D).

and with no rules actually barring a player from being an anzat other than the obvious issues it would bring, or a hutt which could be very cool in a crime type setting, we could not justify removing dice, but we ran into the argument about if we do allow for 19D and 20D then why would anyone want to play a 18D human...and we never agreed.

My argument was you play what you think is cool and fun, and I have had much fun with a less than "human" statted character more than once and one of my favotite characters was when I took over an NPC Gamorrean who has only 11D as a species, making for a 17D PC, I has so much fun with "snout" as they called me.

but somehow people seem to be afraid to go the other way for some reason, I have frequently played with GM that basically wanted players to be 30yr olds with the skills of a 5yr old becuse "everthing" had to be a challenge or balanced, while I would state that there are more than person out there who is above average intelligent, strong and fast and has a great immune systems all at the same time, and he or she can be anyone and anywhere, so why really have such a cap when the RAW actually allows upto 8as high as I have seen) 20D to attributes.

and without the min max but logic only, we do not see anyone "weaker" or "slower" or "dumber" or less thecnologically adept as a foce user than one who is not, and to me even the Force stat that has been a stape house rule form me for a while really makes no sesne. I would claim much like with allowing 20D to attibutes in some cases, that there is no balance issue for "jedi" to have the forc SKILLS count as skills and not attribute, leaving him with with 3D to skills after 1D to all 3 force skills and 1D lightsaber, vs a non force user with 7D to aall skills......again no major if any balance issue, but here the rules are what they are,

On attributes though the books do allow for 20D and I can not see the hero of the species being "only" 18D

[garhkal]

[KageRyu]

I had thought there was a note somewhere in the Alien Encounters book (or maybe in one of the Alien Race GGs) that stated none of the aliens with High base attribute dice could be Player Races, or were only allowed as such at the GM's discretion. Again, the last time I ran Star Wars (or any RPG) was back in 2007, so I might be wrong, and I currently do not have access to my books to check (or I would and if I am right would post a page number and book tittle for reference).
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

[Whill]

This again. This is not a new topic of discussion.

[Mamatried]

who wants to be a hapan ero when you have to downgrade hapans to fit the 18D which sis a HOUSERULE not RAW, as RAW IS ALLOWING 14-20D for PC level characters, and heroes/villains, as is WRITTEN in the book(s).

If any and all statted Hapans we encounter was in the scourses with 13 D, since we had to abide by 12 D some some "house rule consese" then we found out we didn't bother and simply dropped playing since being a hero, the term hero here making you the 1% of the 1% of the 1% that is supposed to be ABOVE the norm, but having to downscale sort makes this mute so we dropped it.

We had no opert option, all NPC writeups had 19D totals, but becuse we didn't want the fabric of the galaxy to wither and break we decidded out Hapan wew handicapped so we decided one was lacking an arm ( 1D to the str guy) one had his leg amputated under the knee (-1D Dex) and our two pilots both reducing their MEC attirbuyte bu 1D to the point they are still rolling to open their dorrs.....but they have now as the sole HEROIC Hapans in thje Galaxy less stats then the norms, making them heroic.


and this is the issue I have, we are not taiing about picking the super trace that has zero drawbacks, they don't exist, the chances of ROLLING ransomly a "human" with better stats and no drawnacks is also not a high chance.

to me this is like YES we accpet that people can play a game, but they can not win the grandest price, becuse that is unballance.

I challenge anyone here to show in 2EDor RFeup(though that ebing a fan based product) where ANY of the NAMED NPCS (which are accorodng to rules +6D and stattet as players) a hapan or other 13D near humans with LESS dice.

this is the same IMO unfounded and dumb rule that force SKILLS are attributes......some call this a balance act, but I fail to see where a 15D character is in any way equal to 18D, only becuse they have a skill?

force skills less than 3D Minimum is useless and actually more power not used they are, given the difficulties, you simply "can not" use the force effectively....however when you have ONLY the force skills and the Lightsaber skill, being the "dumbest" jedi out there knowing nothing and have zero skills not force skills and lightsaber, is a formidable opponent in the end, but BOOOOOOORING....

but I suppose the fabric would break with a HAPAN player, (19D BY RAW) it is some strange laws of physics in the galaxy where heroes are weaker thant he norm

On that note the 1(D cap IS A HOUSERULE, not RAW.



OFFICIAL RULES BY WEG: States that you roll for your aliens's stats, then for GM CGARACTERS and PLAYER CHARACTERS both named int he section, ADD 6D to the ATTRIBUTE DICE, so if you roll 10-11 (on 2D) you get 13D, same as hapan.

It state nowhere in any book I can find that this is not the case, that 18D TO ALL is the one and only rule, in fact it states by RAW that there is a range on the species as weritte in the WEG book, and this is 14D lowest to 20D highest ont he Player Characters and GM heroes/Villains....

I want to see where it states that this limited to 18D and 18D only, becuse as far as I can see this is a house rule, the same house rule that many use on d20 where you are not allowed this or that at the table, but no such rule actually exixts.....
this is one such rule, there is NO RULE AS WRITTEN limiteing a PC to 18D dice only, when his species allows for more, the RFULES states that it is the spevies +6D for hereoes species can also be a template, and most templates are adjustable for attributes just for this reason.

so pg 10, alien encounters suppliment by WEG, offical book states that there is a possibility to run with 1¤-20D plyer character and GM heroes/VIllains, by the rule with no eeal issue.

why would anyone want then to not be this, well first you have to roll, i mean you CAN win 100 Millions in the lottery so why do people bother working?

[pakman]

Why is it so hard to believe that the writers of this one thing made a mistake?
All player characters should have the same. Period.

Oh and if your player "wanted to play a hapan because they liked the concept" and were not driven by the stats, then they will not care if they get 18d or not.

If they complain, then that tells you they liked the dice more than the concept, and are just rationalizing.

Unless of course, you for some reason feel 100% bound by 100% raw in every single page of all 30+ books in the game, and have never, ever made a house rule.

But hey, if you want min-maxing in your game - have fun with that.
From my decades of experience - it is a very bad idea.

But to each their own.

Also, I think this thread is done.
_________________
SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon....

[Mamatried]

[fogger1138]

I'm seeing a trend here...

[KageRyu]

Mamatried, it is very hard to decipher your posts between very bad grammar, very bad spelling, and misuse of quote blocks. This makes understanding your point difficult, and the tone of the post seems to be one of anger (+1 DSP).

If I undertaker how I am reading it, you seem to be intermixing capsule text and non-capsule text and misinterpreting some key issues about aliens.

When changing the species of a pre-generated template you do not add +6D to the template. You merely compare the existing attributes assigned to insure they are ranges between the minimum and maximum values for that template and that the total attribute dice on the add up to the new species base +6D. List any special abilities or limitations - then finish it as any other template.

With Many of the species that have base attribute dice above 12D or Below 12D this is often offset in the Aliens Species description by either special abilities or serious limitations (ranging from actual physical limits to cultural issue that could pose problems). As a GM you need to take these into account when deciding whether or not the attribute dice allotted for a given species feel appropriate or broken (either too weak or too powerful). A common example of how unbalancing a too powerful character could be was an often revisited topic on the old, official WEG forums involving the 6D STR blaster-proof Wookie. The concept of using perks and flaws to create aliens was covered slightly better in D6 space, where in SW this was all information handled behind the scenes by the writers, and so not all of the alien species are suitable for play (I urge you to seek out the thread on this forum about Fluffy).

IMHO, in any game, when a player announces a given Species, class, whatever is not fit to play because it's "weaker than other PCs" it is often do to that given player not only not understanding the game aspects of that species/class abilities but also metagaming and looking for a leg up.

I have both played in and run SW games that were much more loose with changing a templates given species where, as long as the given attributes fell within the desired species norms, it was simply a matter of changing it's name on the sheet. It keeps the game fast and moving foreward. No one ever felt cheated because they should have more dice.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra