| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
 Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:50 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | (Hollywood doublespeak for "purgatory"). |
Pretty much. He says that he has lunch with Kennedy often to discuss his ideas for it, but he clearly has no strict timeline because they have both been quoted as stating he are very busy with other movies. In other words, Lucasfilm is still desperate to get anyone of any caliber to make Star Wars movies so they can wait if they have to because later is better than never. It's been a very 'they'll get to it when I get to it' vibe with all the creators who have SW films in development. They all know that Star Wars will tie them down for a while so they are doing other stuff they want to do first.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Honestly, TLJ had some very promising moments. In particular, I think Luke's "fight without fighting" scene against Kylo Ren would've had real potential if it had been part of a larger theme tracing back through the OT |
As the TLJ defenders say, Luke continues directly from his arc in RotJ where he throws his lightsaber away and rejects the Dark Side. Therein lies the problem...
| garhkal wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | ...and PT. IIRC, in the novelization for RotS, it's stated that the Clone Wars were a massive trap for the Jedi, and that the Jedi walked into it by choosing to fight in the war. Some sort of epiphany about breaking the paradigm of good and evil battling with lightsabers would've been very cool, but Disney either couldn't or wouldn't give us that. |
That is a good point. IN the prequel, we DID see the jedi fail, becauase they just 'rushed in'. Had they explained that's WHY luke fought the way he was doing, was BECAUSE he was told that fact, after Yoda made that realization, that may have had more of an impact on that scene.. |
Very cool? There is a lot of diversity among Star Wars fans because I could not disagree more.
Luke had his epiphany in RotJ and literally threw his lightsaber away. But before he did, there was a cool lightsaber duel. Yoda realized too late that by fighting in the Clone Wars, the Jedi had lost. That only came after an epic galactic war.
The title of the franchise is Star WARS. It would be pretty boring without the wars. Jedi philosophy makes Star Wars meaningful, but lightsaber duels make Star Wars fun.
TLJ had Luke abandon the Jedi just to serve the plot of him coming back to his point of his epiphany in RotJ. (This time, there was no lightsaber duel first.) His epiphany in RotJ had lead to Anakin's return and sacrifice of himself to destroy the Sith and save the Jedi Order. Luke just repeated his father's sacrifice to save the Resistance and that generation's hope for future Jedi, Rey.
One disgusting aspects of TLJ are that Luke had abandoned the Jedi Order. No, he didn't turn completely to the Dark Side like his father had, but it is still just regurgitating story beats from the OT when Luke shouldn't have abandoned it after his ordeal in RotJ.
Another disgusting thing about TLJ is that there are no lightsaber duels at all, not even by other character. It shouldn't be Luke at this point? Fine. Let Rey do it. Give the Snoke's Red Guards minor Force-sensitivity and lightsabers.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
I agree Luke's story arc in the DT is garbage, and spits all over his triumph at the end of RotJ. I'm just saying that, contained within a better story arc, his duel with Kylo had real potential to be an expression of what he had learned from his duel with Vader and the Emperor. It could've been an expression of the enlightenment he gained from it, which could, in turn, be passed on to subsequent generations.
I've always felt that Disney missed a real opportunity to make their trilogy into a culmination of the entire nine-film arc, with the classic heroes mentoring and passing the torch to the next generation while finding some way to break the paradigm of Jedi vs Sith. An atypical lightsaber fight ala the one on Krayt could've been a culmination of that process of revelation. But it wasn't, because Disney chose to give us... something else.
I'm talking about the lightsaber fight on its own, not as part of Luke's awful story arc in the ST.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
My complaint about lightsaber v lightsaber duels being a fundamental of Jedi film action and thus missing from TLJ didn't require Sith characters to remedy. RotS gave us OWK v Grievous, who officially isn't even Force-sensitive. TFA gave us Finn & Rey v Kylo Ben.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | I agree Luke's story arc in the DT is garbage, and spits all over his triumph at the end of RotJ. I'm just saying that, contained within a better story arc, his duel with Kylo had real potential to be an expression of what he had learned from his duel with Vader and the Emperor. It could've been an expression of the enlightenment he gained from it, which could, in turn, be passed on to subsequent generations.
I've always felt that Disney missed a real opportunity to make their trilogy into a culmination of the entire nine-film arc, with the classic heroes mentoring and passing the torch to the next generation while finding some way to break the paradigm of Jedi vs Sith. An atypical lightsaber fight ala the one on Krayt could've been a culmination of that process of revelation. But it wasn't, because Disney chose to give us... something else.
I'm talking about the lightsaber fight on its own, not as part of Luke's awful story arc in the ST. |
Sure, the faux battle between projection-Luke and Kylo Ben on Crait could have been better if it had been part of some unspecific better DT, but we could say the same thing for a lot of scenes.
The paradigm of 'Jedi v Sith' was broken at the chronological conclusion of the Lucas Saga because Anakin (the titular Jedi) destroyed the Sith. The new Jedi Order that would logically follow would be somewhat like the one that had existed before the Sith existed, one where the galaxy is ideally more balanced instead of leaning to darkness.
TFA introduced a new paradigm that stayed within the 'destroyed Sith' premise from the Lucas Saga's conclusion by inserting generic Sith-like Dark Side replacements: Snoke and Kylo Ben. TLJ only continued this, so the Crait battle was a part of the 'post-Sith paradigm.'
TRoS is the film that retconned everything and un-destroyed the Sith Master, retroactively making Snoke a Sith puppet and Kylo Ben an unknowing Sith apprentice. This undoes Anakin's accomplishment just to have Rey re-destroy the Sith. But Snoke is dead and Kylo Ben turns good, leaving Palpatine as the only Sith in the final Jedi v Sith confrontation, and Palpatine does not use a lightsaber versus Rey.
Neither the TFA/TLJ post-Sith paradigm or TRoS's particular returned-Sith situation is satisfying. If not those, then what instead?
I say continue the Jedi v Sith paradigm and the Anakin v Palpatine conflict at the climax of RotJ. Palpatine can return by an "unnatural" possession of a descendent, like the "abomination" of the spirit of the Baron inhabiting his granddaughter in the Dune series. Anakin could return through reincarnation, something only those who become Force ghosts even have a chance of doing. He would become one of the main characters of the next generation. In the end, 'Anakin' could still destroy this Sith, this time for good, by sacrificing not only his corporeal life but also his ability to become a Force ghost or reincarnate – This is the only way to prevent Palpatine spirit from returning, by Anakin choosing complete annihilation but taking Palpatine with him. That extends the Lucas Saga without undoing anything, and Anakin still fulfills the prophecy of the chosen one by destroying the Sith.
Luke could still have a faux battle via Force projection, except I see no reason to kill Luke or Leia off. Let them remain the teachers of a better future with a vast Jedi Order. Master Luke wouldn't necessarily even need to have a real lightsaber duel anywhere in my personal sequel trilogy, but you better believe that other characters would. When the Sith are finally destroyed and only Jedi remain, then there wouldn't be that many lightsaber duels, so that certainly could be a lesson that Luke teaches the younger generation of Jedi. At the end after lots of cool Jedi action.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1861
Location: Norway
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have issues tking the move seriously. and to even see it as star wars.
let me explain: mames of characters and places does not alone make for Star Wars.
We have a director here, Rian Johnson whi did say and did emphasise that this is what he meant.
Rian Johnson state that he did not make a star wars movie, there is is from the man himself.
In fact RJ never intended to make the last jedi a star wars movie, he stated that his SOLE INTENTILON and what he did was not NOT MAKE A STAR WARS FILM but make a file ABOUT THE FEELING of star wars...
I think those statement shoyld be enough to say TLJ is not was not and can not be a star wars movie, despite some very awesome and breath taking cinematography
but a move MADE to destroy and subvenrt, made to be ABOUT the feeling of the franchise more than be a franchise movie I think should lay dead any and all defense of the movie in a star wars context.
Was TLJ a good movie, NO, it had Awesome cinetography
was TLJ A Star wars Movie? ABsolutely not in any way, it is a moviee made to suvert a franchose, destroy it and then about this feels. nothing to with a struggel between good and elvi in the stars.
TLJ is NOT a star wars movie and we need to sop naminging as such, it is not, never was , never will be and above was never intended to be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
I tend to agree with Mamatried's points regarding the film. While it had a few really great scenes, overall it did not feel like a Star Wars film, none of the DT did to me.
I also agree with many of Whill's points. That the writers and directors and producers behind the DT felt they needed to undo all of the accomplishments of Luke and Anakin from ROTJ just so Rey could shine I found unforgivably arrogant. It's also one of the big reasons I do not like the character of Rey and never will. In fact, because of the poorly developed story arcs for all of the characters in the DT I did not find myself really invested in any of them. What character interaction there was felt forced and like an infodump.
Many of the backdrop's also felt very uninspired to me. At least in the PT (which as many know I am not fond of) we had some great, visually inspiring settings - we have Feluja, We get to see parts of Coruscant, though Genosis was another barren world and we also went back to Tatooine. Coulodn't Disney at least have given us some visually inspiring ruins of the Old Sith cities?
I think, and this is speculative, that the greater problem Disney is having with Star Wars is that they are not hiring or tasking people to the project that have a passion, love, or understanding of Star Wars. Directors who "don't want to be tied down" or who "didn't care for Star Wars as it was" or who just see it as a vehicle to greater fame because it is so huge, etc... I was unsuccessful with my foray into media production for many reasons, but had I not been, had I gotten a call to be involved in Star Wars, I would drop whatever I was doing. To have a chance to be part of the legacy, and put my mark in it, that would have been a dream for me. Star Wars is why I tried to get into film and multimedia to begin with. Disney needs to find That director and writer. Disney needs to find the talent and crew that will be exited to do it...not glue a cannon on the bottom of an ISD and scale it up to call it a new ship.
There is still so much that could be done with Star Wars that does not involve the Skywalkers, the Jedi, the Sith. It is not only a tale spanning an entire galaxy, it has history set up for thousands of Years. What about jumping ahead 75-100 years after ROTJ for the next story arc - a new republic, a new Jedi council, a new threat? What about backing up to the days of the war with Mandalore, or the Sith? So much to explore. So many worlds to show us, and so many unvisualized possibilities for new aliens...but we are starting to get the Humanoids painted 'x' color instead. I would be happy even seeing more use of Aliens already previously shown... there are just too many Humans in the DT.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 2:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Whill wrote: | | Sure, the faux battle between projection-Luke and Kylo Ben on Crait could have been better if it had been part of some unspecific better DT, but we could say the same thing for a lot of scenes. |
Indeed. It's long been my impression that the DT is almost a Frankenstein's monster version of a Star Wars trilogy, in that pieces were lopped off of other films and stitched together to make something that superficially resembles Star Wars, but just feels wrong, forced and/or artificial. The lightsaber fight is just one of several things that showed promise outside of the context of the films themselves, but fall flat when taken in light of the larger whole.
The Holdo Ram is another example, IMO. The idea of a hyperspace ram is great, and is an absolutely spectacular visual. Unfortunately, Holdo's "Force Point moment" is hugely watered down by Holdo's own unsympathetic character and weak story arc. If that had been, say, Ackbar's final move (instead of an ignominious off-screen death), it would've carried a lot more weight.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | The Holdo Ram is another example, IMO. The idea of a hyperspace ram is great, and is an absolutely spectacular visual. Unfortunately, Holdo's "Force Point moment" is hugely watered down by Holdo's own unsympathetic character and weak story arc. If that had been, say, Ackbar's final move (instead of an ignominious off-screen death), it would've carried a lot more weight. |
Yep, it should have been Ackbar. I mentioned that on page 1 of this thread.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
