Smoke and Mirrors

[Mamatried]

Smoke and Mirrors

Or as we better know it as Propaganda.

This made me thin about maybe the Imperial Militaty is actually not as large as they say it is.

lets take the 25 000 star destroyers a formidable force, more so than any death star.

Taking the "world" of star wars into consideration we hear often mentioned that a Legion is enough ground forces to take a planet/captial and to sieze control.

Futher more we see this apply to the GAR where the sector armies were administrative units, and the combat elements were the various corps like the 91st Mobile Reconnaissance.

these were alone formidable forces and most times during the slone wars we see one Corps pr system with regiments and battalions even securing planetary settlements etc.

While the Empire did Increase both Military Spending and increased the size of the Military we could think that when the Empire "saved" money on the fairly cheap "TIE Line" of star fighters then we can assume they would save money elsewhere too.

so with all the planets under imperial rule, the easiest and cheapest way to defend each world while also not making any world a possible threat to any other they would invest in the planetary Defense forces, mosr likely under occupation this would be Imperial Army.

I looked into histroy and the occupation of Norway ( my country) and becuse we bordered to Russia and as such were part of the Eastern front we had much more troops here than normally as part of the occupation force and the forces going east.

however looking into other countries we see that a fairly low number of troops is enough to maintain control of an occupied territory.
and if we translate this to star wars we have the various planets military forces, and usually during occupations these are integraded into the occupying force other along side law enforcement ando other "controling" agancies.

War is Decption, even when it is fought in the open. We know that misinfomation and both deflation and infaltion of forces are propaganda tools frequently used.

Saddam Hussain used the inflated force tool, though not sucessfully calining his million strong force waiting for the coallition in 91.

so amybe the Empire is far smaller than they clam to be, and this would make a lot of sense with the devatating blow to the empire at jakku where there was what at best 30 ships on the imperial side.

we can assume that the rebel alliance would not easily have the means to take on a star destroyer without a large scale mobilization, doing this 25 000 times seems a bit much for the "small" alliance force.

even after the fall of the empire, with some Moffs "closing down " thei sectors and controlling forces not sent to Jakku.
Hoever these forces even of large would not make sense to be larger than the imperial fleet at Scariff, or for the final blow to the rbels at Yaving and Endor.

So even with the loss of some few hundres of Destroyer there are still in the 10 000 + left out there.

we then have 5-6 years of fighting to retake some of the sectors, now with an alliance but not a stong one, they have just been liberated as to most worlds, they have struggles and suddenly going to a full time war eccomony is simply not possible, making the alliance quite Weak militarily in the first years.
the same years they then have removed 10 000+ destroyers.


or maybe the Empire used smoke and Mirrors, inflating their nubers but having enough destroyers and ships to "be there" when you look up making it appear as they are Omni present when in fact they are not.

So could the empire maybe be what the GAR was supposed to be meaning 1,2 Million plus an additional 5 millions that were oerders but nor produced.
I can easily see this 5 million beng drafted from human recruits while the 1,2 million clone army is depeleted by clones and numbers maintained and replaced with humans.

much of the military increase is the addtion of a seperate navy, a navy not part of the "army" as was the case with the GAR. meaning where clones manned ships and were part of the Republic Fleet, the fleeet is now human only and seperated from the army.

making a total army of 6,2 million + Planetary Defense Forces
and a seperate Navy of unknown number, but in the several millions considering the large crews on the imperial ships.

so I doubt we have the true numbers in 25 000 star destroyers, this will of course require support ships and other capital warship too growing this number even more.

yet most "fleets" we see are not 100+ ships but more in the 12-20 range

so maybe the Empire have some solid propaganda and the real numbers is less maybe a lot less than what is claimed.

any thoughts?

[pakman]

Well...

TLDR Version:
Source author error more than likely. But go with what ever works in your game. Your logic is sound.

Longer Version:
It is less fictional 'imperial propaganda" in my opinion as it is just the author of such fictional works (the people who write movies, games, novels, etc.) just not putting a lot of detailed thought into things.

I mean - we see this everywhere, in just about any fandom - and while we as gamers might get really detailed - we have to remember we have a lot more time and research than some of the creative focused folks might who write our beloved stories with deadlines, budgets and limited time to work on them.

I mean, as someone who actually works in logistics and shipping - the concept that the falcon could carry 100 metric tons is laughable (and don't even get me started on the bigger ships).

that and I remember the star ship construction rules for an old star trek rpg - where the authors decided that next gen enterprise should be cheaper then TOS enterprise, because "calculators and other high tech devices get cheaper as tech advances" - sure, mass assembled cheap items - but large complex durable machines, much less entire starships?

compare the cost of a carrier in 1945 to today....(spoiler: modern ships are about 10x more, even with inflation).

Anyway, yeah - I just ignore most stats that don't make sense (I mean - we have entire forums filled with house rules on various stat updates) unless there is a very serious impact to game balance.

End of my rant...back to your post...and my thoughts...

Yes, I think the 25k is not correct.

If you want to say that is the posted number in the game, but it is an imperial propaganda - I think that is reasonable.
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SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon....

[ThrorII]

I don't know if I consider it 'propaganda' how I view WEG Star Wars universe, but I agree that the Imperial Military is not as big as some authors or games say.

I see the WEG Sector Navy (24 Star Destroyers +others) not as a true SECTOR navy (meaning one per actual sector), but rather as the Clone Wars Sector Navy (meaning the navy in the Sector Army administrative districts, of which there were 20 in the galaxy).

Meaning that those 24 Star Destroyers are spread over dozens (maybe hundreds?) of sectors. This 'small navy' view both seems more like what we saw in the Original Trilogy (where the Emperor brings 20-30 star destroyers with him to Endor - its his Sector Fleet) as well as working best in an RPG game (how can the PCs make a difference when even destroying 250 star destroyers is only 1% of the empire's might....)
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"The internet is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural." - Sheev Zuckerberg

[CRMcNeill]

Amusingly enough, the gang in the Fractalsponge Discord (some of whom jokingly describe themselves as the Cult of the Neo-Saxtonian Maximalism) are quite insistent that a realistic version of the SWU would require the Imperial Military to be vastly larger than what's presented in most media, and that we just never see most of the really big stuff on screen.

While I'm not in full agreement, I'm also not going to take the EU's citations at face value, either, as the EU is replete with provable errors, like the 8km Executor. I'll settle for a happy medium where the Imperial Military is appreciably larger than the "official" version.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Whill]

[Whill]

[Mamatried]

I know that not all of view rebesl and cw and other animated shows equally, however related possibly to this could be from one episode of Rebels where a small independent crew of "kids" thought a cruiser was a star destroyer, and if we consider cruiser of the same shape like the Vindicator and the varianst like the imobilizer 418, seen in rebels.

Now if we do count these "pocket destroyers" if you will sharing the general shape only scaled down, as well as other captal ships that the general galactic average ciitizen would call one then maybe the numbers would at least be in the 10 000+ but that too is a strech in numbers imo.

However it does appear that many of the imperial "ground assault forces" are in fact stormtrooper legions, and onboard a star destroyer, carrying a full legion and with the speed of the destroyer these can deploy anywhere in the galaxy within a very short time, something that can help facilitate the imo myth of the 25 000 star destroyers, and counting the support vessels and the smaller cruisers and the like the numbers will simpley be so huge that the empire and tarking doectrine does not make any sense, and ad stated above, deploy 1000 desptryers and the problem any problem is dealt with.

And each of these having the ability to Base Delta Zero bombardement being doing an alteraan without the explotion.

However the other issue can of cousre be a result of conflicting information and numners by different authors, and compiling them giving numbers that may not make sense.

I would think the true number is more in the region of 4-6 Destroyers pr Sector, with possibly as many yes as 1 Super SSD pr Ooversector

And mamybe even 1 fleet pr Sector with the 4-6 SSDs being the flagships
supported by a number of smaller ships, for quite a large fleet

with systems patrolled with much smaller forces

[Yora]

Sci-fi writers should never use numbers with more than three digits. It always ends up embarassing.
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"Adventure? Eh... Excitement? Eh... A Jedi does not crave these things."

Iridium Moons Retro-futuristic Space Opera

[Mamatried]

What if the bulk of the imperial military is planetary defense forces taked with defense of individual worlds.

then a mobile force of fleets and army assets that is the rapid assault force, capable of strinking anywhere and fast.

3-4 such forces that includes ISD and ground assault element will be very effective in maining control and the "terror" in the controlled systems, as well using said forces to easily overtake other systems

[Yora]

Defend against who?

More like Local Population Supression forces, and I am sure the Empire has lots of those. Typically it's considered police work, but for a setting like Star Wars there doesn't need to be much of a distinction between the two.
_________________
"Adventure? Eh... Excitement? Eh... A Jedi does not crave these things."

Iridium Moons Retro-futuristic Space Opera

[Mamatried]

[Whill]

[CRMcNeill]

I'm working on something slightly different, mainly as a way to incorporate some of the ISD's "bigger brothers", as created by Fractalsponge.

The general premise is that larger fleets in the Core will be composed primarily of more specialized units, with the Allegiance as a "battleship" (lots of guns, minimal fighters). the Impellor as a fleet carrier, the Procursator as a fast anti-ship torpedo launcher, etc. Imperators would be more of a multi-role platform designed for deployment to lower priority regions where a fleet of mixed capital ships would be overkill. Larger vessels like the Bellator or Compellor would serve as sector or oversector flagships, or would be grouped into large enforcer taskforces to insure the continued loyalty of smaller, less powerful fleet units.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Mamatried]

I have been thinking of the larger ones as well, the super classes, and I have landed on these being the flagships.

Most fleets still being dominated by ISD class ships,

I see the star wars fleets much like earth-like navies.

I can easily see the IDS filling the battleship role, with the cruisers and other warships in support, much like we see in some of the fellts today.

So I am wrking on how many, which ones and how they in my glaxy fits. I can easiely see the executor class being some of the largest, with the belator in between, but this would to me be only a few ships throughout the galaxy, again besuce of the power.

I would say that a mere dozen even 1/2 a dozen Super Star Sestryers, belators, executors or others would be a na easy match to a Death Satar in power and maybe more deadly and effectve in the deplyments.

so I personally reduces these to more like a handful total with most types counted, I can not see more than maybe 10 total. as this again would render the DS as nothing much, if that.

Now we can argue the buulding of these after DS1 if so we have not much time and as such I am defeinately thinking few in numbers very very few.


However in this there is something I have not considered , and that is the term "stat sestroyer" and what is actually meant.

Is it meant to be the battleship, a balltle cruiser, a heavy cruiser, a destroyer oor what?

Now if we count in cruisers, who look a lot like the IDS, like the vidicator, or even the imobilazor 418s and more er see large, huge starships with terrible power.

For most galactic citizens a a huge warship is a huge warship, and a catch all term is used, in this case star destroyer.

if we take this into consideration we could maybe argue that the imperial fleet's 25 000 whcih is mentuone in scourses, ot the several 10s of thousands, amiign it a 30 000 and up numner I think cn be explained by this.

Local exposire to "oversized" warships
comman man knowleged, will the commone man know if theat hige ship is a star destroyer or is it a vidicator cruiser, they look alike, identical almost except the size.

Again in Star Wars Rebeles we hear a joung crew, who calls most ship larger than the arquittens for star destoyers, and is then shown one and they go .......wow,

Meaning that to most the large imperial warship is the Star Destroyer, and with that and the size, I can maybe get behind the numbers somewhat more.

I would limit the number to 300m+ warships and with that I can maybe accpte the 25.000 number total

[Mamatried]

I recently saw some concet art of a Death Star that had hangars for Star Destroyers, and if that is a possiblity then I can say it fits with the tarkin Doctrine, the DS despite it's planet Killing capacity seems to only be able to target One planet/target, and with a capablity to deploy star destroyers enmasse, then I can see this weapon being a true terror, and I can eaasily see a capscity of 1000, amyb even as much as 5000 ISD and Cruiser size crafts.

nothing we see in canon really contradicts this, we see the DS shuttle bays, and we see that the room for larger ships is there.

Now if we then look to the second folly, DS II we can maybe argue the same, though of course the loss of DS I and if carrying 1000s of ISD size crafts, will be more than a dent to the Imperial Military, and if they repeated the folly wich we know militaries do sometimes, we can maybe argue that the DS II even unfinished would house at least the same number, even of unfisnied due to being significantly larger.

So if we then blow up these two Death Stars and the "possible" complimet of large captal ships, we can argue that maybe even the 25 000 was at one time a real numner but the majorty being lost with the Destruction of the two Death Stars, this will also make the destruction of the Death Stars be even more significant

The Death star was not just a mobil weapon , but a mobile Imperial Wolrld, a Headquarter, a carrier, a army base, a expeditionary world, a mobile Imperial Center, with the capabilites of ebing the "full empire" with the full army and navy might, all contrilled by the monbile world (base)

if the Death Star had the capacity to carry large numners this can explain both the numners and why they are no more....