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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16320 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:31 am Post subject: Combining Melee and Brawling |
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Someone over on the Facebook Group made a suggestion recently to the effect that Melee and Brawling were sufficiently similar that they could easily be combined. Since I've already done that with Melee Parry and Brawling Parry (the Defense skill), it would only be a minor step to do the same with the attack skills. For one thing, it would greatly simplify the various close combat scenes where meleeists mix in kicks or punches with their weapon strikes. That way, rather than having to roll both skills, you just roll one close combat skill (I'm leaning toward calling it Melee at the moment) that covers it all. The Defense skill already has modifiers for armed vs unarmed, so this would sync nicely with that.
I'm not quite ready to post a skill write-up yet, but I figured I'd post the basic concept for feedback. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mamatried Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1861 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Combining the two makes a lot of sense.
And even though armed and unarmed melee is different the rules here for this are easy enough, add the weapon's modifiers to the roll as if using the raw melee combat skill.
I can of course see other skills being both mechanically similar enough and logically similar enough, like some gunnery and piloting skills and others |
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KageRyu Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 1391 Location: Lost in the cracks
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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While I would agree that it is reasonable to combine Melee and Melee Parry, or Brawling and Brawling Parry, I would disagree that Melee and Brawling are at all alike and should be combined. While one generally learns how to attack and defend with a blade simultaneously or how to block and grapple or throw a punch, fighting unarmed and fighting with a sword are vastly different skill sets. I have already been a bit weary that Melee is so comprehensive of all close combat arms already as fighting with Pole arm and fighting with a dirk are worlds apart in terms of technique, but this is true of many other D6 skills and what specializations are for. There is no similarity of form or technique that brings brawling in line with any sort of armed close quarters fighting however. A good boxer might not know a thing about swordsmanship. I would strongly urge very careful research and consideration as this would make a single do all combat skill for offense and defense. _________________ "There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10435 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Combining skills |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | Someone over on the Facebook Group made a suggestion recently to the effect that Melee and Brawling were sufficiently similar that they could easily be combined. Since I've already done that with Melee Parry and Brawling Parry (the Defense skill), it would only be a minor step to do the same with the attack skills. For one thing, it would greatly simplify the various close combat scenes where meleeists mix in kicks or punches with their weapon strikes. That way, rather than having to roll both skills, you just roll one close combat skill (I'm leaning toward calling it Melee at the moment) that covers it all. The Defense skill already has modifiers for armed vs unarmed, so this would sync nicely with that.
I'm not quite ready to post a skill write-up yet, but I figured I'd post the basic concept for feedback. |
It's not a bad option for those wanting to condense the skill list of this cinematic reality game.
KageRyu wrote: | While I would agree that it is reasonable to combine Melee and Melee Parry, or Brawling and Brawling Parry, I would disagree that Melee and Brawling are at all alike and should be combined. While one generally learns how to attack and defend with a blade simultaneously or how to block and grapple or throw a punch, fighting unarmed and fighting with a sword are vastly different skill sets. I have already been a bit weary that Melee is so comprehensive of all close combat arms already as fighting with Pole arm and fighting with a dirk are worlds apart in terms of technique, but this is true of many other D6 skills and what specializations are for. There is no similarity of form or technique that brings brawling in line with any sort of armed close quarters fighting however. A good boxer might not know a thing about swordsmanship. I would strongly urge very careful research and consideration as this would make a single do all combat skill for offense and defense. |
There are a few different ways to slice the melee/brawling pizza. He is combining both defensive skills with each other and both offensive skills with each other. You suggest combining both brawling skills with each other and both melee weapon skills with each other. That's what I did.
I can see it both ways, but I think I will stick with what I have because there are precedents for doing it that way: IAG and D6 Space both made that simplification. And range defense (dodge) was combined with running in my game, to match literally every other kind of movement is handled in RAW. I don't have any motivation to combine defense skills with each other, but I can see how others might like it that way. _________________ *
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Mamatried Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1861 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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I can see something where melee and brawling are combined under maybe a melee skill that includes parry and imo lightsaber as a spciality free for "jedi" characters and maybe restricted to anyone else.
I can see that unarmed attacks do less than STR damage unless trained, maybe -1D
I am far stronger than what my punching power would indicate and this goes for most untrianed punchers.
Traning Basic BRAWLING will simply cost 1 cp and then is like any other skill from there and you deal full str damage +item/ability bonus.
With martial Arts, you can deal addtitonal damage even above your strength to +1D.
this is in addtion to any danage bonus from martial Atrts techniques.
Uskilled Armed melee is the same as with utrained Brawling, -1D strength, but you do get the full item bonus.
smae here 1 cp and the skill will be considered traied for the full strenght bonus.
An armed Martial Arts can allow and addtional +1D to damage.
Ech 3D in the Brawling/Melee Skill adds +1 pip to Dogde for a +2 with 6D, and +1D at 9D
the Dodge synergy could be changed of course, but when fighting both unarmed and armed you do duck and dodge blows and as such you should get some synergy from tranied melee/brawling/martila Arts |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16320 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:35 am Post subject: |
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KageRyu wrote: | There is no similarity of form or technique that brings brawling in line with any sort of armed close quarters fighting however. |
In a realistic setting, I would agree, but when trying to represent close combat in a cinematic setting, having it all boil down to one skill greatly simplifies things, and combat should be fast-paced and easy to roll. I'm working on a results-based brawling version of my earlier Dueling Sabers lightsaber combat system, and there's significant overlap between the two, to the point where it's simpler to just combine the two, with modifiers for armed vs unarmed, then allow people to specialize in one form or another, or take dice in (A) Martial Arts. It's pretty nebulous at the moment... _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16320 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Combining skills |
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Whill wrote: | There are a few different ways to slice the melee/brawling pizza. He is combining both defensive skills with each other and both offensive skills with each other. You suggest combining both brawling skills with each other and both melee weapon skills with each other. That's what I did.
I can see it both ways, but I think I will stick with what I have because there are precedents for doing it that way: IAG and D6 Space both made that simplification. And range defense (dodge) was combined with running in my game, to match literally every other kind of movement is handled in RAW. I don't have any motivation to combine defense skills with each other, but I can see how others might like it that way. |
I'm currently leaning toward a hybrid of the RAW and Dueling Blades (although I am somewhat stymied at the moment). W/r/t Dodge, I turned it into an Advanced Skill and nerfed it so that it can only be used in combination with a Move Action (or possibly in combination with Cover). Normal Movement generates a Speed Modifier for characters, but actually Dodging enemy fire would require special training, thus the (A) Skill.
The general idea I'm looking at is a system where a combatant in a 1v1 fight, whether armed, unarmed or some combination thereof, get one Melee roll and one Defense roll to represent an entire round of attack and defense, subject to MAPs and CAPs (since both skills are being used concurrently). They would also have the option of eschewing one or the other and going full attack or full defense. This mimics narrative descriptions of close combat that I've encountered in other media, and also allows for a greater degree of granularity, in that different Martial Arts forms can be generalist or specialize in either attack or defense.
The problem I'm running into is how to combine that with the Dueling Blades rule, where a single opposed roll determines the result of an entire round of combat. Adding an additional opposed roll going the opposite direction really throws things off, and I don't have a solution yet... _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16320 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Mamatried wrote: | I can see something where melee and brawling are combined under maybe a melee skill that includes parry and imo lightsaber as a spciality free for "jedi" characters and maybe restricted to anyone else. |
Conceptually, I folded Lightsaber into Melee Combat a long time ago, as there's nothing substantively different between the two to warrant what is essentially just an energy sword being completely separate from all the other swords. The various Lightsaber Forms would be Advanced Skills with the Specialization of Melee: Lightsaber as one of their prerequisites. IIRC, Whill has Lightsaber as an Advanced Skill, but I don't recall all the specifics.
Quote: | I can see that unarmed attacks do less than STR damage unless trained, maybe -1D |
I plan to use the Strength Damage (1/2 Strength or 1/2 Lifting, whichever is higher) rule from Open D6, as well as having unarmed attacks do Stun Damage, unless the character has Martial Arts training.
Quote: | the Dodge synergy could be changed of course, but when fighting both unarmed and armed you do duck and dodge blows and as such you should get some synergy from tranied melee/brawling/martila Arts |
After some discussion with Naaman, I've come to the conclusion that Dodge is less about consciously avoiding individual attacks than it is about moving in such a way as to make yourself a more difficult target, and that unless you are really good at it, it will always be a better choice to take cover and return fire than it will be to stand out in the open Dodging.
The difference between my Dodge Advanced Skill and Defense is that Defense is used against attacks the character can perceive with their natural senses; things like bullets or blaster bolts are moving too fast for it to be used against them (although some Martial Art forms will allow for deflection of arrows and such). However, because Force users have the ability to sense attacks before they happen, they will have the ability to use their Defense skill against bullets, blasters and the like. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14213 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:43 am Post subject: |
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KageRyu wrote: | While I would agree that it is reasonable to combine Melee and Melee Parry, or Brawling and Brawling Parry, I would disagree that Melee and Brawling are at all alike and should be combined. While one generally learns how to attack and defend with a blade simultaneously or how to block and grapple or throw a punch, fighting unarmed and fighting with a sword are vastly different skill sets. I have already been a bit weary that Melee is so comprehensive of all close combat arms already as fighting with Pole arm and fighting with a dirk are worlds apart in terms of technique, but this is true of many other D6 skills and what specializations are for. There is no similarity of form or technique that brings brawling in line with any sort of armed close quarters fighting however. A good boxer might not know a thing about swordsmanship. I would strongly urge very careful research and consideration as this would make a single do all combat skill for offense and defense. |
My thoughts exactly. Hell while SOME martial arts, teach weapons too, generally most boxing/wrestling classes or the like, do NOT teach melee weapons.
CRMcNeill wrote: | KageRyu wrote: | There is no similarity of form or technique that brings brawling in line with any sort of armed close quarters fighting however. |
In a realistic setting, I would agree, but when trying to represent close combat in a cinematic setting, having it all boil down to one skill greatly simplifies things, and combat should be fast-paced and easy to roll. I'm working on a results-based brawling version of my earlier Dueling Sabers lightsaber combat system, and there's significant overlap between the two, to the point where it's simpler to just combine the two, with modifiers for armed vs unarmed, then allow people to specialize in one form or another, or take dice in (A) Martial Arts. It's pretty nebulous at the moment... |
DO you likewise, combine all 'ranged weapon' skills, into one overarching "SHOOT THEM" skill, such as blaster, missile weapons, bowcaster" and the like?? _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16320 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Hell while SOME martial arts, teach weapons too, generally most boxing/wrestling classes or the like, do NOT teach melee weapons. |
If you want to focus on a specific martial form that is exclusively one or the other, that's what Specializations are for.
Quote: | DO you likewise, combine all 'ranged weapon' skills, into one overarching "SHOOT THEM" skill, such as blaster, missile weapons, bowcaster" and the like?? |
If I did, I would probably have mentioned it at some point.
That being said, there's a fair argument to be made that Blasters and Firearms (for example) bear enough similarity in operation that they don't need to be separate skills. I've considered tossing both in favor of a Pistols and Rifles skill. Realistically, there should be a lot of synergy between the various point-and-shoot skills, but I'm not sure how best to represent it.
I've considered a variety of alternate rules for Specialization, with a goal toward having them stack with the base skill. For example, a character with 5D in Blaster and 2D in Blaster: Pistols would stack the two for a total of 7D. An idea that occurred to me recently was to allow the character to cross-link their Specialization dice to other similar skills. Say that the above character also has 4D in Firearms; because of their Specialization in Pistols, I would consider allowing them to stack their Specialization dice when attempting to fire a Slugthrower pistol, representing their familiarity with that particular sub-type.
Alternately, since 1/2 Skill House Rules have been proliferating from the D6 Space Strength Damage rule, it could be a bonus of 1/2 the Specialization. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10435 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Combining skills |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | Whill wrote: | There are a few different ways to slice the melee/brawling pizza. He is combining both defensive skills with each other and both offensive skills with each other. You suggest combining both brawling skills with each other and both melee weapon skills with each other. That's what I did.
I can see it both ways, but I think I will stick with what I have because there are precedents for doing it that way: IAG and D6 Space both made that simplification. And range defense (dodge) was combined with running in my game, to match literally every other kind of movement is handled in RAW. I don't have any motivation to combine defense skills with each other, but I can see how others might like it that way. |
...The problem I'm running into is how to combine that with the Dueling Blades rule, where a single opposed roll determines the result of an entire round of combat. Adding an additional opposed roll going the opposite direction really throws things off, and I don't have a solution yet... |
Well, combining melee attack and defense into the same skill eliminates the problem with Dueling Blades only using a single roll. Just saying.
That being said, I'm mainly only interested in using Dueling Blades for lightsaber duels (strictly lightsaber vs lightsaber). Other melees (lightsaber v non-lightsaber, both non-lightsaber melee weapons, unarmed brawling, etc.) never last long and I never really want them to, so I'm good with using RAW as I have tweaked it for those. Dueling Blades can help extend a lightsaber duel to focus drama on it, which should almost never be an unimportant event in an adventure. Since I have made lightsaber an advanced skill, that can be the distinction for not using Dueling Blades for battles with non-lightsaber weapons. _________________ *
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Ninja-Bear Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Sep 2016 Posts: 209
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Combining Melee and Brawling |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | Someone over on the Facebook Group made a suggestion recently to the effect that Melee and Brawling were sufficiently similar that they could easily be combined. Since I've already done that with Melee Parry and Brawling Parry (the Defense skill), it would only be a minor step to do the same with the attack skills. For one thing, it would greatly simplify the various close combat scenes where meleeists mix in kicks or punches with their weapon strikes. That way, rather than having to roll both skills, you just roll one close combat skill (I'm leaning toward calling it Melee at the moment) that covers it all. The Defense skill already has modifiers for armed vs unarmed, so this would sync nicely with that.
I'm not quite ready to post a skill write-up yet, but I figured I'd post the basic concept for feedback. |
I see no problem with it. I have several other game systems which really are this. |
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Mamatried Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1861 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 8:15 am Post subject: |
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I can see a Melee Skill that inculdes Unarmed Brawling, basic armed melee as well as martial arts.
Unarmed Brawling can have damage increases and such through martial Arts thechniques, and I think the normal Martial Arts rules here can apply.
the armed martial arts do not really differ here as they still fooolw the techniquis if any and adds the weapon damage.
untrained you actually do NOT do full STR in damage but maybe a -2
once you have placed a pip in melee you are of course trained like any other skill.
but the -2 to damage would make sense where a trained puncher punches more effectively and thus deals more "damagage" than someone untrained.
Keeping in this case Martial Arts as Advanced skills, I still Need 5D in my melee Skill to take the Martial Art and use this.
Melee/Brawling Parry is of course incuded in this, some martial arts techniques will have defensive techniques aswell as offesive ones.
combing the 4 skills Brawling, BParry, and both melee combat and parry are imo not a big deal to do as they in many ways are the same skill.
this of course makes me think of other skills that can be combined, and I am sure if that strange gray matter works as intended then perhaps there are several skills that can be combined, lessening all out book keeping |
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Grimace Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004 Posts: 729 Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm in the same mind as garhkal and KageRyu. Blending Melee and Unarmed Combat into one is like mixing two things that really aren't similar other than the fact that it's close combat. A person skilled in unarmed combat is not automatically skilled in the use of melee weapons. The method of fighting is very different.
That would be like having Starfighter Piloting being grouped in with Capital Ship Piloting, all because they happen in space. Very different in how each is done.
There's a point where you can trim D6 down to so simple that you lose much of the detail that made character development interesting. All characters will start to look the same by reducing the skills and combining the skills.
So, yes, you are welcome to do whatever you want in YOUR game. But I offer this note of caution at reducing things down too much.
I would suggest, as KageRyu mentioned, that you blend Melee and Melee Parry together into one skill and Brawling and Brawling Parry together into another skill. Learning offense and defense in each method makes a lot more sense than it does crossing methods of attack and defense entirely. |
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Darklighter79 Captain
Joined: 27 May 2018 Posts: 529
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:46 am Post subject: |
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I've seen this type of simplification in the newest Alien RPG - only 12 skills (like close combat, ranged combat, pilot).
But Alien is a very different setting: survival horror with often claustrophobic environment. Basically there's the same set of characters (pilot, marine, corp exec, medic, etc.) and the goal is just, well, survival, not a hero's journey.
Still, if it works - good. _________________ Don’t Let the Rules Get in the Way of a Good Story. |
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