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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 440
Location: Arizona, USA
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 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I had been playing this per Blue Vader for as long as I have been GRINGO. |
I was just rereading this thread and saw this. Clearly a case of auto correct, but I have no idea what the correct word should have been... maybe "PLAYING" but it is so far off the word that popped up, I am not sure what happened. Funny, though. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Also, Whill, regarding your Initiative Stat, would you allow 1/2 Search to be substituted for Perception on Initiative rolls?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill, regarding your Initiative Stat, would you allow 1/2 Search to be substituted for Perception on Initiative rolls? |
If someone used my Initiative rule, sure they could do that, or more in the spirit of the rule do a 'pip per die' thing with search. Remember it is not only Perception but Dexterity is a big factor. But for me, my Initiative rule is yet another reason to not do the 'Perception or half-search' thing for passive awareness.
I thought it about it a lot last night and slept on it. As you agreed, doing it for physical awareness would logically mean doing it for social awareness too, and that would be adding two new derived stats to my character sheet, since having a high search or discernment would create a passive awareness stat with a die code value in between the base attribute and the active skill. I have a Damage Resistance stat on my sheet that includes the half-stamina option, but that is different because several species have bonuses to Damage Resistance and there is room to put natural and armored there, so there is more of a reason to have that stat on the sheet.
But ultimately, while it is not unreasonable for it to work such that a very high active awareness could boost passive awareness if a GM really wanted it to, there is really no reason it has to work that way. Your half-search suggestion is a good compromise between the editions, but I have no real reason to even partially to honor this oddball mechanical change that happened between the two 2e core books, wasn't even mentioned in the 2e Rules Upgrade, and was disregarded for future D6 games. Like I've said before, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
There is nothing wrong or gamebreaking with having passive awareness (both physical and social) be base attribute, and having the two skills for active awareness. If a character concept should have a high physical awareness, the player can give them a high Perception. If they want physical awareness to be a little bit higher than base Perception, I've got a simple advantage for that. If it is important for the character concept to have a good physical awareness but not a good social awareness, I have an advantage option for that too. Both advantages slightly boost Initiative too. This is really good enough for me. There is no need to complicate it any further.
Search is a valuable skill even with it only being active physical awareness. That said, I'm certain I've never ran a PC that had their search skill raised to over double their Perception attribute, even for a 2D Perception character. It would be so rare anyway so I decided I'm not going to bother with it.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:43 am Post subject: |
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Due to the prevalence of enemies with good sneak, i have seen quite a few pcs, who had HIGH searches, just so they COULD detect those ambushes...
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Due to the prevalence of enemies with good sneak, i have seen quite a few pcs, who had HIGH searches, just so they COULD detect those ambushes... |
Right. And if the PC has a reason to expect an ambush so is actively watching for one, that would use the search skill in all versions of the rules.
One question raised here is, should a GM secretly roll search for the PC if they are not actively watching for an ambush (as in R&E), or should the GM make a secret base Perception roll (as in the other core books)?
CRMcNeill proposed the compromise of 'Perception or one-half search, whichever is higher' which would give PCs with a very high search a boost to passive awareness over base Perception but still not be full search.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Due to the prevalence of enemies with good sneak, i have seen quite a few pcs, who had HIGH searches, just so they COULD detect those ambushes... |
Right. And if the PC has a reason to expect an ambush so is actively watching for one, that would use the search skill in all versions of the rules. |
There's a mil-sci-fi novel called Redliners, by David Drake, in which the infantry are all equipped with what's effectively a droid brain built into their helmets, along with a bunch of sensor arrays, and the droid's only job is to roll its Search skill once per round. In the SWU, that might be too expensive to mass-produce for stormtrooper armor, but it's more feasible for something like a Mandalorian clan.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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IF they are sending out such sensor signals, i HIGHLY DOUBT they are also sneaking around themselves...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | IF they are sending out such sensor signals, i HIGHLY DOUBT they are also sneaking around themselves... |
So, in your haste to shoot down the idea, you forgot about Passive Sensors?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:44 pm Post subject: sensors tangent |
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| garhkal wrote: | | IF they are sending out such sensor signals, i HIGHLY DOUBT they are also sneaking around themselves... |
Sensor signals only matter if others have sensors to sense them.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | So, in your haste to shoot down the idea, you forgot about Passive Sensors? |
Sensor rules already capture the difference between passive and active sensors, with active usually having a couple more dice. Sensor rules in R&E match Blue Vader, which is even more evidence supporting that R&E moving passive character awareness to the search skill was a wrong move.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Due to the prevalence of enemies with good sneak, i have seen quite a few pcs, who had HIGH searches, just so they COULD detect those ambushes... |
Right. And if the PC has a reason to expect an ambush so is actively watching for one, that would use the search skill in all versions of the rules. |
There's a mil-sci-fi novel called Redliners, by David Drake, in which the infantry are all equipped with what's effectively a droid brain built into their helmets, along with a bunch of sensor arrays, and the droid's only job is to roll its Search skill once per round. |
Search skill once per round? Did this Redliners novel get adapted to D6 somewhere?
Are you saying that these helmet sensors constantly search for possible ambushes? In D6 rules (including R&E), actively looking for ambushes would not be passive sensors. That would search mode and restricted to a specific 90° arc (but four soldiers in a tight formation could cover each arc). Passive sensor awareness would be passive or at most scan mode. If you're saying that the helmet sensors just alert the soldiers to things nearby they may not otherwise being able to perceive with their own natural senses (such as a life form on the other side of that nearby wall), sure, I can see that being passive or scan mode (passive sacrificing range and sensing ability for less power consumption and more sensor stealth).
But using personal sensor tech like this wouldn't have any bearing on the GM's decision to have the search skill include passive awareness or not, without significantly house ruling sensor and/or character awareness rules. The AI helmet tech would be separate sensors rolls from the character's awareness rolls, unless the tech's stats were written up to instead just boost the character rolls. The fact that there is AI in it suggests it would be separate sensor rolls made by the AI.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | In the SWU, that might be too expensive to mass-produce for stormtrooper armor, but it's more feasible for something like a Mandalorian clan. |
Ugh, I imagine there is a big surge in players wanting to play Mandalorian characters now. I personally have only had one Mandalorian PC in my game over the years.
I give stormtroopers a MFTAS which provides targeting assistance and removes some penalties in some situations. I've also added a fiber optic system that restores lost peripheral vision (even with no power to the helmet - it would make sense that other helmeted characters' helmets also have this feature). Some helmets may have non-targeting sensors of some form, but I definitely wouldn't add AI to anyone's helmet, just to save the character on MAPs. But then again, I don't run characters that always wear armor. I don't run military campaigns, and armor is only a 'sometimes' thing in the game. Fancy tech (outside of PC ships, lightsabers, and supporting droid characters) are viewed as expendable in the plot so tends not to last very long.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | IF they are sending out such sensor signals, i HIGHLY DOUBT they are also sneaking around themselves... |
So, in your haste to shoot down the idea, you forgot about Passive Sensors? |
If they're scanning every round, even WITH passive sensors, they're still making an energy source that others could detect.. BUT like Whill said, that's IF THEY Also have sensors..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | If they're scanning every round, even WITH passive sensors, they're still making an energy source that others could detect.. BUT like Whill said, that's IF THEY Also have sensors.. |
That's like saying that soldiers shouldn't use Night-Vision Goggles because sensors can detect the batteries. Any energy signature put out by shielded electronic systems inside a helmet is going to be minimal to the point where detection at all but point-blank ranges will be Heroic+.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: sensors tangent |
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| Whill wrote: | | Quote: | | There's a mil-sci-fi novel called Redliners, by David Drake, in which the infantry are all equipped with what's effectively a droid brain built into their helmets, along with a bunch of sensor arrays, and the droid's only job is to roll its Search skill once per round. |
Search skill once per round? Did this Redliners novel get adapted to D6 somewhere? |
No, that's game-speak for "the droid brain is constantly monitoring sensors, and alerting the wearer if it detects something noteworthy."
| Quote: | | Are you saying that these helmet sensors constantly search for possible ambushes? |
Sensors in the sense that it's using enhanced vision, audio and chemical detectors, which are analogous to a character's senses of sight, hearing and smell. This, in turn, would be expressed as a droid brain whose only job is to roll Search once per round. For the purposes of this discussion, it would allow the wearer to effectively make a Search roll every round without the MAP, since "someone else" is making the roll.
| Quote: | | Some helmets may have non-targeting sensors of some form, but I definitely wouldn't add AI to anyone's helmet, just to save the character on MAPs. |
I was mostly bringing it up in the context of the discussion of passive vs. active perception/search.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | If they're scanning every round, even WITH passive sensors, they're still making an energy source that others could detect.. BUT like Whill said, that's IF THEY Also have sensors.. |
That's like saying that soldiers shouldn't use Night-Vision Goggles because sensors can detect the batteries. Any energy signature put out by shielded electronic systems inside a helmet is going to be minimal to the point where detection at all but point-blank ranges will be Heroic+. |
OUR current tech isn't that good, to locate batteries.. SW tech on the other hand, should be able to...
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Mamatried
Commodore
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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many RP systems use passive perception either as a seperate perception stat or as GM rolled when needed.
The first option maybe a little iffy as to D6, as any skill not being possible to increase ( normally) would be an attribute default. though I am sure there can be special abilities etc that can add pips and dice to this.
Of course for GM to consatntly roll Perceptions for all the players is a drag.
I can imagine maybe using a "group" perception rolled at the beginning of each round, any difficutly lets ssay very easy and easy you automatically notice, others you can not at all notice passively.
a better roll maybe raise this to a medium difficulty and below, but anything else needs a active roll.
so the group usues the highest perception attribute, this belongs to TEOR who has 4D, the roll is 18, allowing for all easy and very easy difficutlies to be detected in this round(or encounter) or in theis scene. All other ways of detection must be done actively and by the individual. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | OUR current tech isn't that good, to locate batteries.. SW tech on the other hand, should be able to... |
Based on what? Characters sneak around with electronic equipment (blasters, comlinks, etc) all the time. The only tech in-universe that presents as capable of that level of detection (the weapon scanners used in the Corporate Sector) have to be within a couple meters.
Plus you're talking about a miniscule sensor blip mixed in with hundreds or even thousands of other mundane ones (trees, animals, rocks that've been out in the sun all day, and that's before you get into an urban environment where electronics are as common as dirt). Even assuming sensors are sensitive enough to pick up electronic equipment (and remember, said tech will likely incorporate some degree of emission control on account of it being designed for military use), there's still the matter of sorting it from the myriad of other electronic signals said sensors will be picking up.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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