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Hellbent
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Joined: 12 Feb 2022
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 Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:37 pm Post subject: Melee weapon damage cap list? |
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Hey,all.
Quick question; was there ever any official list of weapon damage caps that included all Melee weapons? If not, was a reason why some Melee weapons have damage caps and some don’t ever presented?
Tried a search but nothing came up on this. Am I odd that I find it a bit strange?
Thanks! |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Melee weapon damage cap list? |
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| Hellbent wrote: | Quick question; was there ever any official list of weapon damage caps that included all Melee weapons? If not, was a reason why some Melee weapons have damage caps and some don’t ever presented?
Tried a search but nothing came up on this. Am I odd that I find it a bit strange? |
First, what non-lightsaber melee weapons did not have damage caps in 2e, and what are he sources for those weapons?
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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The Coyn'skar, Sat'skar, and D'skar for the Coynites from Planets of the Galaxy Volume 3, off the top of my head. They didn't have damage caps, so we're devastating in the hands of a 5D Strength Coynite. A 7D Strength Esoomian with a Coyn'skar causes damage equivalent to a thermal detonator in the center of its blast radius! I believe there are a few others without damage caps, but I would have to check references to confirm.
Last edited by Dr. Bidlo on Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | The Coyn'skar, Sat'skar, and D'skar for the Coynites from Planets of the Galaxy Volume 3, off the top of my head. They didn't have damage caps, so we're devastating in the hands of a 5D Strength Coynite. A 7D Strength Esoomian with a Sat'skar causes damage equivalent to a thermal detonator in the center of its blast radius! |
Three from the same source. Did any other melee weapons in the same sections as those have damage caps? If not, then my first guess would be that it was simply an author error of omission that was not caught by the editor.
| Hellbent wrote: | | Am I odd that I find it a bit strange? |
I would not find the above to be strange. The game line has a lot of errors like this.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I believe there are a few others without damage caps, but I would have to check references to confirm. |
If you or anyone finds any other examples, please share the weapons and sources here.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:02 am Post subject: |
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Honestly, if one were to implement the Strength Damage rule from D6 Space, there's a case to be made for removing Damage Caps entirely and just going with the listed damage.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | Thanks.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | The Coyn'skar, Sat'skar, and D'skar for the Coynites from Planets of the Galaxy Volume 3, off the top of my head. They didn't have damage caps, so we're devastating in the hands of a 5D Strength Coynite. A 7D Strength Esoomian with a Sat'skar causes damage equivalent to a thermal detonator in the center of its blast radius! |
Three from the same source. Did any other melee weapons in the same sections as those have damage caps? If not, then my first guess would be that it was simply an author error of omission that was not caught by the editor.
| Hellbent wrote: | | Am I odd that I find it a bit strange? |
I would not find the above to be strange. The game line has a lot of errors like this.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I believe there are a few others without damage caps, but I would have to check references to confirm. |
If you or anyone finds any other examples, please share the weapons and sources here. |
Well doing a scan through Gry's Complete weapons collection book, i see the following info;
For the 'brawling weapons (shock boxing gloves and the like)
Combat, Shock boxing gloves and Stun gauntlets, they all 3 have no limited max.. Though one is a backwards conversion from the d20 sourcebook, one is from pirates and privateers, and the other (the shock boxing gloves) lists no source.
From page 4 of that PDF..
Then we have the Yuuzan Vong fighting claws that give a 6d max damage (NJO sourcebook), Neuro-shoch hand has nothing listed, same for the repulse hand (both from Crackens field guide, but the Juggernaut droid arm does (at 6d as well).
All from page 5 of that PDF
For melee weapons, we have, the Whip, Club and Staff from the SW sourcebook, all listed as no damage cap, the Gaffi stick, from the Trilogy sourcebook with none, same for the Harvest blade, from the Coruscant sourcebook. Also, the Snap baton from Rules of engagement doesn't have one.
BUT The light mace, which is again a back conversion from the d20 sourcebook does, at 5d+1 damage.
All from page 6
The next page, we have the Standard hatchet, Knife, Bayonet, Ftf Knife (Ssi=ruuvi hand weapon), Merisse curved dagger, garrote, and Coufee, all without one, but the Combat knife does.
Off of page 8, the only one that DOES list a cap, is the "alliance infiltrator multi-weapon', which all 3 damage values have a 6d cap. The other 4 weapons do not.
Then on page 9, the Petranki Scimitar (Genossian weapon) has one, The Shyarn (from the ultimate alien anthology) doesn't. BUT the Two Yuuzan vong weapons, the Tsaisis and ampistaff DO..
From page 10, the Finger spears, Slice wire, Molecular stilleto and Sith swords, all don't. BUT the regular sword and 'long/broad' swords, DO.
Page 11, the wookie Ryyk blades do, so does the Zhaboka double bladed pike, an the selonian glaives.. But the Generic axe, or Coyn-skar don't..
Going through page 12 and 13, the only ones i see WITH a cap, are the Thogk (Gamorean club), Arg'garok (Garmorean axe), Scitrok (Galaxy guide 8), and Shashan Fira sword (though this lists no source)..
All the others on those pages don't list a cap..
That's it for the NON POWERED weapons...
For Vibro-weapons, the ones i see on page 14-16, that do NOT have a cap, are the vibro-shiv, vibro-knuckler, Vibro-saw, and the royal guard custom Double bladed vibro-stave...
All the others do.
Then into the "Other powered weapons", we have the Power sword (from the Dark empire sourcebook), Force pike, great force pike, and confessors whip, all which do NOT have a cap, but the Genosian electro-staff, and admuari blast sword do..
That's just a 5 min run through of the first dozen or so pages in that PDF. BUT it has LOTS OF WEAPONS from lots of sources.... BUT as you can see, it's hit or miss, on whether they do or do NOT have a cap...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:25 am Post subject: |
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Source for the Shock-Boxing Gloves is the Barabel Shock-Boxer template, from Heroes & Rogues, IIRC.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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So... no consistency whatsoever. My players always chose their Melee weapons based on whether or not they have damage caps. I don't like the damage caps but would modify the damage based on the target. Most armor protects better against physical attacks, but I could see giving certain targets bonus dice to resist physical damage.
That Esmoomian with a coyn'skar could technically slice a stock YT-1300 in two with a good damage roll, but as a GM' SHOULD I allow it??? I don't think so.
On the other hand, when certain strong races use their own customized weapons with damage caps, they are broken. The Gamorrean axe comes to mind. A Gomorrean would do just as much damage with a knife as with the axe AND the knife is easier to use. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Templates are cramming a lot of info in and often do not have full weapon stats. Not that strange but of course a new weapon should have full stats somewhere.
garhkal, thanks for the run-through. We can dismiss any fan conversions from consideration of the OP's question because those aren't officially published WEG stats. It seems there are some other WEG stats that don't include it (if they weren't transcription errors in the fan compilation). I still don't feel it is that strange.
Hellbent, I would not assume that official WEG melee weapons not having a damage cap in the stats necessarily means that it was the intention that there is no damage cap. It could have been oversights. Even more importantly, WEG intention shouldn't override the GM. If you feel a weapon should have a damage cap that doesn't, you are empowered as a GM to add it.
And as been mentioned, you also have the option house ruling the system to something else besides damage caps.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | So... no consistency whatsoever. My players always chose their Melee weapons based on whether or not they have damage caps. I don't like the damage caps but would modify the damage based on the target. Most armor protects better against physical attacks, but I could see giving certain targets bonus dice to resist physical damage.
That Esmoomian with a coyn'skar could technically slice a stock YT-1300 in two with a good damage roll, but as a GM' SHOULD I allow it??? I don't think so.
On the other hand, when certain strong races use their own customized weapons with damage caps, they are broken. The Gamorrean axe comes to mind. A Gomorrean would do just as much damage with a knife as with the axe AND the knife is easier to use. |
I've often thought on damage caps, espceially on vibro weapons, that someone COULD push past it, BUT at a risk of breaking his weapon.
One of the better DMs i played under back in London, even had all melee weapons capped out at a flat level, regardless of Str of the wielder, at a Max of 7d+2 (AND that was even WITH modifying weapons, or being on a FP).. As HE thought it was STUPID as hell, that someone strong with a melee weapon, could be doing MORE damage than a Thermal Detonator or Heavy E-web repeater...
As to the 'technically an esmooiam with XYZ could slice up a walker/YT, YES by the RAW they could, however like you, i don't think it should be allowed... It would be like trying to use a butter knife, in the hands of a world class weight lifter, to carve up a freshly killed horse.. Ain't gonna happen.
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Hellbent
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies, everyone! Sorry for not providing a specific example; I’ll own that mistake.
My immediate thought was that the 2nd Edition Sourcebook added the Force Pike, which I dig the concept of, that was a STR+2D weapon with no stated cap.
I was asking mostly because I really like the House Rule I dug up in my lurking on this site which says that you should roll the entire allotment of dice regardless of the cap, then take the highest dice up to the cap to determine damage. This rule seems like it would be an easier sell to my group if all weapons had a cap, though.
In the absence of an official list, I’ve been rolling this idea around in my head; Non-Powered weapons cap at 5D for 1 handed and 6D for 2 handed, while Powered weapons cap at 1D higher (for 6D and 7D, respectively) unless otherwise stated in the weapon description. So for all the cap-less weapons, essentially. I’m not sold on it yet, but I thought it seemed a decent fit. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Having those categorical damage caps is better than no caps, for sure.
| garhkal wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | So... no consistency whatsoever. My players always chose their Melee weapons based on whether or not they have damage caps. I don't like the damage caps but would modify the damage based on the target. Most armor protects better against physical attacks, but I could see giving certain targets bonus dice to resist physical damage.
That Esmoomian with a coyn'skar could technically slice a stock YT-1300 in two with a good damage roll, but as a GM' SHOULD I allow it??? I don't think so.
On the other hand, when certain strong races use their own customized weapons with damage caps, they are broken. The Gamorrean axe comes to mind. A Gomorrean would do just as much damage with a knife as with the axe AND the knife is easier to use. |
I've often thought on damage caps, espceially on vibro weapons, that someone COULD push past it, BUT at a risk of breaking his weapon.
One of the better DMs i played under back in London, even had all melee weapons capped out at a flat level, regardless of Str of the wielder, at a Max of 7d+2 (AND that was even WITH modifying weapons, or being on a FP).. As HE thought it was STUPID as hell, that someone strong with a melee weapon, could be doing MORE damage than a Thermal Detonator or Heavy E-web repeater...
As to the 'technically an esmooiam with XYZ could slice up a walker/YT, YES by the RAW they could, however like you, i don't think it should be allowed... It would be like trying to use a butter knife, in the hands of a world class weight lifter, to carve up a freshly killed horse.. Ain't gonna happen. |
Slicing up a starship with a melee weapon, or even a melee weapon doing more damage than a thermal detonator are pretty silly.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Honestly, if one were to implement the Strength Damage rule from D6 Space, there's a case to be made for removing Damage Caps entirely and just going with the listed damage. |
I've adopted a tweaked version of that ("half-lifting" damage), and I'm ok with damage caps because they would rarely ever come into play anyway. But caps are certainly less important in this system.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| Hellbent wrote: | | Thanks for all the replies, everyone! Sorry for not providing a specific example; I’ll own that mistake. |
Glad to help...
| Hellbent wrote: |
My immediate thought was that the 2nd Edition Sourcebook added the Force Pike, which I dig the concept of, that was a STR+2D weapon with no stated cap. |
I can't remember where i saw it, but i thought Force pikes DID have a cap (6d+2)...
| Hellbent wrote: |
I was asking mostly because I really like the House Rule I dug up in my lurking on this site which says that you should roll the entire allotment of dice regardless of the cap, then take the highest dice up to the cap to determine damage. This rule seems like it would be an easier sell to my group if all weapons had a cap, though. |
So a 7d capped weapon maxes out at 41 points of damage, but if you say had 5d+2 str using a weapon that did 3d+2, you'd roll 8d+4 still, but max out at that 41 points??
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Hellbent
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I can't remember where i saw it, but i thought Force pikes DID have a cap (6d+2)... |
I think there have been some specific models that may have had a cap, but the standard one in the Sourcebook has nothing that I can see. I could be wrong, though. I also usually give that book to players to pick gear and stuff, but I think I may need to come up with a house list.
| garkhal wrote: | | So a 7d capped weapon maxes out at 41 points of damage, but if you say had 5d+2 str using a weapon that did 3d+2, you'd roll 8d+4 still, but max out at that 41 points?? |
Yup. All it’s doing is skewing the results to favour stronger characters by letting them take the highest dice they roll up to the cap. I kind of dig the idea that it doesn’t cap the number of dice rolled, but the total result instead. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I like it... Do you allow the option to go 'above that damage cap value', BUT ANY excess over it, is applied TO THE WEAPON as damage to IT?
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