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jamz
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jamz
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 Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:23 am Post subject: |
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For a little background to this problem:
Recently CRMcNeill thankfully posted Daniel Strains Galaxy Map in this thread https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8494. I am right now compiling rules and background material for playing trampfreighter spacers, and this map is one of the assets I use. Now I wanted to see how it works to play around with Strains map, to transfer WEG maps to it and see how everything fits.
Especially the hyperroute speed ratings are one point I feel I will have to adjust somehow (towards slower journeys, but not too slow that you couldn't sit in your X-Wing seat while travelling through the galaxy – or maybe I need much more little Space Station Motels?).
From my recent posts you can see I want to define the "galactic spacing community" a little bit more, not just the political galactic public, but the exotic travellers civilizations. The ones who give flavor and color to the setting, too.
The map of the Kira Run was my first attempt to merge the abovementioned sources and also to get a feeling for the Iskalloni in the galaxy. So I made a custom template for creating scenario maps and based on the essential atlas and Strains map, I made a map, too. Compared to the WEG map it preserves the proportions and distances of the systems:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u5bd9lvlf1onsog/Kira%20Run.jpg?dl=0
I added Malastare and Naboo, just because they are so important planets.
As this all is based on Strains Galaxy Map for RPG usage, the hexagon in which Seltos is located is Wild Space – it has been mapped once, but astrogation data is insufficient for safe and fast travel. Strain seems to have placed those in empty spaces on the map between the major and popular hyperlanes. I wanted to give each of these regions a name and in this case I called it the Mulgard Space Anomalies.
One thing I am not sure yet is whether I will keep the speed rates that Strain assumes in his map. In the Kira Run map this would affect the travel time of the Hydian Way passages. Right now Strain postulates a speed of 6 minutes to cross a hex's distance of the Hydian Way – in the end they are rounded up to one hour.
The main problem still is: Using the Kira Run from Lazerian to Ropagi takes 2 hours. Making the detour via the Hydian Way, from Lazerian to Arrgaw, Pax and then to Ropagi takes 3 days and 11 hours, which is in the scale of travelling between two neighbouring systems in the Kira Run map. This considerably scales down the urgency to connect the Enarc Run to the Harrin Corridor. The background of the Kira Run must be altered too:
| Quote: | | Attempts have been made in the past to bridge the expanse between the overlapping lengths of the Harrin Corridor and the Enarc Run, but all failed to find a safe and reliable passage linking the two. The paucity of star systems between the two routes coupled with the high degree of deep soace hazards led to the failure of previous expeditions. That is, until an enterprising team of free-traders uncovered the references to Kira Prime. The discovery of a system––even if it were a dead system––in the are between the two routes was the breakthrough that was needed. Realizing that they could use a system with an established location as a stopover point and nivigational reference, the Haik expedition set out from Ropagi to plot a new hyperspace route. The attempt succeeded. Taking a bearing from Kira, the adventurers were able to plot a safe course to Ropagi in the Enarc Run. As more passages were made, the way became easier. As the hyperspace path was further explored and refined, reliable travel became possible. … Soon, what began as a minor shuttling operation turned into an indispensable link in galactic trade––the Kira Run. |
and
| Quote: | | While the route through Kira is now well-established and relatively smooth to run, there is still an occasional hyperspace hazard. The massive asteroid field of Kira Prime is not stable … At the very least, [a] ship's mass sensors may trigger the hyperdrive cut-out, forcing the ship into realspace and damaging the engines. Because of these dangers, the astrogation standard journey difficulty is Moderate. |
Then we have another problem: The hyperroute to Iskallon and the Iskalloni – Star Wars' counterpart to Star Treks Borg – is off. The Iskalloni home planet of Iskadrell is located in "unknown regions" – not necessarily THE "Unknown Regions" of the western galactic plane. But this suggests a shorter distance as travel is seriously hindered in an unknown region. But it all depends on the hyperroute data. While the route to Iskadrell is a hidden route, it could be a very fast route relatively to its distance. Now the map of Twin Stars of Kira sets the travel time to 13 days. This is in the scale of the journey from Nigel to Kalinda, or Kalinda to Enarc, Krann to Merren and about half the time of Lahopa to Harrin. The first two routes we have in the map – they are not too long.
So we have a secret and very special route to Iskadrell. Now let's look into the essential atlas to see where they place Iskadrell. It is way back in the Unknown Regions – with capital letters: in the galactic south-west. The Kira Run is in south-south-east. And the distance between Iskadrell and my map is over 2.5 additional maps of the same size.
The main problem I think is still the relevancy of the Kira Run when it is placed next to a Super-Hyperroute.
One solution is to change the placement of the Kira Run entirely nearer to the west and farther away from a Super-Hyperroute. But it and its planets are ingrained into the essential map.
Another solution is to assume a specific scenario to use with the setting of Twin Stars of Kira where the Hydian Way is temporarily not usable. Maybe because of political turbulences right after the battle of endor, the fall of the Empire and the invasion of the Nagai and Tof. This could be a scenario for the Iskalloni to risk an invasion, too.
Still another way maybe is to adjust the hyperroute travel speeds. Right now with the Hydian Way next to it the Kira Run is favourable if it is used when travelling from the galactic east of Enarc Run and Harrin Corridor.
Regarding the problem with the secret route to Iskadrell, the planet could be placed lead into the Wild Space hexagon of the Mulgard Space Anomalies. It would be mapped, but with small pockets still being "unknown regions". Alternatively it could be a colony of the Iskadrells. This has some advantages: first, we can let the Iskadrells be a known, even if not well-known, civilization in the galaxy, but the colony may be unknown and a staging point for Iskadrell operations in the galaxy. I personally like this more (and I would treat Nagai, Tofs and other species as not completely unknown too). There could even be a hidden route between the colony and Iskadrell, or other colonies. Maybe, these hidden and fast routes are one asset of the Iskalloni. Currently they are described with some little advantages – being more resistant to blaster weapons – but with severe disadvantages because of the dangerous byproducts of their alien Bio- and Cyborg-Tech. The Iskalloni may even be one reason for some of the smaller Wild space regions in the map of Daniel Strain. These regions would be like bermuda triangles where ships have been going missing for thousands of years. This would be because of the Iskalloni's need to get slave for operating their dangerous technology or removing its by-products. (But then we have to find a reason why they are not using droids for this work. And why not because the Iskalloni are in fact droids? They are embedded in the kybernetic implants, which they use to possess organic beings, so that they can enjoy sensations, organic intelligence, personalties.) |
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jamz
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone know how travel times were treated generally? The were reset from days to hours earyl on, but then we have a map like here with explicitly stated days of travel time. Is this supposed to be treated like hours?
If this remains days, I can only see it work if the whole sectors of the Kira Run map are in a giant nebula or other hyperspace disturbance. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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There was never anything specific, but the impression I always got was that it would take weeks or months to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other (Admiral Piett's ESB hyperbole notwithstanding). The new canon turned all that upside down. A lot of what we see in the prequels could be argued as still fitting the longer-trip-time model, but the Disney trilogy took a flamethrower to that, and then doubled-down on it by deliberately placing locations on the map in such a way that pretty much any point in the galaxy is reachable in matter of hours.
Now, I can accept a hybrid version that resembles an interstate highway map, where extremely rapid travel is possible along certain routes, but slows drastically once you get "off the interstate", but a general system where any point in the galaxy is reachable in a matter of hours renders an armed rebel force untenable due to reduced reaction times. The Empire's sheer size allows it to focus overwhelming military power on any given point. If it can do this and have that force anywhere in the galaxy inside of a day, the Alliance can't operate off surface bases because there won't be enough time to load the transports and evacuate before there are a hundred star destroyers and a Sector Army in orbit. The only way it works is if the Empire has to scatter its forces in small groups across the galaxy, in such a way that said groups can't immediately support one another.
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jamz
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I totally agree. It could work for the films, but the feeling for the scale and geography of the galaxy diminishes, if travel is too fast. It even happens with the super fast hyperroutes. The original idea of days instead hours for the Gazetteer was not so bad. But there is the other problem: if it takes many days to travel then you cannot travel in a single seated fighter, what Luke clearly does. (But he is a Jedi too, and could hibernate for several days.) |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Right. Hibernation sleep also covers the Jedi using single-seat starfighters as regular transport in the prequels. Based on the limitations of both their consumables and navcomputers, starfighters are most likely just supposed to be tactically and operationally mobile within a sector or neighboring sectors (depending on local astrography), not on a trans-galactic level. Anything beyond that requires either a planetary base or a carrier.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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jamz
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Oh that's interesting. Is there a rule somewhere for the restricted operational range of starfighters? I think most players wouldn't play it like this. But with the original table and hyperspace travel taking days, it would have worked only this way.
On the other hand, the rebel starfighters jump with the fleet to Endor. But maybe this was from not too far away and to arrive in attack position.
Another way to make starfighters more dependent is to make it necessary for them to land in starports more frequently than light freighters. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jamz wrote: | | Oh that's interesting. Is there a rule somewhere for the restricted operational range of starfighters? I think most players wouldn't play it like this. But with the original table and hyperspace travel taking days, it would have worked only this way. |
No actual rule, but it is implied by their Consumables rating and the limits on their Navcomputers.
| Quote: | | On the other hand, the rebel starfighters jump with the fleet to Endor. But maybe this was from not too far away and to arrive in attack position. |
My current working theory is that the Rebel fleet jumped from Sullust to a rendezvous point several light years away from Endor and deployed their fighters there, then made a combat jump the rest of the way in.
| Quote: | | Another way to make starfighters more dependent is to make it necessary for them to land in starports more frequently than light freighters. |
I have a mostly complete house rule that gives ships Endurance Dice in place of Consumables. The rule is structured to treat the need to refuel more cinematically, in the sense that all of the math and dice rolling happens between games, with the results table geared more toward helping the GM plan the next game session around whether or not the ship needs to be replenished.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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jamz
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I have a mostly complete house rule that gives ships Endurance Dice in place of Consumables. The rule is structured to treat the need to refuel more cinematically, in the sense that all of the math and dice rolling happens between games, with the results table geared more toward helping the GM plan the next game session around whether or not the ship needs to be replenished. |
Did you publish them here anywhere? I would be interested in these rules. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jamz wrote: | | Did you publish them here anywhere? I would be interested in these rules. |
Most things I have are in the Index topic linked in my signature, but for the sake of brevity, here's the direct link.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | There was never anything specific, but the impression I always got was that it would take weeks or months to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other (Admiral Piett's ESB hyperbole notwithstanding). The new canon turned all that upside down. A lot of what we see in the prequels could be argued as still fitting the longer-trip-time model, but the Disney trilogy took a flamethrower to that, and then doubled-down on it by deliberately placing locations on the map in such a way that pretty much any point in the galaxy is reachable in matter of hours. |
Hours?!? More like minutes. The way Disney portrays hyperspace travel, the Tebellion would have been crushed in weeks, as the entire strength of the Empire could be brought to bear on any part of the galaxy at any moment. The Empire would not even need a large fleet with such insane mobility...
I say you should use what you want as it fits your needs. A lot of the new material contradicts the classic WEG material for no good reason other that to show us all who is boss. I often default to WEG as Canon often the new Disney stuff. Jumping from planetary atmosphere to planetary atmosphere in a series of second long hyperspace jumps... that kind if stuff is okay for Star Tours as a ride, but was just plain stupid for a movie. |
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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Kira Run – how to deal with conflicting sources? |
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| jamz wrote: | | Does anyone know how travel times were treated generally? The were reset from days to hours earyl on, but then we have a map like here with explicitly stated days of travel time. Is this supposed to be treated like hours? |
No, it isn't supposed to be teated like hours. As you said, the change in the 1e core gazetteer from days to hours happened early on. Twin Stars of Kira was published in the 2e era (in 1993) after that change. So the published map says what it intends. Don't assume from a handful of travel times that there was an exclusion of the possibility of longer travel times in the galaxy. No change ever forbade that. What are days, but more hours?
However, the galaxy wasn't mapped out back then and it was not known by the WEG employees who created this book that some day the Hydian Way was going to end up going through this part of space. Long before Disney became involved, the EU was a jumbled mess of conflicting sources. It was a herculean task to make sense of it all for the Essential Atlas. The result is amazing but it wasn't perfect.
And it is worth mentioning that even before Disney, it was officially established that no published travel times are considered canon.
| jamz wrote: | | If this remains days, I can only see it work if the whole sectors of the Kira Run map are in a giant nebula or other hyperspace disturbance. |
Then put it in a giant nebula if that helps you. You are the master of your game.
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | There was never anything specific, but the impression I always got was that it would take weeks or months to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other (Admiral Piett's ESB hyperbole notwithstanding). The new canon turned all that upside down. A lot of what we see in the prequels could be argued as still fitting the longer-trip-time model, but the Disney trilogy took a flamethrower to that, and then doubled-down on it by deliberately placing locations on the map in such a way that pretty much any point in the galaxy is reachable in matter of hours. |
Hours?!? More like minutes. The way Disney portrays hyperspace travel, the Tebellion would have been crushed in weeks, as the entire strength of the Empire could be brought to bear on any part of the galaxy at any moment. The Empire would not even need a large fleet with such insane mobility...
I say you should use what you want as it fits your needs. A lot of the new material contradicts the classic WEG material for no good reason other that to show us all who is boss. I often default to WEG as Canon often the new Disney stuff. Jumping from planetary atmosphere to planetary atmosphere in a series of second long hyperspace jumps... that kind if stuff is okay for Star Tours as a ride, but was just plain stupid for a movie. |
Admiral Piett isn't the only one with hyperbole... 
The EU placed Geonisis and Tatooine very close together, but had Toprawa on the other side of the galaxy from Tatooine which never made Tatooine on Leia's way "home" in the Core after getting the Death Star plans. Disney canon improved this situation by putting Scarif close to Tatooine, one example of the new canon being an improvement on the EU. But that was only possible because Scarif is a new system. Disney canon has adopted the policy of not moving any previously existing star systems from where they were originally placed. They didn't have to do that, but chose to maintain that aspect of the EU and all the hard work that went into the EA. This is why the First Order was put in the Unknown Regions in the first place.
I never got the impression that TRoS was inviolable canon for any GMs here. The OP asked for help reconciling WEG with the later EU putting the Hydian Way through the WEG map. Disney canon is irrelevant to the question anyway.
The suggested travel timeframes by productions you consider canon in your campaign universe are the only framework for those systems and journeys shown, and everything else is up to the GM to determine. The model of hyperspace routes of various speeds, which existed before the Essential Atlas and still exists in Disney canon, helps allow for some fast travels and others much slower to all coexist in the same universe, like when systems are off the beaten path.
After looking back into this, I have to agree that if the Hydian Way intersects those two systems, it would make the Kira Run, which was intended to connect the Enarc Run with the Harrin Trade Corridor, obsolete. So I withdraw my previously referenced incomplete reconciliation and offer a much simpler solution. Jason Fry won't like it, but simply have the Hydian Way pass through the area without intersecting those two systems. Remember, space is 3D. Those systems could be galactic up or galactic down from the Hydian Way, so the systems could be hundreds of lightyears away from the major route.
There are precedents for this sort of thing. The Rimma Trade Route passes through the Elrood Sector without intersecting with any Elrood sector systems or local routes. To go to Elrood from the north, you have to get off in the Tantra system (Tantra sector) and take the Coyn Route down into the Elrood Sector. If you stay on the Rimma through Elrood, your next stop is the Minos Cluster. The Rimma goes through the bottom right corner of our differently oriented Elrood map from WEG, and it could even "pass over" the local route there.
This 3D solution is the solution I am choosing for Kira. That way, if I ever run Twin Stars of Kira, the Kira Run will be as relevant as the WEG authors intended.
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