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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:44 am Post subject: |
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So, an interesting idea just came up on Discord. Someone asked whether it's possible to transition from D6 to D10. After a joke about heresy, I decided to give his question some thought, and it actually seems halfway workable. The main advantage I see is that it converts the Dice v. Difficulty system to Base 5 values on both sides of the contest. Bare bones:-Treat all D values as D10.
-Increase Pip range from +1-2 to +1-4.
-The 2D=7 Rule of Thumb becomes 2D=11, with the median likely result on a 2D being 5.5.
-Use Base 10 for all Difficulty Levels (i.e. Very Easy = 10, Easy = 20, Moderate = 30, and so on).
-Alternately, use a single D10 roll to randomly generate a Difficulty value for the next level, as in:Very Easy = D10
Easy = D10+10
Moderate = D10+20
Difficulty = D10+30
etc. It throws off the probability from using D6, but it does result in a more orderly, even progression. In particular, every 2D increase in Skill (using D10 vs Base 10 Difficulty Levels) gives the character ~50% chance of succeeding at the next Difficulty Level up.
So, yes, more Dice Heresy, but the idea is intriguing enough to be worth discussing.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Code: | D6 D10
1D 3.5 5.5
2D 7 11
3D 10.5 16.5
4D 14 22
5D 17.5 27.5
6D 21 33
7D 24.5 38.5
8D 28 44
9D 31.5 49.5 |
These are the average rolls of 1D-9D for D6 and "D10". There are no advantages from switching to d10s. You are still off track from the published difficulty scale based on fives.
Now switching to d9s would at least synch die roll averages to the 'fives' difficulty scale, but I wouldn't bother doing that for multiple reasons, including:
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | There are no advantages from switching to d10s. |
I was mostly looking at it from a feasibility standpoint. It would certainly alter the probability mechanics, but the system itself would be workable if one so chose.
| Quote: | | You are still off track from the published difficulty scale based on fives. |
Yes, but to a lesser degree than you get from using D6.
| Quote: | | Now switching to d9s would at least synch die roll averages to the 'fives' difficulty scale |
What would a D9 even look like?
| Quote: | | While each die having 4 'pips' would be a constant average result gradient, there would be a more drastic difference in minimum results jumping from 1D to the next than you get with D6. |
W/r/t the D10, would a pip range of +1-3 be better in this regard?
| Quote: | | Forcing the die roll averages to match the arbitrary 'fives' difficulty number is putting the cart before the horse. |
From a conceptual standpoint, though, using a base 10 system comes more naturally as it's the system most widely used by modern civilizations. As devotees of the D6 game, we can adapt to it just fine, but there's a case to be made that using a D10-based system fits more smoothly into most peoples' math experience than does D6.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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I split these newer posts from the original thread because that was a D6-serving idea that maintained the inherent D6 probabilities. This is an idea that involves a "significant use of non-d6 dice" so it belongs here in the general Star Wars Games forum.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I was mostly looking at it from a feasibility standpoint. It would certainly alter the probability mechanics, but the system itself would be workable if one so chose. |
It is only just as workable as D6 is. Both are off track from the difficulty scale, and both have a step of a 1.5 pips average roll difference when going up to the next higher D. Being equally workable is not a justification for overhauling the entire game.
They could have originally made the game workable with d10s, but this game was sold in book form, so no box and no dice. In the introduction, it literally tells you to raid your board games to get dice for this. In 1987, most households didn't have d10s in them. In the town I lived in, there were no game stores. I only had two d10s for D&D (which came in my childhood D&D box sets), and some of players had no D&D dice. So "workable" would not have been "feasible" in the late 80s, and none of us would probably be here if this game had used d10s. None of my childhood family board games survive to this day, but I still have all the d6s I stole from them. I imagine that plenty of people interested in this game today do not have any "D&D dice" at home, but sure it is easier to get them now than back then.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Quote: | | You are still off track from the published difficulty scale based on fives. |
Yes, but to a lesser degree than you get from using D6. |
Look closely. It's not really that much closer, and it is definitely not a big enough difference to make it worthwhile. It gets more and more off track as it goes.
| Code: | D6 D10
1D 3.5 5.5
2D 7 11
3D 10.5 16.5
4D 14 22
5D 17.5 27.5
6D 21 33
7D 24.5 38.5
8D 28 44
9D 31.5 49.5 |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | What would a D9 even look like? |
They look freaky, but the average roll for every die is exactly 5 if they are well balanced. So the progression of whole D averages is exactly 5, 10, 15, 20, etc. It literally never gets off track.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Quote: | | While each die having 4 'pips' would be a constant average result gradient, there would be a more drastic difference in minimum results jumping from 1D to the next than you get with D6. |
W/r/t the D10, would a pip range of +1-3 be better in this regard? |
No. It would still be a bigger disparity of minimum rolls than D6 going from xD+2 to the next highest D, and you would have a missing gradient where every step is 1 except for the xD+3 to the next higher D which would be a full 2.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Quote: | | Forcing the die roll averages to match the arbitrary 'fives' difficulty number is putting the cart before the horse. |
From a conceptual standpoint, though, using a base 10 system comes more naturally as it's the system most widely used by modern civilizations. As devotees of the D6 game, we can adapt to it just fine, but there's a case to be made that using a D10-based system fits more smoothly into most peoples' math experience than does D6. |
Using 10-sided dice couldn't possibly make the game any more Base 10 than D6 because D6 is already 100% Base 10. In English, and every language this game (and every other D6 game) has ever been translated into, the Base 10 number system was used.
Don't be swept away by "10" being the number of sides on the die. From a dice roll probability perspective:
D6 = 3.5
D9 = 5
D10 = 5.5
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mshute
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Joined: 09 Sep 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Someone asked whether it's possible to transition from D6 to D10.
...
So, yes, more Dice Heresy, but the idea is intriguing enough to be worth discussing. |
My game group actually DID switch Star Wars RPG from D6s to D10s back in the 90s -- but we switched the entire system and used White Wolf's mechanics instead of WEG's. (see our home brew rules here - http://laurelcadre.org/Star_Wars_WEG_to_WoD_Conversion.pdf)
The only problem I see with running WEG with 10s is the quick math that's required. Some folks are good with numbers and it's not a problem to quickly sum a series of dice no matter how big they are. A couple people in our group (liberal arts majors) had trouble adding up 5s and 6s. Asking them to add up 7s and 9s would have been intolerably slow. So if you have players that just plain suck at math for whatever reason, the larger dice could make the game more difficult for them.
One of the reasons my group preferred WW over WEG is that you don't have to add up all the dice you just rolled, you just count the dice that beat the target number. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| mshute wrote: | My game group actually DID switch Star Wars RPG from D6s to D10s back in the 90s -- but we switched the entire system and used White Wolf's mechanics instead of WEG's. (see our home brew rules here - http://laurelcadre.org/Star_Wars_WEG_to_WoD_Conversion.pdf)
The only problem I see with running WEG with 10s is the quick math that's required. Some folks are good with numbers and it's not a problem to quickly sum a series of dice no matter how big they are. A couple people in our group (liberal arts majors) had trouble adding up 5s and 6s. Asking them to add up 7s and 9s would have been intolerably slow. So if you have players that just plain suck at math for whatever reason, the larger dice could make the game more difficult for them.
One of the reasons my group preferred WW over WEG is that you don't have to add up all the dice you just rolled, you just count the dice that beat the target number. |
Cool, but that is not the same thing that was being proposed. That is using a different game system to play Star Wars, and that other system happens to use d10s. This suggestion was keeping the base D6 system but convert it to using d10s instead d6s. It could work mechanically, but there are no real advantages for switching to d10s.
Regarding your change, I am not familiar with that system. I am curious why you thought D6 was deficient for Star Wars, or why that system would be better. So is adding up die results in that system quicker or easier than standard D6?
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mshute
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | Cool, but that is not the same thing that was being proposed. That is using a different game system to play Star Wars, and that other system happens to use d10s. This suggestion was keeping the base D6 system but convert it to using d10s instead d6s. It could work mechanically, but there are no real advantages for switching to d10s.
Regarding your change, I am not familiar with that system. I am curious why you thought D6 was deficient for Star Wars, or why that system would be better. So is adding up die results in that system quicker or easier than standard D6? |
Yes, absolutely, totally different system. I was only remarking on the coincidence of using D10s. I should have made that more clear.
I agree that the original proposal could work, but I also don't see any advantage to it. And the one drawback I can see, as I said, was for people who struggle with simple math.
As for the White Wolf system, you roll a pool of D10s with a target difficulty set by the GM, say 7. Then you just count the number of dice that come up 7 or higher. The more dice that meet the target, the more dramatic your character's success. Much easier for your English and History majors. |
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