| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
lecher000
Ensign
Joined: 13 Oct 2021
Posts: 48
|
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:55 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Whill wrote: | | lecher000 wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | What is your overall point here? Are you taking personal offense by me saying regular explosive grenades do not seem starwarsy to me, or that I personally made grenades rare in my SWU? Our respective SWUs don't have to match. I have no problem whatsoever with you or everyone else having a plethora of grenades in your game. My statements were never meant to be taken as arguments for the way other people should do things. They were only describing my SWU and my reasoning behind my choices. |
I'm just trying to figure out the exact reasoning behind why you specifically call out grenades in particular as not being "Star warsy", since it's the first time I've heard this argument... |
You quote me clearly saying I am not arguing a position, and your response is to state I am arguing. Again, that was not an argument from me.
I think I see what is going on here now. You and I are not even having the same conversation. You are arguing against a position I do not even have, which means either (1) you are arguing for the sake of arguing which is not acceptable here, or (2) you have a gross misunderstanding of all my posts in this entire thread. As incredible as it seems, you are new here so I will try to presume the second. Let me try to break down my posts here.
* Grenades are objectively a part of the WEG Star Wars RPG, and always have been.
* As a GM, I personally don't like explosive grenades in my game. This is a statement of personal preference, not an argument against them.
* The reasons I offered for my personal feeling are: (1) My own failures as a GM at managing game balance with explosive grenades, and (2) I quote the first page: they just don't seem "Star Warsy" to me. I did not posit that grenades were objectively not starwarsy. It is a matter of my own personal likes and dislikes only.
* Exact reasoning for my personal feeling? There aren't any exact reasons and doesn't have to be. But I'm guessing I feel that way because grenades weren't in the CT, and on the first page I even speculated that maybe my failures with grenades in the game were subconsciously influencing my feeling. 10 years later I still think that is possible.
* My solution to my failures was to make grenades rare in my game. Grenades as defined by WEG never appeared in the CT, and I don't run outright military campaigns, so grenades weren't really missed.
If you feel grenades are starwarsy and/or you have a lot of grenades in your game, great! I hope grenades make your game more fun. If there is still any confusion, please reread this thread before replying. |
Yea, I got that, which is why I suggested remedies in my post to each of those bullet points.
| Quote: | | Next, look in the Explosives section of the Equipment Cost Chart in The Star Wars Sourcebook (2e) on p.100. There are nine items listed. "Grenades 1,R Cost 200 Damage 5D" is the first entry. The last entry is "Thermal Detonators 2,X Cost 2000 Damage 10D". These are clearly two different things. There is a big difference in the name, availability, cost, and damage code. Finally, I quote from TSWSb p.97: |
Well, not really. It says "fragmentation grenades". Frag grenades are a type of grenade, much like Thermal Detonators, which is why they both use the "Grenade" skill and mines use the "demolition" skill.
| Quote: | | I am well versed in Star Wars D6 fandom. I do not at all feel this is a common misunderstanding among fans of this game. It is extremely explicit that these are two different things, so it seems to me just the opposite is true: It is a common understanding that thermal detonators are not grenades. |
It's really not explicit, especially since:
*The description of Thermal Detonators in the 2e Sourcebook is 2 sentences long and doesn't describe their practical application.
*It specifically states that "Grenades can be equipped with any number of triggers, from simple contact, to a timer, which can be set for a few seconds to several minutes".
*Thermal Detonators use the Grenade skill.
*Thermal Detonators are mentioned in the same sentence as grenades, and then later on mentioned in the same sentence as mines.
*In the paragraph which mentions Thermal Detonators and Grenades, it specifically states "they" are thrown.
Clearly it's a versatile weapon that could be used in numerous ways, akin to the historical Hawkins grenade, which could be used as a thrown explosive, or placed as a mine so that it exploded when a vehicle drove over it. The term "Grenade" itself literally means "small bomb thrown by hand or launched mechanically", which by definition, would make Thermal Detonators a kind of "grenade" if the rules suggest that players can throw it.
| Quote: | | lecher000 wrote: | | I originally thought... |
I believe you. By stating "originally" and using the past tense, I hope you no longer have this misunderstanding. But if you wish to make grenades and thermal detonators be the same thing in your game, then go for it. |
Me speaking in past tense has nothing to do with a misunderstanding since it wasn't in reference to our specific conversation. The context was in reference to me discovering this thread.
Last edited by lecher000 on Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:04 am Post subject: The Grenade Thread |
|
|
Thermal detonators only use the grenade skill when they are thrown. That doesn't change the fact that they are not usually thrown. Thermal detonators use the demolitions skill when they are used as demolitions, which is the "usual" use for them.
Again, I never had a problem with thermal detonators. This thread is focused explosive grenades as defined by WEG. lecher000, if you want to continue this tangent, please create a new thread for it. Thank you.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lecher000
Ensign
Joined: 13 Oct 2021
Posts: 48
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: The Grenade Thread |
|
|
| Whill wrote: | Thermal detonators only use the grenade skill when they are thrown. That doesn't change the fact that they are not usually thrown. Thermal detonators use the demolitions skill when they are used as demolitions, which is the "usual" use for them.
Again, I never had a problem with thermal detonators. This thread is focused explosive grenades as defined by WEG. lecher000, if you want to continue this tangent, please create a new thread for it. Thank you. |
I will finish by adding that if Demolitions were their primary use WEG would've made that their primary skill (And under the Grenade skill it says you can specialize in a kind or model of grenade, namely Thermal Detonators). Never the less, if talking about this is a problem then I can just go back to my original postings on dealing with grenades as a GM, as this tangent was more of general curiosity on my part than a genuine debate about their authenticity:
*Applying Dark Side points to characters who use them indiscriminately in public or non-Imperial spaces.
*Don't let players loot grenades simply by not having soldiers carrying them in the first place.
*You could also have Imperial Grenades have a sort of ID chip activation, where grenades looted from Imperials need to have an Imperial ID in order for them to be activated for usage.
*Have Imperial checkpoints that search the players and make grenades an extremely contraband item that could end up with them getting fined or arrested.
*If a grenade goes off and they are within the first and second blast radius, even if they soak the damage, have them roll for Difficult Dexterity to maintain balance and if they fail, they're knocked prone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 441
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Applying Dark Side points to characters who use them indiscriminately in public or non-Imperial spaces |
I would not even mess with dark side points.
Instead, have them branded terrorists by the locals.
Then have the images shared in every starport bar, brothel, spice den and loading bay.
Then if they are rebels, they get cut off as extremists (i.e. Saw Gerrera)
The grenade that bounced and you did not bother to see who was there? It killed the daughter of the local bounty hunter guild or a crime boss.
Fighting and hiding from imperials is easy - but as soon as the people who would normally hide you from the empire want your head - that is a whole different game.
_________________
SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lecher000
Ensign
Joined: 13 Oct 2021
Posts: 48
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| pakman wrote: | | Quote: | | Applying Dark Side points to characters who use them indiscriminately in public or non-Imperial spaces |
I would not even mess with dark side points.
Instead, have them branded terrorists by the locals.
Then have the images shared in every starport bar, brothel, spice den and loading bay.
Then if they are rebels, they get cut off as extremists (i.e. Saw Gerrera)
The grenade that bounced and you did not bother to see who was there? It killed the daughter of the local bounty hunter guild or a crime boss.
Fighting and hiding from imperials is easy - but as soon as the people who would normally hide you from the empire want your head - that is a whole different game. |
Well you could do that as well, or both even. Depends on how much you want to detract from grenade usage. It would be hard for civilians to know who threw what grenade and where though so there should be some sort of low amount of chance for them to even know that it was you in the first place. Possibly, after an encounter has finished and if there were unintended casualties from grenades there's a 10-20% chance of them knowing it was you, or maybe even blaming it on you even if it wasn't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:42 am Post subject: Thermal Detonators |
|
|
Thermal detonators were clarified by WEG Rules of Engagement: The Rebel SpecForce Handbook (1997), p.69-70:
| Quote: | Thermal Detonators
Model: Tarascil Explosives Thermal Detonator
Type: Baradium explosive device
Scale: Character
Skill: Demolitions or grenade
Cost: 2,000
Availability: 2, X
Range: 3-4/7/12
Blast Radius: 0-2/8/12/20
Damage: 10D/8D/5D/2D
Game Notes: Mishaps–such as rolling a "1" on the Wild Die–indicate premature explosion
Used as a military-engineering explosive, baradium charges, commonly known as thermal detonators, are highly effective but highly unstable. They are rarely used for direct attack–too dangerous for the user. Instead, the charges are primarily used for blasting demolitions work. Only the extremely desperate use thermal detonators as weapons. |
There it is, straight off the page. We are all free to alter this for our our own SWUs and our own games, but this is WEG canon and this is RAW. Grenades are primarily thrown or launched, and thermal detonators were not intended to be grenades.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Last edited by Whill on Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 440
Location: Arizona, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 5:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
All this talk about thermal detonators inspired me to have one turn up during an Imperial boarding operation of a large freighter crewed by fanatic freedom fighters attempting to send relieve to the forces fighting on Mimban around 10 BBY. As the overwhelming number of Navy troopers flooded into the flight deck, one of the freighter crew pulled out a thermal detonator (being extremely desperate) and... rolled a "1" on the wild die!!!
When the smoke cleared, the rest of the crew and the navy troopers were no longer in a stage to be identified and the players only survived by being lucky enough to have been outside of the Command deck behind cover from the bulkhead. Even with that protection, they were all Incapacitated at least.
After rolling the damage, I told the players the session was over... no character points, no follow-up, nothing. It was so shocking to the players they didn't know what to say or think and they don't even know if they survived. I think it is my best session ending of all time.
Thanks for the inspiration grenades thread! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2022 5:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Nice cliffhanger!
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10435
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 441
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:46 am Post subject: Re: Grenades |
|
|
Thanks whill.
I am really trying to decide how to do "area explosives" in my game - as I find raw to be inadequate in my opinion - THUS your list is helpful in trying to decide what to do.
Note: I had typed a lot more - but will review the thread a bit more.
_________________
SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
