The Rule (Lie) of Two

[CRMcNeill]

So, this came up in a discussion elsewhere...

If you read Drew Karpyshyn's Darth Bane Trilogy, you likely recall that it ends with Darth Zannah killing Darth Bane and taking his place, but almost immediately, her eyes take on the same color as his, and she begins to exhibit a nervous tic that he developed in the final book. While it's never really spelled out, the author is clearly making the reader wonder if, in the end, Darth Bane actually beat Zannah and took over her body, ala Palpatine's use of Transfer Life in the Dark Empire Trilogy.

It opens up an interesting alternate universe take on the Rule of Two, specifically, that it's all a monstrous lie, which Darth Bane uses to groom his next host body, the host-to-be believing all along that they will replace their Master when the time comes. Which is true, from a certain point of view.

Carry this through to its logical conclusion in RotJ, it puts an even more sinister spin on the character of Palpatine. He didn't kill Plaeguis in his sleep; Plagueis (Bane) overpowered him and stole his body. Anakin was to be the next host in line, but Obi-wan rendered him useless as a host, so Palpatine started making alternate plans, and had his sights set on Luke before Anakin finally put an end to the whole line (incidentally, bringing balance to the Force by finally killing Bane, who was the reason for the imbalance all along).

Anyway, that's just me rambling, but I'm certain that some of you reading this are alternate-SWU aficionados, so, enjoy...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Whill]

I don't imagine that apprentice Sith Lords would be willing to allow their bodies to be possessed by their master that they had hoped to usurp to take control of the Sith Order. If there was any chance of resistance, odds are that over the course of the millennium of the Sith in hiding, someone would have resisted and the involuntary possession of Bane's spirit would have been defeated before Palpatine. If Bane is too powerful and there is no way to resist, then he could have possessed the spirit of Luke against his will. Unless the premise of this alternate reality is that Luke was possessed by the spirit of Bane at the end of RotJ, then this doesn't seem to work.
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[CRMcNeill]

Well, like I said, it's an alternate universe concept, but if I had to come up with something on the fly, I'd say it requires preparation in the form of a Sith corruption of Life Bond that weakens the Apprentice's mental defenses without their being aware of it. However, the bond takes time to form, years even, which the Master disguises as training. Palpatine never had a chance to even start forming the bond before he was killed.

From there, everything in the Dark Empire trilogy (if one's canon includes them), where Palpatine was transferring himself into clones or attempting to possess baby Anakin Solo, were stop-gap measures because he didn't have the time and/or energy to be able to do it the "normal" way.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[MrNexx]

My POV, based on the movies and the Filoni-verse, is simply

Yoda was wrong. No Rule of Two exists, or the Sith are so chaotic that it doesn't matter.

At one point in the Clone Wars, you have Darth Sidious, and his apprentice, Darth Tyrranus. However, you also have Darth Maul, the former apprentice of Sidious, training his own apprentice, Savage Oppress (damn it), and folks to the side, like Assaj Ventress, who moves in and out of the Sith orbit. THEN, in Rebels, you have the Inquisitors, who are Force-sensitive and lightsaber-wielding pseudo-apprentices to Sidious and/or Vader.

So, Bane might have gone for a Rule of Two, and he may have tried to enforce it, but the Sith have too many splinter factions, lines, and useful dupes to have it actually mean anything in the absence of Darth Bane.
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[CRMcNeill]

Pretty sure we've covered this tangent before, but anyways...

There's nothing saying a Sith can't have adepts below the rank of Apprentice. If nothing else, the Master will need "spares" in the event the Apprentice gets killed trying to supplant the Master. It will also be useful for the Apprentice to have a pool of Force Sensitives from which to select his own apprentice once he/she becomes the master. But only two of them at a time will be Sith. The adepts in the Sith orbit will be taught enough to make them useful, but not enough to threaten either the master or the apprentice.

Of your examples, Maul was outside of the Sith at the time of the CW series, and Sidious ultimately tried to kill both Maul and Oppress because he considered them rivals. And Ventress was ultimately discarded/backstabbed because she had become too powerful.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[garhkal]

To me, if it was possible i could easily see Bane having TRIED to use it to prolong his life... emphasis on tried.
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[CRMcNeill]

To be absolutely clear, I am not saying that this is what actually happened. I am saying that it would only take a minor tweaking of the EU to make it happen, if one were so inclined to take it and run with it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[garhkal]

The idea has merit...
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[Mamatried]

I always thought of the rule of two as to be only for the ones with the title Lord of the sith.

Darth Vader is also titled as the dark lord of the sith, as is the emperor, and I think these are the ones the rule of two concerns.

if we read throght maul's bio, we see that he was trained as a sith warrior, he held the title and mantle of sith warrior, yes he was a darth, but not a lord of the sith.
His time alive also overlapped with darth tyranus so there we have another possible breach of the rule, unless at the time Dooku was a lord of the sith and not like Maul a sith warrior.

it seems to me that we can not think of the title of darth and the rule of two, but think in terms of the sith "ranks" like warrior, accolyte and lord, with only two dark lords at the time, one master and one apprentice.
Though with the existence of warriors and "other sith" titles other than the lord of the sith, then yeah I am sure there could be some arguments that this fits still within the Banie school of sith.

[CRMcNeill]

[Whill]

Dramatically, the Rule of Two was a plot device to serve the 'Who is the Sith Master/What is the true identity of the Phantom Menace?' mystery (for the newer fans who didn't realize Palpatine becomes the Emperor). The films only show one apprentice Sith Lord at a time, so the Rule served the films good enough.

In universe, the Rule of Two is a rule, but for Sith rules were meant to be broken. Maybe Yoda assumed incorrectly they would strictly follow the rule.

[garhkal]

I didn't realize plageus died so 'late' in the game..
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[Mamatried]

From what I know Plaguis dies sometime during the final half of TPM
However in this time the war has started, the clones of Attack of the clones, happend a lot becuse the CSI at the time was gaining the initative of the war.

I doubt Dooku was turned in a "week" and grew into a sith lord from apprentise in the sma e short time, we see the chosen one and everyone else spend a life on that.
And yes he was a jedi master before, but still....the dak side is more than deciding today I am evil....it takes time.
To mold an apprentice into a dark lord of the sith, be it for show, but enough so to convice the jedi, then it takes time, I would argue years, after why train jedi from childhood it it takes but a few "weeks" and can be done while adult...

No No No, it simply does not make any sense.

Palpatine broke the rule of two, he ws never a Banite Sith, He began with Maul, maUle was Darth, NOT becuse he thought so, but becuse his master, Sidious named hima darth, the sith master gave him the title.

Maule is alive during the time of TPM, he is introduced to the trade fedeartions as the "apprentice" by sidious, (who is the apprentcie now only in name)
etc etc.

I would argue at this is the time we also begine to have the dooku/sidious relationship, most likely with some overlapping, and the old Plaguis not yet dead.

Plaguis dies, at a time where Sidioud has taken Dooku as his apprentice, with his (dooku's) apprentices under that.
He is still grooming and manipulating Anakin, and have done so for years.

So my point is that if we look to "darth" these are give titles, after all when Anakin became darth vader he had been the apprentice fr about 28seconds.

So the titles of darth is not something we can use to determine a breach or not in the rule of two, we need to look at onely the title of sith lord,

Nowehere in the rule of two does it state anything but there can not be more than two sith (lords) a master and the apprentice" and bla bla bla...

Point is that sith assassins, warriors and toher titles not "sith lord" are not included into the rule of two, and as such yes there was at times 2-3 even 4 in the same time and same timeline, but there was only 2 lords.

[Whill]

Have you read the novel Darth Plagueis? His civilian identity was Magister Hego Damask II of the InterGalactic Banking Clan. He died on the night before Palpatine was elected Supreme Chancellor. Despite the book's title, Palpatine is actually the main character of the story. The EU also established that Dooku, since his youth as a youngling, had always had an unhealthy fascination with the Dark Side, which is why Yoda himself chose him as a padawan.

And Lucas made the point in RotS that evil people do not always think they are evil. They often feel they are acting towards some greater good, and use the ends to justify the means. Anakin was not fully devoted to the Dark Side when he first turned to it and got the Darth title. He still thought he was preventing the Jedi from taking over the Republic and saving Padme. Only later when there was no Republic (or Jedi Order) and Padme was dead did Vader fully embrace the Dark Side (well, almost fully).

Palpatine had befriended Dooku and had been grooming him to become his apprentice Sith Lord (without revealing his identity as a Sith Lord until after he became the master). Dooku confided in Palpatine that he was considering leaving the Jedi Order due to the corruption of the Republic and the Jedi. Dooku really was a "political idealist" at this time. He felt the Republic could not be fixed and that it was time to start over.

When Dooku left the Jedi Order after Qui-Gon died, Palpatine finally offered Dooku the opportunity for more power and a chance to bring his ideals to fruition, and Dooku accepted. No it wouldn't make sense for a sudden transformation to evil. Sometime over the next eight years, Dooku came to the point of fully embracing the Dark Side. We did not see it so it could have been a slow process. By AotC, Dooku was just using his former stances as an excuse and really just wanted to usurp Palpatine and take control of the galaxy. Anakin had a much faster transformation to evil than Dooku did.

[CRMcNeill]