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MrNexx
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 Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:55 pm Post subject: Perception Skill: Resist Force Influence |
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So, thinking about Sense preqs got me thinking about Atton Rand, and how he was trained to resist Jedi techniques in various ways... combat skills, for one, but also resisting mind reading and the like. Since many Force Powers rely on Perception rolls to resist them, and it was something Atton could be trained to do, it makes sense that there would be a Perception skill specifically to train for that.
Resist Force
Time Taken: Instant
Specialization: Particular Force Powers; receptive telepathy, projective telepathy, Injure/Kill
Through time and training, the character has learned to resist the influence of the Force on themselves. This is not as developed as a Jedi's Control attribute, but may be used whenever a force power calls for a Control or Perception roll to resist. Some techniques might involve counting in one's head to shield deeper thoughts, playing imaginary games of pazaak or sabaac, or even repeated exposure to dangerous Force powers as a means of learning techniques to avoid them.
Design Note: Personally, I think Willpower should be used instead of Perception, which would make this skill unnecessary, or perhaps just a specialization of Willpower. But, since the rules are written for Perception, Perception it is. And, obviously, this is more for Old Republic and High Republic settings, where evil force-users (or people resisting force use, at least) will be more common.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like the force of will force power.
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Perception Skill: Resist Force Influence |
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| MrNexx wrote: | So, thinking about Sense preqs got me thinking about Atton Rand, and how he was trained to resist Jedi techniques in various ways... combat skills, for one, but also resisting mind reading and the like. Since many Force Powers rely on Perception rolls to resist them, and it was something Atton could be trained to do, it makes sense that there would be a Perception skill specifically to train for that.
Resist Force
Time Taken: Instant
Specialization: Particular Force Powers; receptive telepathy, projective telepathy, Injure/Kill
Through time and training, the character has learned to resist the influence of the Force on themselves. This is not as developed as a Jedi's Control attribute, but may be used whenever a force power calls for a Control or Perception roll to resist. Some techniques might involve counting in one's head to shield deeper thoughts, playing imaginary games of pazaak or sabaac, or even repeated exposure to dangerous Force powers as a means of learning techniques to avoid them. |
This is great!
| MrNexx wrote: | | Design Note: Personally, I think Willpower should be used instead of Perception, which would make this skill unnecessary, or perhaps just a specialization of Willpower. But, since the rules are written for Perception, Perception it is. |
I allow the willpower skill to do resist the Force in place of Perception, so a rare specialization of the willpower skill makes a lot of sense to me, no matter what attribute a GM puts willpower under...
| Quote: | | The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded. |
It seems logical that the converse is likewise true, that the Force can have a weak influence on the strong-minded (strong-willed).
1e didn't have the willpower skill, but it established that Perception can be used to resist the Force. 2e added the willpower skill, and I personally confirmed with 2e author Bill Smith that the deciding factor for putting willpower in Knowledge over Perception was to combat 'dump stat' mentality. Then they kept the same 1e mechanic of Perception resisting the Force, despite it logically following that willpower should resist the Force. I moved willpower to Perception on the literal day I bought Blue Vader and allowed it to resist the Force, so characters without the skill defaulted to base attribute as in RAW. I think a specialization of willpower specifically resisting the Force is quite reasonable to exist, although it would be rare.
| MrNexx wrote: | | And, obviously, this is more for Old Republic and High Republic settings, where evil force-users (or people resisting force use, at least) will be more common. |
This skill would also be of interest to evil people resisting good and evil Force users, but sure it would be more common in the Republic era where there were more good and evil Force users.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'm so glad you cooked this up! I shall be allowing it in my games moving forward.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Perception Skill: Resist Force Influence |
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| Whill wrote: |
1e didn't have the willpower skill, but it established that Perception can be used to resist the Force. 2e added the willpower skill, and I personally confirmed with 2e author Bill Smith that the deciding factor for putting willpower in Knowledge over Perception was to combat 'dump stat' mentality. |
I wondered if 1e had Willpower.
| Quote: | | Then they kept the same 1e mechanic of Perception resisting the Force, despite it logically following that willpower should resist the Force. I moved willpower to Perception on the literal day I bought Blue Vader and allowed it to resist the Force, so characters without the skill defaulted to base attribute as in RAW. I think a specialization of willpower specifically resisting the Force is quite reasonable to exist, although it would be rare. |
I've post facto rationalized the difference by talking about Power v. Finesse attributes (Knowledge is the Mental equivalent of Strength, as Mechanical is the Technological; Perception is the Mental equivalent of Dexterity, as Technical is the Technological), and so prefer keeping Willpower in Knowledge, but the "shouldn't be a dump stat" reasoning is a solid design choice.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Perception Skill: Resist Force Influence |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | I've post facto rationalized the difference by talking about Power v. Finesse attributes (Knowledge is the Mental equivalent of Strength, as Mechanical is the Technological; Perception is the Mental equivalent of Dexterity, as Technical is the Technological), and so prefer keeping Willpower in Knowledge, but the "shouldn't be a dump stat" reasoning is a solid design choice. |
One solution would be to treat Knowledge as representative of determination and force of will, which justifies keeping Intimidation under Knowledge as well. I'm strongly inclined to move Command to Knowledge, too, since there's a lot more to commanding than knowing how to convince others to do things. As the number being commanded increases, the commander also has to keep track of all the various tasks being performed, make sure they're being completed in the proper order, recognizing when he needs to delegate authority to a subordinate to perform additional tasks. All of that necessitates high levels of intelligence and training, so, Knowledge.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Perception Skill: Resist Force Influence |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | I've post facto rationalized the difference by talking about Power v. Finesse attributes (Knowledge is the Mental equivalent of Strength, as Mechanical is the Technological; Perception is the Mental equivalent of Dexterity, as Technical is the Technological), and so prefer keeping Willpower in Knowledge, but the "shouldn't be a dump stat" reasoning is a solid design choice. |
One solution would be to treat Knowledge as representative of determination and force of will, which justifies keeping Intimidation under Knowledge as well. I'm strongly inclined to move Command to Knowledge, too, since there's a lot more to commanding than knowing how to convince others to do things. As the number being commanded increases, the commander also has to keep track of all the various tasks being performed, make sure they're being completed in the proper order, recognizing when he needs to delegate authority to a subordinate to perform additional tasks. All of that necessitates high levels of intelligence and training, so, Knowledge. |
That's a good idea, yeah. Command as a Knowledge skill works, or there could be an alternate version which is Knowledge, while regular Command remains Perception (q.v. the addition of an Acrobatics skill to Dexterity, while Jumping and Climbing are Strength-based)
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | That's a good idea, yeah. Command as a Knowledge skill works, or there could be an alternate version which is Knowledge, while regular Command remains Perception (q.v. the addition of an Acrobatics skill to Dexterity, while Jumping and Climbing are Strength-based) |
I see the one-on-one aspects of Command being a facet of Persuasion. A good commander should have both, but that hasn't stopped many an abrasive @$$hole from leading a force to victory in battle.
EDIT: IMO, Acrobatics works better as an Advanced Skill with Jumping and Climbing as prerequisites. Going that route incorporates the training necessary to go beyond "normal" Climbing and Jumping. As per (A) Medicine, a character with just the prerequisites can attempt some of the tasks an Acrobat can do, but at much greater Difficulty.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Perception Skill: Resist Force Influence |
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| MrNexx wrote: |
That's a good idea, yeah. Command as a Knowledge skill works, or there could be an alternate version which is Knowledge, while regular Command remains Perception (q.v. the addition of an Acrobatics skill to Dexterity, while Jumping and Climbing are Strength-based) |
As someone who's served, i can easily see there being Two versions to commanding.. The Knowledge based aspect, which is more in knowing WHAT to do, how it works etc.
And the Perception base, on actually convincing folks to work together..
Sort of a "book learning, vs charismatic person"...
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Perception Skill: Resist Force Influence |
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| garhkal wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: |
That's a good idea, yeah. Command as a Knowledge skill works, or there could be an alternate version which is Knowledge, while regular Command remains Perception (q.v. the addition of an Acrobatics skill to Dexterity, while Jumping and Climbing are Strength-based) |
As someone who's served, i can easily see there being Two versions to commanding.. The Knowledge based aspect, which is more in knowing WHAT to do, how it works etc.
And the Perception base, on actually convincing folks to work together..
Sort of a "book learning, vs charismatic person"... |
Hmmm... side thought. New Thread.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Perception Skill: Resist Force Influence |
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| garhkal wrote: | As someone who's served, i can easily see there being Two versions to commanding.. The Knowledge based aspect, which is more in knowing WHAT to do, how it works etc.
And the Perception base, on actually convincing folks to work together..
Sort of a "book learning, vs charismatic person"... |
My initial thought?
Step 1: Move Command to Knowledge
Step 2: Write up an Advanced Skill called Leadership, with Command and Persuasion as prerequisites.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Also worth noting that Knowledge is not just a book-learning skill; it encompasses practical knowledge, as well. The description in the rulebook explicitly states that Knowledge is a measurement of both "common sense" and academic knowledge. As in, it's not just a measurement of how many books the character has read on a given subject, it's also how those principles apply in the real world.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Perception Skill: Resist Force Influence |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | the "shouldn't be a dump stat" reasoning is a solid design choice. |
Sorry Nexx but this offends my GM sensibilities and I vehemently disagree with this revolting idea. It is up to the GM to not let any attribute be a dump stat by placing value in all the attributes in designing adventures. It is a weak, lazy rules design choice to put skills into certain attributes as a replacement for GMs doing their job. Of course I write rules mainly for me, knowing my own strengths and weaknesses as a GM, so take this with a grain of sand. I know *I* don't need rules to do my job for me.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm strongly inclined to move Command to Knowledge, too, since there's a lot more to commanding than knowing how to convince others to do things. As the number being commanded increases, the commander also has to keep track of all the various tasks being performed, make sure they're being completed in the proper order, recognizing when he needs to delegate authority to a subordinate to perform additional tasks. All of that necessitates high levels of intelligence and training |
I renamed "Command" command/leadership and think of it primarily as the charisma/influential aspect, but many skills in all attributes have aspects of other attributes in them so I'm not against it having these other aspects in them. Like I mentioned in the other thread, I have a general organizational Knowledge skill that combines two RAW skills and expands them further. Good leaders will likely have both, and good leaders don't have to only have it all in one skill...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I see the one-on-one aspects of Command being a facet of Persuasion. A good commander should have both |
A good commander can have both skills, and again, I don't see that they have to have it all in one skill. I have a largely 1e view of Perception skills, and persuasion was created for 2e to fill the gap between bargaining over money/trade valued goods and services, deception, and imperative influence. I let persuasion fill the gap.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | IMO, Acrobatics works better as an Advanced Skill with Jumping and Climbing as prerequisites. Going that route incorporates the training necessary to go beyond "normal" Climbing and Jumping. As per (A) Medicine, a character with just the prerequisites can attempt some of the tasks an Acrobat can do, but at much greater Difficulty. |
I agree.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Also worth noting that Knowledge is not just a book-learning skill; it encompasses practical knowledge, as well. The description in the rulebook explicitly stats that Knowledge is a measurement of both "common sense" and academic knowledge. As in, it's not just a measurement of how many books the character has read on a given subject, it's also how those principles apply in the real world. |
I see Knowledge as largely memory of practical, worldly experience. Scholar is the academic Knowledge skill. Even it does include an experiential aspect (the ability to research), but other than that, it is book-learning.
That doesn't mean that other Knowledge skills couldn't be thought of with a partially academic aspect to them in a character's background. And since Knowledge partially represents memory, it is possible that a higher Knowledge character could be less worldly than a lower Knowledge character by virtue of having a better memory than the more worldly character.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: Perception Skill: Resist Force Influence |
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| Whill wrote: | | ...That doesn't mean that other Knowledge skills couldn't be thought of with a partially academic aspect to them in a character's background. And since Knowledge partially represents memory, it is possible that a higher Knowledge character could be less worldly than a lower Knowledge character by virtue of having a better memory than the more worldly character. |
To varying degrees, sure. It's hard to image taking a college course on Streetwise, and while something like Survival will likely have some required reading, no book will teach you how to build a survival shelter from scratch nearly as well as actually going out into the woods and doing it yourself.
For a long time, I was an advocate of moving Intimidation to Perception, but oddly, the idea of moving Command out of Perception and into Knowledge has made it a lot easier for me to conceptualize the more practical aspects of the various Knowledge skills.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Perception Skill: Resist Force Influence |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
To varying degrees, sure. It's hard to image taking a college course on Streetwise, and while something like Survival will likely have some required reading, no book will teach you how to build a survival shelter from scratch nearly as well as actually going out into the woods and doing it yourself.
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I can see it. Heck, when I was teaching, we had yearly updates on gang identification and local slang. It's certainly not going to be a 6D, but it's going to cover some aspects of Streetwise.
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