Travel Times and the Essential Atlas

[CRMcNeill]

I've been mulling over this for a while, and a similar discussion on Facebook prompted me to post it.

It's a fair assumption that the existing WEG travel time tables (apart from the times listed on smaller sector maps) were pretty much made up. However, with the Essential Atlas being a published and official map of the SWU galaxy, it got me thinking about ways the map could be used to generate approximate trans-galactic travel times.

In broad terms, I'm thinking of having the major and minor routes stand in as route travel rates, with the major hyperspace routes having the fastest transit speeds (due to the route having the most accurate pool of current navigation data) and minor routes requiring slower and slower transit times.

What I'm picturing is assigning a base rate of travel per grid square, based on whether the map shows a major or minor route, or no route at all, say 1 hour per square on major routes, then 2 hours per square on minor routes, and so on, with different rates for calculating times on the smaller regional or sector maps. This would then be applied to the existing Astrogation rules to generate travel times.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[ThrorII]

I pretty much did this for our table. Using the official Galaxy Map grid and hyperspace lanes, interpreted through the 1e travel times (using hours instead of days, per the 1.5 rules).

DEFINITIONS
Major routes are 3 hours (these are the Big 5 hyperspace lanes)

Commonly traveled routes are 7 hours (these are lanes such as the Koda Spur, Triellus Trade route, etc).

Lightly traveled routes are 14 hours (these are for all named, inhabited systems on the map that don't have a visible hyperspace lane)

Infrequently traveled routes are 21 hours (these inhabited systems which are not indicated on the galaxy map or Essential Galaxy Guide. These are usually GM created systems with mines, science stations, small colonies, bases or other outposts)

Routes traveled more than 3 years ago are 30 hours (these are all uninhabited systems in known space, whether named or unnamed, whether they are on a travel route or not)

Never traveled routes are over 30 hours (these are in wild space or unexplored regions).

Look at the starting system and the destination system. Notate if they are on a major route, common route, etc. Use the longer of the two travel times.

MODIFICATIONS
If the two systems are within the same grid square or sector, cut the travel time in half.

If the two systems are 1 to 6 grid squares apart, there is no modification.

If the two systems are 7 to 12 grid squares apart, double the travel time.

If the two systems are over 12 squares apart, triple the travel time.

Factor in the hyperdrive modifier (x2, x1, x1/2, etc)

The numbers actually add up pretty close to the 1e travel times table.
_________________
"The internet is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural." - Sheev Zuckerberg

[ThrorII]

FOR EXAMPLE:

Example 1: Han Solo wishes to travel from Tatooine to Alderaan. Both systems are on commonly traveled routes, which means their base travel times are both 7 hours. Alderaan is not in the same sector or grid, but is only 6 grid squares from Tatooine, so there is no modifier for distance. The Millennium Falcon has a x½ hyperdrive, however, so the trip only takes 3.5 hours (half of 7 hours).

Example 2: Luke wishes to travel from Dagobah to Bespin. Despite being on the Rimma Trade Route, Dagobah is an uninhabited planet in known space (therefore considered a route traveled more than 3 years ago). Bespin is an inhabited named planet not on any listed trade routes, and so is considered a lightly traveled route. Of the two, Dagobah has the longest travel time (30 hours), so that travel time is used. Dagobah is not in the same grid or sector as Bespin, but is only 2 grid squares away from it, so the travel time is not modified by distance. Luke’s X-Wing has a x1 hyperdrive, so there is no modification to the travel time. The trip takes 30 hours.
_________________
"The internet is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural." - Sheev Zuckerberg

[CRMcNeill]

Very interesting!

This came up over in the SWD6 Group on FB, too, and here's an alternate take on the idea, overlaying a hex map, with the colors on the hex map used to determine travel speeds

Map
(Credit: Daniel Strain)
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Raven Redstar]

Very cool map! Saved!
_________________
RR
________________________________________________________________

[Whill]

This old angelfire site was shared on Fb.

https://www.angelfire.com/or2/blackcathome/starwars/hyperspacetimes.html
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage

[jamz]

I love the idea of using Daniel Strains map, and I think I've found a way how to use it.

The thing is, I see two problems with it.
Even if counting hexes, it still feels superficial. It just isn't enough to track the distance and type of routes.
And then, I was always discontent with travel times. In the movies we see speed of plot, speeds which may only be explained with elaborate constructions and exceptions.

Then the galactic hex map gives no travel times for common routes, and the travel times for Super Hyperroutes feel very fast. Travelling the distance, not the exact route, from Corellia to Tatooine would take not more than 90 minutes. This would be way too fast. How could you explain that the planet Terminus at the end of the Hydian Way and Corellian Trade Spine would be remote and with exotic aliens and ships which you wouldn't see in the core? Also If the speed for travelling across the Super Hyperroutes is too fast compared to other routes, travelling would be too boring. Everyone would just travel along the Super Hyperroutes and depart at the last moment. It would be like a simple subway system scaled to galatic proportions.

ThrorII's post inspired me to base the travel times on what we see in the IE rulebook, especially the Astrogation Gazetteer and the Astrogation Chart. The Astrogation Chart shows us travel time factors which are not too far away from each other: 3 hours for a major trade route, 7 for a common one. This could be a progression which could be used in the galactic hex map. At least it would make sense to use common routes, too. Then we must find a good starting point for travel through a hex along a super hyperroute (which I is define as identical with the term major trade route from the Chart).

Also we can use the Astrogation Chart to define different types of remoteness of systems. So a system may lie near a Super Hyperroute, this means you can travel fast into the area of the system. But the system may be remote like Hoth, Endor or Yavin, and it would add a significant amount of time to enter or leave this system, as its hyperroute connection to the hyperroute grid is too bad.

And ThrorII giving examples for routes made me wonder: what would come out if I put the Astrogation Gazetteer into an excel sheet (more exact its a numbers document for macOS) and start playing with the values?

So I did. I defined a cell for each hyperroute types and system remoteness type. I wanted to keep a relation of 1:2:4-ish (3:7:14 in the Chart) for the time values. Then I placed the Gazetteers Table. Each system got a system type and for each table entry I recorded the hours value from the IE rulebook AND the hyperroute when using Daniel Strains galactic hex map.

So the cell for Tatooine–Endor would have the content: (25×C4+9×C5+I$3+$G15)÷60. This means it would take 25 hexes along a Super Hyperroute, 9 hexes of a common hyoerroute and the time values for Tatooine and for Endor. In this case I defined Tatooine as a normal system, it has no big space port but one that is used by civilians for commercial purposes. Endor was defined as an unknown system (for everyone except the empire, which now may have astrogational data of its own). The cell would then generate a value and present it as hours.

At last I made a cell, which took the (absolute value of the) differences between the automated travel time value and the one from the rulebook of all routes. Now I could start playing with the time variables fr the hyperroutes and system types. The difference value would show me, if changing a variable would shift the general result away or towards what is given in the rulebook, or if it didn't change it very much.

So far I got the best results with the following set:
travelling along a hex using a Super-Hyperroute takes 15 minutes.
Common Hyperroute: 30 minutes.
Minor Hyperroute (blank hex): 90 minutes.
Entering or leaving a system with infrequent traffic (I define this as lightly settled and no port) takes 5 hours.
a "wild" (to keep wording analogue to wild space) system which was mapped in the past but where no current astrogational data is present: 8 hours.
An unknown system: 13 hours.

This gives me following values: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yn2ro5i35qqsda2/Screenshot%202021-11-27%20at%2012.56.16.png?dl=0
We have a difference of 127.25 hours for 28 routes. This means 4.544 hours difference average per route. But we see the differences are mostly exceptions. We have generated routes from a system that take longer and we have routes from the same system that take shorter than what the rulebook gives us. The biggest difference are on Dagobah routes, followed by routes from or to Dantooine and Endor.

here is the source file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ioxqdfdoo19xnxp/star%20wars%20travelling.numbers?dl=0

[jamz]

Okay after some additional expanding the spreadsheet and tinkering with the values, I see two set of numbers which work well. A perfect match with the table is not possible, since it was designed, before there was any kind of galactic map. There may be other set of values which match up nicely with the given values, though.

It also depends on how one interpretes the status of Bespin, Dagobah, Endor and Yavin in the Gazetteer: How much and how new is the Astrodata we have for travelling there, are they accessible, mapped or known? For whose perspective and for who is the Gazetteer made?
As the numbers vary and to minimize confusion I defined some new terms for usage instead of the entries of the Astrogation Chart:

1. few current Astrodata – restricted access/travel, no public space port, no civil trade – e.g. Bespin.

2. no current Astrodata – restricted for public or civilian access, not inhabited by civilians – Endor, Yavin.

3. no Astrodata – hyperroutes to this systems have never been found and mapped – Dagobah.

This does only refer to the hyperroute connection of the departure and destination systems. It is a route which connects to the nearest publicly known and travelled route of the galactic hyperroute net. (I call this connection part the system's hyperroute nexus for some technobabble.)

I found after calculating the travel time it works well to round the result down and to assume a minimum travel time of 4 hours (at least with these distances) (else the Alderaan–Corellia-connection doesn't work too well). There could be some technobabble, that the hyperdrive needs some time to wind up.


Option 1: Free and fast travel through the map

In this option, the three types of hyperroutes don't have too big differences in their speed ratings. This encourages free travel through the map. It also keeps to the value spreading and ratios of the Astrogation Chart (3-7-14…).

Super Hyperroute: 20 mins
Common Hyperroute: 30 mins
Minor Hyperroute (not drawn in map / blank hex): 90 minutes

few current Astrodata: +3 h
no current Astrodata: +7 h
no Astrodata: +20 h

With this formula, subtract 1 hour from the result of the travel time, then round down.

Option 2: Super-Hyperroutes are much more important, slow travel outside of (common) hyperroutes

Super-Hyperroute: 15 mins
Common Hyperroute: 45 mins
Minor Hyperroute: 90 minutes

few current Astrodata: +5 h
no current Astrodata: +7 h
no Astrodata: +20 h

Also a third option is 20, 30 and 40 mins for the lane types, and 4, 8 and 20 hours for system types. This deviates a bit more from the Gazetteer's values compared to the other two sets.

I personally prefer Option 1.

updated data sheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jympzz8fshw1tuq/star%20wars%20travelling3.numbers?dl=0

Here is an image of the tables for option 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/ej4t7nq53reuxqr/Screenshot%202021-12-08%20at%2012.00.21star%20wars%20travelling3.png?dl=0

EDIT: I don't want to repost this to often, so if I find some better routes, I will just edit this post.

[Whill]

Thanks for sharing your work.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage

[jamz]

You're welcome, Whill!

[jamz]

Sometimes I think the values in the Gazetteer are just made up, other times I think they used some way to derive them. Anyway, it is also possible to use the grid system. Just counting grids, no matter if they are going straight or diagonally––applying a factor of 1.5 for diagonal grids didn't help to get closer to the values in the table. Round down and assume minimun travel of 4 hours.

If you just want to count distance, multiply the grids with 90 minutes. Add hours depending on how remote the system is and the status of its Astrodata:
few current Astrodata: +1 h
no current Astrodata: +7 h
no Astrodata: +15 h

If you want to trace the routes and discern between the types of hyperspace routes, you can do this too:
Super-Hyperroute: 30 mins
Common Hyperroute: 90 mins
Minor Hyperroute: 140 minutes (or take 120 minutes for easier calculation)

few current Astrodata: +4 h
no current Astrodata: +7 h
no Astrodata: +20 h

In both cases our signature route Alderaan-Tatooine comes out with 9 hours instead of 7, but it's the closest I got without distorting the other values too much.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tazp0jcl03wa3wv/star%20wars%20travelling%20grid.numbers?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/is4fvglu3yt0r2j/star%20wars%20travelling%20grid%20with%20hyperlanes.numbers?dl=0
Here two images of the tables:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fg2w2ibhbt4bbnt/star%20wars%20travelling%20grid.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wqp3ciak942w6o5/star%20wars%20travelling%20grid%20with%20hyperlanes.png?dl=0

[CRMcNeill]

Considering how little actual data WEG had to work with when writing up the original sourcebooks, I expect they just made them up. At the time, there was nothing to conflict with, so they could say almost whatever they wanted. The contradictions came later, when there was little or no in-depth editorial or continuity control to say whether or not something would work. Ultimately, the Gazeteer and the Atlas will contradict, but it's not WEG's fault that they do, nor is it solely the fault of the Atlas, just a symptom of the larger continuity problems of the Legends EU.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[jamz]

If you base your assumptions on the Atlas, one particularly big contradiction is the travel times from Endor to Bespin and Endor to Dagobah. Bespin lies in the middle of the way between Endor and Dagobah, but the Gazetteer gives 32 hours for Endor to Bespin and 25 hours from Endor to Dagobah.

If you want to find a formula which should match the Gazetteer's values then this connections could be ignored or weighted less.

There might be explanations if there are direct hyperroutes between two points in the Galaxy which do not intersect with other hyperroutes. Thus they would not be part of a net of lanes which you could navigate like streets. I think the Daragon Trail works like this. It goes from the Core to the Outer Rim in one jump and is called the longest single jump.

[MrNexx]