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garhkal
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 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:06 am Post subject: |
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Since my 'name sake' is a were-bear character (werewolf the apocalypse), that was the closest i have seen to one.. and since from what i see we can't upload our own pics for the avatar, it will have to do.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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So, since Grenades came up in a recent topic (and one of the long-standing items on my to-do list is crossing-over the various grenade types from WH40K), I thought I'd give this a bump.
With regards to the OP, I have no problem with grenades being in the SWU, and with the plethora of Star Wars media produced in the ten years since this topic was originally posted, I'd say there's evidence to support my theory. In particular, various high-level non-Force-using villains in the Clone Wars series have a penchant for using grenades to keep Jedi busy while they keep their distance / make their escape.
Where I'm running into problems is that the RAW isn't adequate to cover all the variations on grenades and how they do what they do. Some examples:1) While explosive hand grenades behave mostly in accordance with the RAW, launched grenades are generally contact detonated, and thus can't be dodged in the same way that a thrown grenade can (contact detonated denies its target crucial seconds to recognize the threat and react).
2) Not all grenades detonate immediately, especially gas grenades. For instance, here is a video of a US military M83 Smoke Grenade going off. Even from the moment of detonation, it takes several seconds for the smoke to produce any appreciable effect. It's possible a more high-tech delivery system (such as a smoke grenade that disperses rapid-blooming submunitions that saturate an area much more quickly) exists in the SWU, but I digress...
3) Also w/r/t gas grenades, notice in the above video how quickly even a mild breeze carries the smoke away. I'd say there needs to be some sort of rule to randomly generate environmental conditions, so as to determine how long a persistent gas like smoke will remain in effect, and where/how it disperses. Fortunately, the WH40K rules for Gas Grenades include a dispersion rule that's already in D6 format, so I have that as a starting point.
4) While there are fair points to be made insofar as incorporating Grenade into a larger Thrown Weapons or Throwing skill, I submit that grenade use isn't just about how to accurately lob a grenade to the exact spot you want it to go. Grenade also covers knowledge of various types of grenades and how to use them to greatest effect. For example, in the video above, if a grenadier wanted to create a persistent cloud effect in front of the camera view angle, he would've gauged the wind and thrown the grenade off to his right 45 degrees or so, so that the smoke plume would blow across his field of vision. Another example is timed grenades, where knowledge of how long the grenade has until it explodes can be used to "cook" the grenade, holding onto it for a few seconds before throwing it, so that it goes off much sooner and gives its target much less time to react. That's where my mind is as far as rules go. I have some tentative ideas as to how to resolve it. I mostly wanted to post this as a starting point...
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | 1) While explosive hand grenades behave mostly in accordance with the RAW, launched grenades are generally contact detonated, and thus can't be dodged in the same way that a thrown grenade can (contact detonated denies its target crucial seconds to recognize the threat and react).
2) Not all grenades detonate immediately, especially gas grenades. For instance, here is a video of a US military M83 Smoke Grenade going off. Even from the moment of detonation, it takes several seconds for the smoke to produce any appreciable effect. It's possible a more high-tech delivery system (such as a smoke grenade that disperses rapid-blooming submunitions that saturate an area much more quickly) exists in the SWU, but I digress...
3) Also w/r/t gas grenades, notice in the above video how quickly even a mild breeze carries the smoke away. I'd say there needs to be some sort of rule to randomly generate environmental conditions, so as to determine how long a persistent gas like smoke will remain in effect, and where/how it disperses. Fortunately, the WH40K rules for Gas Grenades include a dispersion rule that's already in D6 format, so I have that as a starting point.
4) While there are fair points to be made insofar as incorporating Grenade into a larger Thrown Weapons or Throwing skill, I submit that grenade use isn't just about how to accurately lob a grenade to the exact spot you want it to go. Grenade also covers knowledge of various types of grenades and how to use them to greatest effect. For example, in the video above, if a grenadier wanted to create a persistent cloud effect in front of the camera view angle, he would've gauged the wind and thrown the grenade off to his right 45 degrees or so, so that the smoke plume would blow across his field of vision. Another example is timed grenades, where knowledge of how long the grenade has until it explodes can be used to "cook" the grenade, holding onto it for a few seconds before throwing it, so that it goes off much sooner and gives its target much less time to react. |
1) I'm not seeing a problem. Unless you want to make blasters un-dodgeable. When you run into is the problem of hit probability upon impact. Since the impact area is wider, the target must dodge "farther" in order to avoid damage.
My suggestion: In order to totally avoid damage, targets must full-dodge. I'd offer concession for targets who have already acted in the round: they can still "full dodge" at the expense of losing all remaining actions for the round, and they also take MAPs on their "full dodge" for actions already taken (but not declared actions being forfeit). Choosing to use regular dodge imposes a penalty on the roll based on the grenade's blast radius (say, -5 for a frag).
2) This is a reality of smoke grenades. Typically, you have to wait for enough of a plume before using the smoke to conceal movement. You have to "get tactical" when deploying smoke for a few reasons:
Once you pop smoke, everyone knows your approximate location. It'd be good to deploy more than one smoke grenade over as a wide an area as practical so that hopefully, a lot of empty space absorbs the enemy's attention and firepower.
Wind direction affects the effect of the smoke. Sometimes, wind direction alone can make smoke useless for hiding movement.
As you mentioned, wind speed affects the useful duration of the smoke. If the distance to be covered is relatively short, it may still be useful.
A tactics roll could be considered when deciding whether/how to deploy smoke.
3) This should be rolled/determined off-camera (so to speak). And, for my tastes (YMMV), should only be randomized into duration categories, rather than being specific to each unique situation. For example, 1 round, 1 minute, 5 minutes (essentially, your categories would be "short enough or long enough that you wont forget to start/stop tracking it at the appropriate time in the encounter").
4) Goes back to my suggestion on incorporating a tactics roll into the use of grenades. I guess an argument (not necessarily mine) could be that the grenade skill covers the mechanics to throwing a grenade to the desired target, while the tactics skill covers the awareness/knowledge of situational variables which affect the decision of when/whether/where to throw the grenade.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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On the dodging or not, of grenades, ive often wondered, how someone, especially in a small area (IE in a room that a grenade just got tossed in), can even DODGE it....
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:02 pm Post subject: Grenades? |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | So, since Grenades came up in a recent topic (and one of the long-standing items on my to-do list is crossing-over the various grenade types from WH40K), I thought I'd give this a bump. |
2011. Necro-Thursday indeed. Kinda overkill with three different grenade threads all being bumped, but this one is my (only) grenade thread...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | With regards to the OP... |
The original post is about thermal detonators not being intended as thrown weapons like grenades. I stand by that assertion. The second post is really the opening topic of "the grenade thread..."
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | With regards to the OP, I have no problem with grenades being in the SWU, and with the plethora of Star Wars media produced in the ten years since this topic was originally posted, I'd say there's evidence to support my theory. |
"Theory" makes it sound like my argument was that grenades don't objectively exist in the SW universe, and I never said that. I was saying they don't have to exist in my SWU.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | In particular, various high-level non-Force-using villains in the Clone Wars series have a penchant for using grenades to keep Jedi busy while they keep their distance / make their escape. |
To each their own. The Clone Wars series (either one or both) represent realities very conflicting with the ones of the films, so this doesn't have any sway over me.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | 2) Not all grenades detonate immediately, especially gas grenades. For instance, here is a video of a US military M83 Smoke Grenade going off. Even from the moment of detonation, it takes several seconds for the smoke to produce any appreciable effect. It's possible a more high-tech delivery system (such as a smoke grenade that disperses rapid-blooming submunitions that saturate an area much more quickly) exists in the SWU, but I digress...
3) Also w/r/t gas grenades, notice in the above video how quickly even a mild breeze carries the smoke away. I'd say there needs to be some sort of rule to randomly generate environmental conditions, so as to determine how long a persistent gas like smoke will remain in effect, and where/how it disperses. Fortunately, the WH40K rules for Gas Grenades include a dispersion rule that's already in D6 format, so I have that as a starting point. |
I've never had any issues with smoke grenades in my game. Sorry if I never made that clear in 2011. I think that SW smoke grenades can disperse the smoke much faster than in real life.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | 4) While there are fair points to be made insofar as incorporating Grenade into a larger Thrown Weapons or Throwing skill, I submit that grenade use isn't just about how to accurately lob a grenade to the exact spot you want it to go. Grenade also covers knowledge of various types of grenades and how to use them to greatest effect. For example, in the video above, if a grenadier wanted to create a persistent cloud effect in front of the camera view angle, he would've gauged the wind and thrown the grenade off to his right 45 degrees or so, so that the smoke plume would blow across his field of vision. Another example is timed grenades, where knowledge of how long the grenade has until it explodes can be used to "cook" the grenade, holding onto it for a few seconds before throwing it, so that it goes off much sooner and gives its target much less time to react. |
That all makes sense, but since grenades appear so rarely in my game, there is really no reason to have a separate grenade skill. I still don't have any qualms about folding it into my throwing skill. YMMV.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That's where my mind is as far as rules go. I have some tentative ideas as to how to resolve it. I mostly wanted to post this as a starting point... |
As a 10 year later update to this thread, grenades do appear in both Solo and Rogue One, which are both in my personal canon. But even 10 years ago, I never really meant that grenades do not literally exist in my SWU. I see them as very rare in the classic era, meaning that their scarcity in my game will not be viewed as a discontinuity.
So what happened after Rogue One to make them rare? In RO, Vader said that the Senate was informed that Jedha City was destroyed in a mining accident. What was mined there? The magic lightsaber/death star crystals were taken out of the Temple of the Whills. Maybe the main ingredient in grenades was mined under and around Jedha City. Boom. Grenades could have a reason to suddenly become rare, and Imperial stores of them are more rationed out so they are no longer issued to every stormtrooper. Maybe the whole planet of Jedha had the ingredient and was overmined over the millennia, so the ingredient was becoming more rare already. Maybe the Jedha City area, having its holy status, was protected from mining until the Imperial days, and the galaxy would have had years of grenades until Jedha City was destroyed. Maybe Tarkin's overconfidence that there would be no shortage of grenade explosive was a weakness that cost the galaxy grenades being plentiful. For whatever reason, grenades don't appear in the classic films, the era my game takes place.
To reiterate, my problem in the 80s and 90s was that I never got the hang of grenades tactically, so it was hard for me to balance encounters. Grenades ended up making things either too easy or too deadly for PCs. So my solution was to pretty much remove them. Despite them appearing in two ANH prequels, I still have no real motivation to add them to my game. Grenades don't feel inherently Star Wars, so their absence isn't missed. We still have explosives like detonite and thermal detonators (although TDs aren't exactly common).
EDIT: Linked the topic post that this updates for clarity.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Unless you want to make blasters un-dodgeable. When you run into is the problem of hit probability upon impact. Since the impact area is wider, the target must dodge "farther" in order to avoid damage. |
Well, yeah... I thought Blasters (most ranged weapons, really) being undodgeable was the whole point you and I have been wrestling with in other topics. The idea is that certain attacks can be specifically reacted to, but others occur to quickly for unaided human reflexes, and thus characters can't "dodge" them per se, but can move in such a way that makes them more difficult to hit.
Now, if someone throws a hand grenade at a squad of stormtroopers, unless they cooked it just right, there's going to be a second or two for the troopers to recognize the threat and attempt to dive behind cover or just hit the dirt and hope for the best. Do the same with a grenade launcher and the grenade will go off the second it hits the ground, leaving no time to react.
| Quote: | | A tactics roll could be considered when deciding whether/how to deploy smoke. |
| Quote: | | Goes back to my suggestion on incorporating a tactics roll into the use of grenades. I guess an argument (not necessarily mine) could be that the grenade skill covers the mechanics to throwing a grenade to the desired target, while the tactics skill covers the awareness/knowledge of situational variables which affect the decision of when/whether/where to throw the grenade. |
I don't want Tactics to become a catch-all for common sense or the basics of how to operate a device. Tactics should be "a smoke grenade would provide useful cover here," while Grenade should be "there's a mild crosswind from my right, so the grenade needs to land to my right-front in order to have the fullest effect."
| Quote: | Wind direction affects the effect of the smoke. Sometimes, wind direction alone can make smoke useless for hiding movement.
As you mentioned, wind speed affects the useful duration of the smoke. If the distance to be covered is relatively short, it may still be useful. |
| Quote: | | This should be rolled/determined off-camera (so to speak). And, for my tastes (YMMV), should only be randomized into duration categories, rather than being specific to each unique situation. For example, 1 round, 1 minute, 5 minutes (essentially, your categories would be "short enough or long enough that you wont forget to start/stop tracking it at the appropriate time in the encounter"). |
Nah, just a few broad categories on some pre-determined tables so the GM can roll a few dice to determine conditions when a PC says he's throwing a gas grenade of some sort.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | On the dodging or not, of grenades, ive often wondered, how someone, especially in a small area (IE in a room that a grenade just got tossed in), can even DODGE it.... |
That kinda ties into my larger point about the realistic limitations of Dodge. Sure, if there's something in the room to take cover behind, or a window to dive out of, the Dodge works. If not, then it shouldn't.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Grenades? |
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| Whill wrote: | | Kinda overkill with three different grenade threads all being bumped, but this one is my (only) grenade thread... |
I debated replying to the second necro-thread in this thread, with a link included, but ultimately decided against it.
| Quote: | | The Clone Wars series (either one or both) represent realities very conflicting with the ones of the films, so this doesn't have any sway over me. |
I'm selective about what I include from the Clone Wars cartoons (most of the dialogue can get thrown out, AFAIAC), but the tactics used by non-Jedi when fighting Jedi are pretty well thought out; keep your distance (using flight-assist systems) and bombard the Jedi with multiple attacks from various weapons (flamethrowers, blaster fire barrages, grappling lines, grenades, etc) in order to keep them off-balance, bogged down by MAPs and unable to make use of their close combat capability. Grenades are just one facet of that.
| Quote: | | I think that SW smoke grenades can disperse the smoke much faster than in real life. |
I expect that will be the route I take as well.
| Quote: | | That all makes sense, but since grenades appear so rarely in my game, there is really no reason to have a separate grenade skill. I still don't have any qualms about folding it into my throwing skill. YMMV. |
I would suggest that, while Throwing would allow a character to accurately throw a grenade at a target, the more specialized training of Grenade would allow the thrower to take advantage of the RoE Accuracy Damage rules, in that his training with grenades would allow him to time his shot more accurately and give his target less time to react when the grenade lands (or even no reaction time at all if the grenade airbursts a meter so before it hits).
| Quote: | | To reiterate, my problem in the 80s and 90s was that I never got the hang of grenades tactically, so it was hard for me to balance encounters. Grenades ended up making things either too easy or too deadly for PCs. |
This is part of why I brought all this back up. Grenades are particularly useful for dealing with groups of enemies all at once, especially without having to expose yourself. However, the rules for grenades make it pretty time consuming, since each character targeted by the grenade gets a Dodge attempt of some kind, plus having to figure out exactly where everyone was standing. Grenade launchers are actually easier to work out; all the heavy lifting was done in g's Artillery topic, so having one round target a group gets a lot simpler. Of course, I still need to iron the kinks out, but everything starts somewhere.
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Grenades? |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | That all makes sense, but since grenades appear so rarely in my game, there is really no reason to have a separate grenade skill. I still don't have any qualms about folding it into my throwing skill. YMMV. |
I would suggest that, while Throwing would allow a character to accurately throw a grenade at a target, the more specialized training of Grenade would allow the thrower to take advantage of the RoE Accuracy Damage rules, in that his training with grenades would allow him to time his shot more accurately and give his target less time to react when the grenade lands (or even no reaction time at all if the grenade airbursts a meter so before it hits). |
That's a great idea. So I'll have a throwing: grenade specialization skill to represent that specialized training, and that will be when the skill damage bonus comes into play for grenades. For the rare occurrences where grenades even appear in my game.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Grenades? |
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| Whill wrote: | | That's a great idea. So I'll have a throwing: grenade specialization skill to represent that specialized training, and that will be when the skill damage bonus comes into play for grenades. For the rare occurrences where grenades even appear in my game. |
My only reservation would be that, under the letter of the RAW, a character would be able to attempt any task with his General Skill that he could with his Specialization. Viewed from that perspective, Grenade would almost need to be made an Advanced Skill.
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Grenades? |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | That's a great idea. So I'll have a throwing: grenade specialization skill to represent that specialized training, and that will be when the skill damage bonus comes into play for grenades. For the rare occurrences where grenades even appear in my game. |
My only reservation would be that, under the letter of the RAW, a character would be able to attempt any task with his General Skill that he could with his Specialization. Viewed from that perspective, Grenade would almost need to be made an Advanced Skill. |
The task of throwing grenades can still attempted with the base throwing skill. I was replying that the specialization is where the bonus damage could come into play.
Grenades appear so rarely in my game it hardly matters. Of course, other GMs who have more grenades in their game might want to have a dedicated grenade skill.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | [Now, if someone throws a hand grenade at a squad of stormtroopers, unless they cooked it just right, there's going to be a second or two for the troopers to recognize the threat and attempt to dive behind cover or just hit the dirt and hope for the best. Do the same with a grenade launcher and the grenade will go off the second it hits the ground, leaving no time to react. |
OR they set it to go off on impact.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Nah, just a few broad categories on some pre-determined tables so the GM can roll a few dice to determine conditions when a PC says he's throwing a gas grenade of some sort. |
True, a DM should already know what the weather is in their setting..
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That kinda ties into my larger point about the realistic limitations of Dodge. Sure, if there's something in the room to take cover behind, or a window to dive out of, the Dodge works. If not, then it shouldn't. |
I remember a game way back when, where the DM had it that if you were in a controlled space, and got targeted by a grenade (such as a long hallway that was narrow), there was NO DODGING for the first two blast zones.. A -3d dodge, for the 3rd, but you had no problems dodging on the last blast zone...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I expect that will be the route I take as well. |
One of the games i ran, i had it that they would fill a five meter square in one round, 10 mtr sq in 2 rounds, 20 meters in 3 rounds, then stay at 20 meters..
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I would suggest that, while Throwing would allow a character to accurately throw a grenade at a target, the more specialized training of Grenade would allow the thrower to take advantage of the RoE Accuracy Damage rules, in that his training with grenades would allow him to time his shot more accurately and give his target less time to react when the grenade lands (or even no reaction time at all if the grenade airbursts a meter so before it hits). |
To ME, the difference is throwing is directing it AT someone. Grenades gets you not only in the 'area', but also how to time the throw.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | OR they set it to go off on impact. |
That doesn't seem to be a feature of most grenades in the SWU. The only explicitly contact-detonated grenade (with stats) is the BNO Impact Grenade (Rules of Engagement, pg. 69). It specifies that the grenade must be thrown fairly strongly to detonate, and can be fatal if accidentally dropped.
Also, if there's going to be contact grenades, there really should be some distinction in function. If timed grenades go off either at the end of the round or the beginning of the next one (2R&E, pg. 92), contact grenades would be resolved at the time of the grenadier's action of throwing the grenade. As such, there should be an obvious penalty to Dodge the grenade, but throwing the grenade itself should also be more difficult.
As an aside, this is one clear instance where my Called Shot rules would come in handy. Called shot to the arm of the grenadier causes him to drop the grenade. Kablooey!
| Quote: | | True, a DM should already know what the weather is in their setting.. |
I don't know if I'd go that far, but having the ability to quickly generate something would be helpful. Also worth noting that climate control systems inside buildings may cause their own air movement patterns on a much smaller and gentler scale, like having an air duct on one end of a hallway and a return intake at the other will cause the air to move one direction down that hall, carrying along any gases with it. Some facilities may also be equipped with emergency ventilation systems to clear smoke or hazardous fumes in an emergency...
| Quote: | | I remember a game way back when, where the DM had it that if you were in a controlled space, and got targeted by a grenade (such as a long hallway that was narrow), there was NO DODGING for the first two blast zones.. A -3d dodge, for the 3rd, but you had no problems dodging on the last blast zone... |
Seems fair. The only protection would be to go prone and make yourself a smaller scale, or increase your effective Cover like we discussed here.
| Quote: | | One of the games i ran, i had it that they would fill a five meter square in one round, 10 mtr sq in 2 rounds, 20 meters in 3 rounds, then stay at 20 meters.. |
Sounds decent, although I wonder how the smoke knows to shape itself into corners. 
| Quote: | | To ME, the difference is throwing is directing it AT someone. Grenades gets you not only in the 'area', but also how to time the throw. |
I think the RAW for throwing grenades covers your first point, as a successful Grenade skill roll lands the grenade on target, while a failure uses the Grenade Scatter diagram to determine how many meters you missed by. Applying the RoE Accuracy Damage rules gets a little tricky because it's hard to justify precisely aiming a grenade to hit vital points on a target. However, it can be used to increase the Difficulty of any attempted Dodge by the target, which reflects the grenadier "cooking" the grenade properly, so that it detonates much closer to the time of impact than it would if the character just pulled a pin and threw it.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Also, as a fun aside, G.I. Joe had an interesting take on throwing hand grenades when they introduced the Cobra Frag-Viper, who hurled hand grenades extreme distances with a modified Jai Alai Cesta. g brought up Jai Alai in the past, but it might be a fun augmentation of the Throwing and/or Grenade skills.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14213
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | OR they set it to go off on impact. |
That doesn't seem to be a feature of most grenades in the SWU. The only explicitly contact-detonated grenade (with stats) is the BNO Impact Grenade (Rules of Engagement, pg. 69). It specifies that the grenade must be thrown fairly strongly to detonate, and can be fatal if accidentally dropped.
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You keep saying tech in SW is much more ahead of us, so it stands to reason, they should have other grenades besides Just that one, that go off on impact..
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | As an aside, this is one clear instance where my Called Shot rules would come in handy. Called shot to the arm of the grenadier causes him to drop the grenade. Kablooey! |
As a character, i've done that. Held my shot (while in a sniper spot), till i saw someone pull a grenade off to toss it at our group, then SHOT the grenade/arm!
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Also, as a fun aside, G.I. Joe had an interesting take on throwing hand grenades when they introduced the Cobra Frag-Viper, who hurled hand grenades extreme distances with a modified Jai Alai Cesta. g brought up Jai Alai in the past, but it might be a fun augmentation of the Throwing and/or Grenade skills. |
I'd talked about hai-lai in the past, and how those baskets, could be used to augument throwing..
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