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TyCaine
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Location: Florida, US
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 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:16 am Post subject: Scale question for CRMcNeill |
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Hey CRMcNeill
I love what you did with the Capital scale
It never sat right with me that there was such a huge disparity between capital ships from the assault shuttles and blast boats to the Executor star destroyer, to quote the extremes.
So splitting that out into three made perfect sense, along with updating weapons so that destroyer class capital ships had weapons to deal with their own kind, Frigates and also starfighters.
I implemented this in my own game and am very happy with it.
Now though I'm looking at speeder scale, and it suffers the same problem, speeder bikes versus airspeeders, etc.
However, in seeing the addition of swoop scale, allowing speeder bikes to be classified differently than airspeeders, I hadn't seen (or maybe I missed) where the difference in scale for weapons was taken into account.
Do we now need to add swoop scale weapons as well as character scale weapons to some of the speeders?
Or was there some other thought to handle that?
Do you have a vehicle modification list (like with starship) that might speed that transition?
Please, if you can, enlighten me as I really want to separate out the speeder bikes and such, just trying to figure out how much work it would be!
Thanks in advance!
~Ty
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:26 am Post subject: Re: Scale question for CRMcNeill |
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| TyCaine wrote: | Hey CRMcNeill
I love what you did with the Capital scale
It never sat right with me that there was such a huge disparity between capital ships from the assault shuttles and blast boats to the Executor star destroyer, to quote the extremes.
So splitting that out into three made perfect sense, along with updating weapons so that destroyer class capital ships had weapons to deal with their own kind, Frigates and also starfighters.
I implemented this in my own game and am very happy with it.
Now though I'm looking at speeder scale, and it suffers the same problem, speeder bikes versus airspeeders, etc.
However, in seeing the addition of swoop scale, allowing speeder bikes to be classified differently than airspeeders, I hadn't seen (or maybe I missed) where the difference in scale for weapons was taken into account.
Do we now need to add swoop scale weapons as well as character scale weapons to some of the speeders?
Or was there some other thought to handle that?
Do you have a vehicle modification list (like with starship) that might speed that transition?
Please, if you can, enlighten me as I really want to separate out the speeder bikes and such, just trying to figure out how much work it would be!
Thanks in advance!
~Ty |
Hi Ty. Why didn't you just post this question in the Scale System thread itself?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:31 am Post subject: Re: Scale question for CRMcNeill |
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| TyCaine wrote: | Hey CRMcNeill
I love what you did with the Capital scale |
| Quote: | | I implemented this in my own game and am very happy with it. |
Thanks! It's always nice to hear positive feedback.
| Quote: | Now though I'm looking at speeder scale, and it suffers the same problem, speeder bikes versus airspeeders, etc.
However, in seeing the addition of swoop scale, allowing speeder bikes to be classified differently than airspeeders, I hadn't seen (or maybe I missed) where the difference in scale for weapons was taken into account.
Do we now need to add swoop scale weapons as well as character scale weapons to some of the speeders? |
Considering how close it is to Speeder and Character, the simple solution there would be to add or subtract 2D from Character or Speeder Scale weapons. For instance, a Character-Scale Medium Repeating Blaster from this list could be made Swoop-Scale by just reducing the Damage to 4D and giving it 2D of Fire Control. Conversely, a Light Laser Cannon from this list that inflicts 4D Damage with 4D Fire Control at Starship-Scale could be reduced to Swoop-Scale at 8D Damage and 0D Fire Control.
Frankly, the only time it's really worth it to gen up Swoop-Scale weapon stats is when I'm writing up stats for a Swoop/Speeder Bike.
| Quote: | | Do you have a vehicle modification list (like with starship) that might speed that transition? |
Afraid not. Most of my conversions and modifications are based on guesswork. The closest I have is the list of weapons I provided in the two links above. If you want to put the effort in on something like that, I'm more than happy to provide input.
| Quote: | | Please, if you can, enlighten me as I really want to separate out the speeder bikes and such, just trying to figure out how much work it would be! |
How do you picture separating them out?
| Quote: | Thanks in advance!
~Ty |
No problem!
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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TyCaine
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Joined: 16 Oct 2009
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Location: Florida, US
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Hi Ty. Why didn't you just post this question in the Scale System thread itself? |
Because it's late, and it didn't occur to me.....
My brain woke me up with the question and I posted....
If you want I can repost the question there and you can kill this thread?
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Last edited by TyCaine on Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TyCaine
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Never mind I have my answers. Thanks for responding CRM!
Lol
| Quote: | | How do you picture separating them out? |
I was figuring speeder bikes, swoops, sleds and small skiffs at first, and figuring on a case by case basis from there.
Those are the smallest speeders that really need to be in their own category as far as I'm concerned because they just don't equate to one of the repulsor trucks or airspeeders to my mind.
They're more substantial than a character, but need to be defined separately from speeders in general.
At least in my opinion.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| TyCaine wrote: | I was figuring speeder bikes, swoops, sleds and small skiffs at first, and figuring on a case by case basis from there.
Those are the smallest speeders that really need to be in their own category as far as I'm concerned because they just don't equate to one of the repulsor trucks or airspeeders to my mind. |
That was my thought, as well. When you look at the performance of modern motorcycles and similar vehicles, there's a clear difference in maneuverability and acceleration, at the cost of fragility, both of which are aspects of different Scales.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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TyCaine
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
That was my thought, as well. When you look at the performance of modern motorcycles and similar vehicles, there's a clear difference in maneuverability and acceleration, at the cost of fragility, both of which are aspects of different Scales. |
Exactly my thought, just makes sense.
So with the scale difference in weapons, would you expect some speeder scale vehicles to be carrying swoop scale weapons as well as character scale weapons?
If so, what kinds of vehicles would you think might need to have their ordnance updated?
I can see some not bothering, particularly if they're on the tougher side of things, and they might presume their character scale weapons can also just be used against swoop scale I suppose......
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| TyCaine wrote: | | So with the scale difference in weapons, would you expect some speeder scale vehicles to be carrying swoop scale weapons as well as character scale weapons? |
That's going to be on a case-by-case basis. Using the example weapons from the previous post, the larger and more powerful a weapon is, the better it is to leave it at the higher Scale to help represent the cumbersomeness of heavy weaponry. You could down-scale a Light Laser Cannon to Character-Scale at 10D Damage with -2D Fire Control, but it's simpler to leave it outside of buckets-o'-dice territory, especially since a Light Laser Cannon is going to be used primarily for light anti-vehicle / anti-armor work.
That's what I did here with Blaster Artillery weapons, moving the tripod-mounted Light Laser Cannon up to Speeder-Scale. Due to their bulk, it wouldn't be amiss to move the E-Web and the Riot Cannon up to Swoop-Scale to represent their relative bulk and clumsiness.
| Quote: | If so, what kinds of vehicles would you think might need to have their ordnance updated?
I can see some not bothering, particularly if they're on the tougher side of things, and they might presume their character scale weapons can also just be used against swoop scale I suppose...... |
Again, it's gonna be on a case-by-case basis. If you can gen up a list of vehicles you want to populate Swoop-Scale with, I can give you some more concrete answers.
EDIT: I'm off to bed r/n, so I'll get to it in the AM...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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TyCaine
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I dropped shortly before you did, my brain deciding to let me sleep now that I had part of my answer...
As for case by case, the main things to be converted to Swoop scale for me right now would definitely be the list of Speeder Bikes & Swoops you have there, all I see are already in Swoop scale for yourself, and I wholeheartedly agree.
I'd need to add the Imperial Waveskimmer that someone statted up in the Vehicle Stats Guide, and the Repulsorlift Sled (again which I notice you already have at Swoop scale, and I agree totally).
For Speeders that might want to field Swoop scale weapons (potentially as well as Character scale weapons) I honestly have yet to come up with a viable list.
Most that might have concerns with Swoops have both Speeder scale and Character scale weaponry, so would easily be able to respond with one or the other and have a reasonable chance of defending themselves. Plus, the weaponry most Swoop scale vehicles would have would be hard pressed except on lucky shots to do much as most, at least as RAW, seem pretty light weapons intended for dealing with personnel in lightly defended positions.
I think at most, I'll probably add an extra Character scale weapon here or there, high powered enough it would have bite against Swoop scale vehicles even with the -2D, and call it a day.
I don't think there's much for me to update personally, and yet the difference between Swoop and Speeder is significant enough it'll make a speeder bike rider cautious about doing anything but hit and run attacks against a speeder scale vehicle.
Again, thanks for the scale changes, things make much more sense now and there's much more difference between vehicles that had been otherwise grouped together!
~Ty
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| TyCaine wrote: | | I'd need to add the Imperial Waveskimmer that someone statted up in the Vehicle Stats Guide |
Are you referring to the Walker-Scale Waveskimmer hydrofoil in the Dark Empire Sourcebook, or something else?
Never mind; found it. Makes sense that it would be Swoop-Scale, too. I'd probably swap out the Sonic Cannon for a Light Pulse Laser, ala what we discussed here. Another candidate is the Drogue on pg. 50 of Rules of Engagement. Also, the Infantry Grav-Sled I crossed over from the Hammer's Slammers setting.
| Quote: | | For Speeders that might want to field Swoop scale weapons (potentially as well as Character scale weapons) I honestly have yet to come up with a viable list. |
I did a quick search of my vehicle stats and the only two I can find that I gave Swoop-Scale weapons were the Grenade Launchers on the ULAV and the SpecForce Combat Skiff, as well as some of the Fractalsponge vehicles I did. My reasoning being that, in general, grenade launchers don't have the accuracy of rifles and heavy repeaters. However, grenades being what they are, accuracy isn't as necessary, so long as the grenade gets close enough.
| Quote: | Most that might have concerns with Swoops have both Speeder scale and Character scale weaponry, so would easily be able to respond with one or the other and have a reasonable chance of defending themselves. Plus, the weaponry most Swoop scale vehicles would have would be hard pressed except on lucky shots to do much as most, at least as RAW, seem pretty light weapons intended for dealing with personnel in lightly defended positions.
I think at most, I'll probably add an extra Character scale weapon here or there, high powered enough it would have bite against Swoop scale vehicles even with the -2D, and call it a day.
I don't think there's much for me to update personally, and yet the difference between Swoop and Speeder is significant enough it'll make a speeder bike rider cautious about doing anything but hit and run attacks against a speeder scale vehicle. |
Works for me. Part of why I stuck with 2D gaps between Scale steps was for this exact reason, so that greater Scale wouldn't be an insurmountable obstacle to smaller weapons damaging larger targets. One possibility that does occur to me for mounting Light Laser Cannon on Swoops is to limit their Rate of Fire, which can be explained away by the swoop's lower overall power budget, which means the cannon takes longer to recharge between shots.
| Quote: | Again, thanks for the scale changes, things make much more sense now and there's much more difference between vehicles that had been otherwise grouped together!
~Ty |
Glad to be of service. The system is pretty well set as of now. The only change I'd consider making at this point is inserting a fourth Capital Ship Scale Class at +14D, but that's pretty low priority at the moment.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| TyCaine wrote: | | Quote: | | Hi Ty. Why didn't you just post this question in the Scale System thread itself? |
Because it's late, and it didn't occur to me.....
My brain woke me up with the question and I posted....
If you want I can repost the question there and you can kill this thread? |
Too late now. I thought we could maybe just make this an "Ask CRMcNeill" thread, but just about every thread on this forum already is that anyway, so no real point in that either. Best to reply in the thread you have a question about.
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Whill
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Ask CRMcNeill |
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| Whill wrote: | | I did think of a question. Can you think of any starships that you statted out with a Space faster than 12? Do you stat any air vehicles outside of the cloud car with a Move faster 450? |
The only starships I can think of with a Space faster than 12 are unmanned ships, one an Imperial Probe, the other an automated courier. Both can be found in the Weapons & Equipment / Droids post. As far as fast vehicles, nothing comes to mind. I have tentative plans to do the Talon I and the insanely fast zZip K-222, but haven't gotten around to it. At the moment, the Storm IV is the king-of-speed in atmospheric flight.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Too late now. I thought we could maybe just make this an "Ask CRMcNeill" thread, but just about every thread on this forum already is that anyway, so no real point in that either. Best to reply in the thread you have a question about. |
I suppose if Ty cut-and-pasted his original post over to the Scale thread, we could cooperate on moving our posts from here to there, then you could delete this thread once everything has migrated over...
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TyCaine
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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done
better to consolidate and have all about scale in one place
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