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MrNexx
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 Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:33 am Post subject: Skills you cannot use |
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So, an assumption I see a lot is that people cannot use skills if they don't have them listed on their template.... a kid doesn't have Starship Weaponry, so, if he's put in a position where he needs to start shooting, he can't.
However, I'm not sure where that is in the rules.
The closet I can find to a statement regarding it says the opposite... On page 28 of R&E, you get "'What happens if I don't improve a skill?' Simple — just roll the attribute. Remember, skills that are not improved still have the same die code as their attribute."
Also, under "learning new skills" (p. 35), there's this note: "There is no training time if the character "used the skill" in the last adventure (i.e., used the attribute when doing something that would be covered by the skill)." Which would further imply that you try any skill if you want.
Add in that some skills are simply natural abilities (if Brawling is not listed, are you unable to throw a punch? Can Smugglers neither climb nor jump? Do Wookiees have no Willpower?), and, barring a specific reference that says you can't use skills if they're not listed on your template, I don't see how that's true.. at least, not by the rules as written.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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I've never played this way.
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Skills you cannot use |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | ... and, barring a specific reference that says you can't use skills if they're not listed on your template, I don't see how that's true.. at least, not by the rules as written. |
I have seen this quoted before yet never seen it in the rules or a supplement. I think this is more of a home rule or a case of cross game syndrome from D&D.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Skills you cannot use |
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| MrNexx wrote: | So, an assumption I see a lot is that people cannot use skills if they don't have them listed on their template.... a kid doesn't have Starship Weaponry, so, if he's put in a position where he needs to start shooting, he can't.
However, I'm not sure where that is in the rules. |
Its not an assumption based on the rules, its more of a thought of how things should be.. And not all skills should be that way. Yes, some skills should be able to get defaulted, some to me, shouldn't... Such as what we've discussed in the # of threads on this, in the past 3 or so years.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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The rules are pretty explicit that if you don't have a skill listed, use the attribute. Anything else is house rules.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed that this is not the RAW, but likely somebody's interpretation or house rule.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: Skills you cannot use |
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| Quote: | | What happens if I don't improve a skill?' Simple — just roll the attribute. Remember, skills that are not improved still have the same die code as their attribute. |
The other things cited are correct but don't need to imply anything because, as cheshire said, this is explicit. The very premise of the D6 game system is that skills default to the attributes. 2e introduced an exception to that, advanced skills which start at 1D and can't be used without the skill.
Anyone who argues that WEG SW RAW says otherwise is simply incorrect. Of course some GMs know RAW and choose to house rule it anyway, which is their prerogative. I think D6 Space has an optional 'unskilled penalty' rule.
Most here seem to agree with RAW. As garhkal said, we've had multiple discussions about this over the years. I'm in favor of at most introducing a temporary "unfamiliarity factor" that can apply to some base attribute rolls if the character is using some new (to them) technologies, where the difficulty is slightly higher the first few times and then the penalty disappears and it becomes pure default.
A related discussion is how to handle primitive sentient characters. I think the Ewok rules with a massive list of skill restrictions but still allowing primitive characters to use base attribute are both quite ridiculous. I submit that even 1D in Knowledge, Mechanical, and Technical attributes inherently possesses a minimal acclimation to galactic society, so the game system was not really designed to handle primitive characters. My solution for primitive NPCs is to have "0D Attributes" (which includes rules for 0D, 0D+1, and 0D+2). My solutions for PCs is to disallow primitive characters — PCs may have been primitive at some point in their background and may still cling to primitive culture in some ways, but they have had some galactic acclimation since then. An Ewok PC with 2D in Knowledge and Technical would had to have been out in the greater galaxy for at least a few years before the campaign begins.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:18 am Post subject: |
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So, it's not so much that it's a common thing, just that garhkal talks so much he seems like several people? 
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | So, it's not so much that it's a common thing, just that garhkal talks so much he seems like several people? |
Yes, but in a good way.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Lol.. Thanks for the funny!
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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This came up in our game on Sunday, as the GM said that characters only got the skills on their Template.
I was kind of surprised that the rules weren't more clear on this. The RAW does imply that PCs are all built using a template, as it even has "build your own template".
Most spots in the rules seem to reference using the skills on your character sheet, which in the case of templates means only those listed.
But then - as has been referenced in this thread - it means Smugglers can't make a Running test. 
Then the REUP has an 'optional' section for "untrained skill use". Our GM decided to simply impose a -2 (total, not -2D) for skills not listed on your template.
So while I generally agree that the RAW is that skills default to the attribute, where (specifically) do you find that in the 2R&E rules?
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Skills you cannot use |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | This came up in our game on Sunday, as the GM said that characters only got the skills on their Template.
I was kind of surprised that the rules weren't more clear on this. The RAW does imply that PCs are all built using a template, as it even has "build your own template".
Most spots in the rules seem to reference using the skills on your character sheet, which in the case of templates means only those listed.
But then - as has been referenced in this thread - it means Smugglers can't make a Running test.
Then the REUP has an 'optional' section for "untrained skill use". Our GM decided to simply impose a -2 (total, not -2D) for skills not listed on your template.
So while I generally agree that the RAW is that skills default to the attribute, where (specifically) do you find that in the 2R&E rules? |
| MrNexx wrote: | | On page 28 of R&E, you get "'What happens if I don't improve a skill?' Simple — just roll the attribute. Remember, skills that are not improved still have the same die code as their attribute." |
I find that to be explicit. I think the problem comes from people just looking at the templates and making unfounded assumptions about why not all skills are listed...
Also per R&E p.28, the skills on the templates are the skills that can have skill dice allocated to in character creation. All skills, improved or not, can be used by attribute default unless they are Force skills or advanced skills the character doesn't have.
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RyanDarkstar
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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The Second Edition aka Blue Vader book, is the only edition that explicitly states only the skills listed under the attributes are known at character creation.
Skills -- How Your Character Gets Better (page 10, 2E)
| Quote: | | Not all characters have all skills listed on their templates. Beginning characters can only learn skills that are listed on their template. (my emphasis) |
Below are what I found in the other editions that seemed relevant.
Note for Players Using Scrap Paper to Record Characters (page 8, 1E):
| Quote: | | All skills start with the same code as the attribute they're printed under. So you only need to write the skills to which you allocate dice on your piece of paper. If you use a different skill, just look at the governing attribute to determine your skill code. |
Which Do You Use? (page 29, 1E)
| Quote: | | To look at it another way, skills are specialized attributes. If you have no training in shooting blasters, you use your innate dexterity when you fire one. When you start learning more about blasters, you specialize, and develop a separate skill. |
Generating Characters "From Scratch" (page 81, 1E)
| Quote: | | Once you've made up a new template, using it to generate a character is easy enough. Just customize it (allocate 7D to skills), and decide on his connections with the other characters. |
Pick Skills (page 28, 2R&E)
| Quote: | While attributes cover a character's inborn ability in certain areas, you must be wondering, "Can my character get better at anything?"
That's where skills come in. Each template has several skills listed under each attribute. The skills are explained in the next chapter, "Attributes and Skills."
A beginning character has 7D to spend on skills; you can add ID or 2D to any of the skills shown on the template. All the skills listed beneath a given attribute begin with that attribute's die code.
With the gamemaster's permission, you can add other skills to the template. (my emphasis) |
In the example, in the same section (quoted by MrNexx above):
| Quote: | "What happens if I don't improve a skill?" Simple — just roll the attribute. Remember, skills that are not improved still have the same die code as their attribute.
Example: Thannik has improved his blaster and dodge, which are Dexterity skills. He didn't improve a lot of other skills, like grenade, melee combat or melee parry. When he does anything covered by these skills (or uses any other part of Dexterity), he simply rolls his Dexterity of 4D. |
Rolling Actions (page 74, 2R&E)
| Quote: | | Characters roll their skill dice (or their attribute dice if they haven't improved the skill) whenever they do something important and there's a risk of failure. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:27 am Post subject: |
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This came up in a game I was playing a while back. My character ,who had 4D strength, fell into some water. So I said, "I swim to the shore."
GM: "You don't have swimming on your character sheet."
Me: "yeah, I only had 7D to allocate, and swimming wasn't part of the main concept for my character."
GM: Well, then you can't swim.
Me (puzzled because I believed that an un-raised skill defaulted to the attribute):I can't even TRY? Skills that haven't been improved derault to the attribute!
GM: Yeah, but ONLY if its written on your character sheet. Your character drowns.
So, it would seem that the question MAY be more nuanced than merely what a skill defaults to, but rather, is their room in the RAW for an interprtation (even an unreasonable one) wherein the skill must be written on the sheet in order to be allowed to default to the attribute?
Just for laughs, the next character I rolled up, the GM took the character sheet and when he gave it back to me, he had added 10D in swimming to the sheet.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Well, seeing the # of people IRL< even who LIVE NEAR THE OCEAN or lakes, who still can't swim, it's not surprising some folks feel not everyone should be able to swim..
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