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Whill
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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 Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | I'd love an animated series voiced by Mark Hamill though. |
That I think he would probably do. But they would need to get new voice actors for Han and Leia even if they aren't main characters.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Or to give him a major role in The Mandolorian Seasons 2+. Probably too for 2 I think filming wrapped on it right before lockdown. |
When RotJ was filmed, Hamill was 30 playing a 23 year old Luke, so he was already old then. That was 38 years ago, but The Mandalorian is only set a few years after RotJ. Would you like to see Luke with a CGed younger face and someone else's slimmer body, like in the brief dark flashback in TRoS? I don't see that happening, nor would I want it to. It wouldn't be that much Hamill. Sometimes it's better to let the past die.
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Switiching in younger actors isn't the same as in James Bond or Batman. Mark Hamil wasn't doing his personal film adaptation of a character audiences already knew. His Luke, is Luke. |
I feel the same way, that his Luke is Luke. But I'm sure that many Bond fans were outraged when George Lazenby and even Roger Moore replaced Sean Connery. The film franchise with Connery became an entity all its own and deeply overshadowed the novels it was based on. Connery was Bond. I'm sure it took a few Moore films for them to accept them, and I'm quite sure that some fans never accepted another Bond. The series continued its popularity by gaining a lot of new, younger fans along the way, fans that weren't adamant that only Connery could play the role. Batman is different because by the time Michael Keaton took the role, the 40s Batman series was forgotten by most people and Keaton was replacing purely camp 1960s Adam West. And both of these are different because each new James Bond (and Batman) actor is a reboot, for continuity purposes a distinct but similar parallel universe. And by the way, Roger Moore was three years older than Sean Connery, so Moore wasn't even a 'younger actor injection' into the franchise.
With a younger Luke, this wouldn't be just a long series of always modern set adventures with an aging actor so time to reboot younger! Disney Star Wars is one timeline for everything but the stories keep taking places at different years all over the timeline. The eleven Star Wars films are one original film with five chronologically subsequent sequels and five prequels. Alec Guinness was a little too old to play young Obi-Wan in 1997 and he died during the filming of AotC. Harrison Ford and Billy Dee Williams were too old to play Han and Lando in Solo. In the Star Wars franchise, it has been well established for over 20 years that old actors don't play extremely younger versions of their human characters. So for multiple reasons, your James Bond and Batman analogies are not that applicable to Star Wars.
Luke Skywalker died at an age that was already a good bit younger than the original actor that portrayed him. Force Ghosts shouldn't be too aged and who wants to watch the adventures of a ghost, so that's out. For years before he died, he was a very un-Luke character that lived on a hidden island, so there's nothing for story there. Any new Luke stories that anyone would actually want to see would take place a good amount in the past before the DT, and it just wouldn't work with Hamill doing live action. I'm sure even Disney would realize this. That means that you are only going to get more live-action Luke with a different actor, or animated Luke possibly with Hamill's voice.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:24 am Post subject: |
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I have seen too many topics like this one over the last few years all across the net, and I feel many of them are missing the mark on the real problems with the Disney Trilogy. I do not feel the Disney movies are bad because they tried to introduce new characters, or even younger characters - they are bad for so many other editorial, creative, and production level decisions. They could have been so much more than they were - but you get a feel for what is to come right out of the gate in The Force Awakens.
I do not feel the new group of characters was well cast, nor well thought out or well written. The whole new trilogy does feel very piecemeal and jagged, and the characters do not mesh well together at all, nor even work well on screen alone most of the time, for a wide variety of reasons. It seems clear to me that the writers did not try to develop the characters off the page to figure out their personalities, their quirks, how and more importantly why they might come together and end up working together and becoming friends - but this is what made the Classic Trilogy. These seemingly hodge-podge, mismatched misfits who shouldn't stand one another find they have a few things in common and not only work to a greater good but become close friends. In the new trilogy it felt to me as if they felt forced to work together, and it didn't help when they would refer to "The Mission" all the time.
Sure, you can use action to bring characters together, but this only works to a point... and endless exposition or repetition of critical plot needs doe snot a story or background make. Worse, in The Force Awakens when one of the original cast comes in, it seemed like the entire movie slowed down to allow old time fans to soak up the cameo...and then those scenes were so poorly written as well as if they relied on the star power of the actor to make them shine... sorry I really did not like "Hey Chewie can I see that?" pew! pew! "I always wanted to shoot that thing." At one point we have a character seemingly show up, then just start tagging along... no real effort was put into what she brought to the table but time was taken for a long, drawn out exposition of how she grew up in slavery and hates corporations... and the whole time the look on the Ex-first Order trooper's face to me seems like "I should care why?" which was how I felt honestly. I disliked Poe Dameron's character...or the actor playing him...I really don't know - it might be if he were written differently or more back detail were added I might have liked him - or if he were played by a different actor I might have liked him - I am unsure. I really couldn't stand Kylo... when he first appeared, froze the blaster bolt, I had hope - I was like "This is neet" but then the cutting apart the wall on the ship and crying over Vader's helmet drove me away from any hope of liking or connecting with him at all.
There was so much wrong with the second movie...and it has all been said. I did like the brief moments when Luke's image showed up and Kylo flipped out and that whole sequence, but it was hardly enough to save the movie for me. I really do not see how this movie could be fixed without it being completely rewritten...and it is largely not the fault of the cast, except a few specific issues I have that I wont get into.
The Third movie again had lots of lazy writing, lots of ignoring established cannon just to try to make a visually exciting sequence (the lightspeed skipping nonsense), a poorly concieved plot overall, some poor visual choices (those Death Star Destroyers...really, just slapping a big gun on the bottom is the best they came up with...use one of the designs from Dark Empire at least - those looked cool). I did like when Rey used the decoder knife on the wreckage of the death Star to locate One Eyed Willey's galleon.
The Biggest problem I had was that the latest trilogy did not have nearly as cool a visual diversity of worlds, technology, or aliens. Too many of the Aliens looked like bad rubber masks to me. This, though, is not a fault exclusive to Disney. Lately a number of large budget films set in a diverse space setting have had far too many of the basic humanoid with different skin aliens you expect from Star Trek...and all of the ones I have in mind are from settings where the aliens pictured in source material are diverse, weird, inhuman, and at times grotesque. Say what you will about the cantina scene in Episode 4 but that sells the entire premise to me of just how vast the Star Wars Galaxy is...amplified by the Jabba Throne Room in Episode 6. Just the vast menagerie of aliens that are so different from humans but it is treated even by the humans as commonplace. This evoked a sense of wonder and scope in me as a kid, and it is what I found lacking most of the new trilogy. We did get to see some old favorites in some scenes... but just not enough.
I fear I may have crossed the line and made this a rant, which was not my intent.
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Yora
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:14 am Post subject: |
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After The Force Awakens, people said "This is just A New Hope, except with a NewLuke, New-R2D2, NewHan, NewVader, NewTarkin, NewEmperor, NewDeath Star, NewTatooine, NewCantina".
Then when The Last Jedi was approaching, people working on it said "This time we're really not going to do a remake of The Empire Strikes Back". But we did get a NewCloud City, New Hoth, with New Snow Speeders and New AT-ATs, and a New Super Star Destroyer, with Luke training NewLuke on NewDagobah (where his X-Wing has sunken into the water), where NewLuke goes into the NewDark Side Cave to have a spooky NewVision of the Dark Side.
The only thing I liked about the movie was putting a B-17 bomber in space (that felt super classic Star Wars) and the costume for Rose. (Which weirdly enough most other haters of the movie really hate.)
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Yora wrote: | | ...The only thing I liked about the movie was putting a B-17 bomber in space (that felt super classic Star Wars) and the costume for Rose. (Which weirdly enough most other haters of the movie really hate.) |
I had really mixed feelings about the bombers. I like the idea of something heavier than a fighter-bomber (y-wing) but was unhappy with the execution of it. They looked fine, just the way they played out in the film bothered me a bit.
I liked the Hyperspace ram - it canonized a theory I had to make a judgement call on decades ago.
I guess I could have said what I was trying with fewer words - to me the sequel trilogy felt like a lot of it was just phoned in or rehashed material as if in many aspects of production they just didn't put in the effort. They relied on the Star Wars name to carry whatever they produced.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | I had really mixed feelings about the bombers. I like the idea of something heavier than a fighter-bomber (y-wing) but was unhappy with the execution of it. They looked fine, just the way they played out in the film bothered me a bit. |
I have no problem with starbombers as a concept; I just prefer something a bit more versatile. The B-52, for example, has been in service for decades because of its ability to carry a huge variety of different weapon loadouts. The Starfortressi, on the other hand, seem to be a very bespoke design intended specifically to carry large numbers of freefall bombs.
If I had to come up with an explanation for the bombers, it would be to say that, quite often throughout history, battles are not fought with the weapons you want to have, but rather with what weapons you have available. This is doubly true in the case of a short, sharp, come-as-you-are war. IMO, the Starbombers weren't the weapons the Resistance wanted, but they were the weapons they had, and thus they had to improvise an anti-ship attack with freefall bombs. The disastrous casualties were due, in large part, to being forced to do the job with the wrong tools.
Regardless, freefall bombing in a vacuum is just silly, but I digress.
| Quote: | | I liked the Hyperspace ram - it canonized a theory I had to make a judgement call on decades ago. |
Same. It took some doing, but I did actually come up with an explanation for the Hyper-Ram that conforms to how hyperspace functions, while simultaneously being almost impossible to pull off.
| Quote: | | I guess I could have said what I was trying with fewer words - to me the sequel trilogy felt like a lot of it was just phoned in or rehashed material as if in many aspects of production they just didn't put in the effort. They relied on the Star Wars name to carry whatever they produced. |
This.
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KageRyu
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Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
Regardless, freefall bombing in a vacuum is just silly, but I digress.
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Yes, this is what does not sit well with me about them - though I have put thought into a possible explanation. Perhaps they were close enough to the Super Star Destroyer to be within it's artificial gravity pocket? Star Wars does play kind of fuzzy with those sorts of rules and it is never really established how far from a ship the Gravity field may extend (though logically it should not go far). This would also be the justification for the whole fight on the hull of the ships in the final movie (again a scene I had mixed feelings for - visually interesting but problematic).
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Yora
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:29 am Post subject: |
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It's such a needlessly stupid flaw. There really is nothing in the concept that would conflict with the payload being ejected by a launch mechanism. Just turn the bomb racks into magnetic catapults and you're golden. Same outcome, but it wouldn't look anywhere near as stupid. It would even seem plausible to have bombers that can spread the impacts over a large area instead of having torpedoes that fly only straight ahead.
Completely avoidable with just ten seconds of thought. Which contributes to the appearance that the movies were phoned in and the people in charge never really cared.
That you have an overly dramatic battle scene that turns into a massive slaughter right after really dumb childish jokes didn't help either.
But trying to evoke World War 2 war plane aesthetic in Star Wars again was a wonderful move. That hasn't really been done in decades and is one of the big factors that make Star Wars of the 2000s feel mismatched with the original concept.
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Ray
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I just figured that the bomb "racks" were just really, really slow firing gauss weapons. Gives a better and more accurate kick in an atmosphere, and allows "free fall" bombs in space.
Also, space opera, not hard SF. And all the starfighter items in the original trilogy are based off of WWII gun camera footage (this is why the Rebels shoot red lasers and the Imperials shoot green ones, BTW.). So, having a bomber that freefalls and carpetbombs something isn't out of the ordinary in concept compared to the original trilogy.
Them moving like a crippled bantha with a thorn in one of it's good feet, OTOH, yeah, not so much.
Better Fighter-Bombers like an upgraded Y-Wing or other newer design firing torpedoes and "rockets" (missiles) at the weak point. That's how they crippled the Bismark, after all. |
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Yora
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:40 am Post subject: |
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There is so much nice stuff you could do by going back to the sources that inspired the original movies...
This was one thing that really bothered me about Rogue One and had me give up on Disney Star Wars. Many people really like that one, and I guess it really could be a very solid movie judged on its own merits.
But to me, a top priority of a Star Wars movie is to feel like a continuation of the original classics. Rogue One did not feel like a Star Wars movie to me, but like a 2010s action war movie that had access to the Star Wars props warehouse. Star Wars costumes don't make a Star Wars story.
The same thing actually had me feel pretty good while I was watching The Last Jedi (I was visiting my parents over Christmas and they bought tickets without asking me). As soon as we got out and I started thinking about it, the good impression immediately began to fall apart, but visual style and cinematography did feel a lot more like Star Wars than in both the previous movies.
Having watched more old movies over the last few years and watching a lot of film critiques of those, really got me to think that even if you have all these new options with camera movement and CGI vehicles, and longer and more elaborate stunt sequences, it doesn't mean you should use them all the time. Even when CGI no longer looks like plastic with lighting that doesn't match the environment, you can still tell when you look at something that could not physically have been shot with an actual camera. You know you're watching an animation with actors' faces digitally inserted. Marvel Superhero movies are their own thing with their own style, so really no problem with that. Something like Star Wars is a completely different story, though.
Another movies with great amazing action from recent years was Fury Road. The stunts and vehicle action are on a completely different scale from what you had in the 80s and 90s. But it feels like it could have been shot with the camera operator actually riding in another car or sitting in a helicopter. (And I believe it was: The CGI on the movie was almost all compositing to not actually have real actors stand right next to real exploding cars, and color adjustment.)
I am still on the fence about the Mandalorian with serious doubts about the second season, but this is the main selling point about it for me. There actually are huge amounts of pure CGI in that show, but even when it does that, it still attempts to film shots that could have been filmed with an actual camera if those environments had been physical sets. It really looks great. Everything I've seen about the movies simply doesn't do that.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray wrote: | | Better Fighter-Bombers like an upgraded Y-Wing or other newer design firing torpedoes and "rockets" (missiles) at the weak point. That's how they crippled the Bismark, after all. |
An even more striking example would be the sinking of the Prince of Wales and Repulse, a feat performed by a combination of standard bombers and modified bombers dropping torpedoes. So yeah, the examples were certainly there if anyone had bothered to look.
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Yora
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Or at the very least, the Rebel command ship could have been hit in the engines by Tie Bombers after blowing up an Imperial Star Destroyer, being a sitting duck while the Imperial fleet is on its way.
Would have been a much better plot than the silly hyperspace tracker. And it would have made the trip to Space-Monaco unnecessary.*
Instead they could have gone on a mission to get transports to evacuate the crew from the cruiser before its inevitable destruction. And it could have been all cloak and dagger because only an Imperial planet is close enough and they have to hide what they need the transports for. Could even have made friends with the local Frenchmen who get motivated to take action against the Empire.
Actually, there's a whole Operation Dynamo situation to draw from as well.
But it turns out they don't have enough transports to take everyone at the same time, so they gamble and only take the Rebels to the nearby desert planet so they can return to the cruiser and make several trips.
That would make getting NewHan into a fight with admiral purple pointless. Though it was already pointless to begin with. So he could just go with the Ex-Imperial Janitor (actually can't remember his name right now) and Rose, giving him something to do and contribute.
Did I just fix half of the movie with zero effort in 5 minutes? I think I did.
*While I liked the concept of the planet, dressing up aliens in 20th century suits felt completely inappropriate for Star Wars.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:22 pm Post subject: EU References in the DT |
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EU References in the DT
Ben Solo - Ben Skywalker
Kylo Ren - Kybo Ren
The First Order - Heir to the Empire
Kylo Ren is the heir apparent to Lord Vader - Heir to the Empire
The New Republic
Luke's New Jedi Order
Force Projection - Dark Empire power
Sith Eternal Cult / Final Order - resurrected Palpatine's Dark Empire
"The Final Order" - "The Last Command"
Dark Force Rising - The Rise of Skywalker
Sith Fleet - Katana Fleet
Exegol - Byss
Sith Eternal Cult - Prophets of the Dark Side
Sith Troopers - the Reborn
Sith Sovereign Protectors - Imperial Sovereign Protectors
Dyad in the Force - Luke & Leia using Force Harmony to destroy Palpatine in DE
Palpatine "father" of failed clone - Triclops mutant son of Palpatine
Rey, Palpatine's granddaughter - Ken, Palpatine's grandson (Jedi Prince)
Palpatine's transfer essence power
Ben Solo/Kylo Ren- Jacen Solo/Darth ?
Luke's Force Ghost - that far future comic book
There's a lot of the EU I'm not familiar with. Any other EU inspirations in the Disney Trio?
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Grimace
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:12 am Post subject: |
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I can't think of any more in the trilogy, but there are many others in other Disney releases. The ones off the top of my head:
Darksaber - The Mandalorian
Vader's Citadel - Rogue One
Beskar - The Mandalorian
Imperial Troop Transport - The Mandalorian
Non-Imperial Swoops - The Mandalorian
Imperial Army Troopers - Solo
I know there are more, but unless I'm watching the shows, I cannot think of too many of them. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:46 am Post subject: |
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This is a thread about the "sequel trilogy" which is why I only asked about EU influences in those three films here.
Non-Imperial swoops? When has there been Imperial swoops? Do you mean non-Imperial speeder bikes?
Non-Imperials swoops appeared in ANH (since 1997) and AotC. Disney also had non-Imperial swoops in Solo before The Mandalorian.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Found another "The Drinker Fixes" video, this time focusing on Poe's character arc in TLJ, and by extension, Rose Tico's. This builds from the Poe character arc described in the video I posted earlier about fixing Rey, so if you want the complete arc, watch that one first. No Guideline violations in this one; the closest it gets is a reference to Holdo as "Poe has his own problems." So, obligatory NSFW language warning, and enjoy the video.
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