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The Bissler
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Joined: 08 Jun 2016
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 Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:30 am Post subject: Capital Ship Battle Rules? |
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Hi,
At first reading, it seems that once Capital Ships are involved, the rules are extremely clunky. Even taking into account front, left and right firing arcs which I can't find reference to in REUP - but I have a terrible eye for detail - you'd be talking about rolling 20 odd dice pools when a Star Destroyer fires. I can imagine that would be incredibly tedious in play, even with Roll20 coming to the rescue in totalling dice rolls.
Is there a system which simplifies Capital Ship Combat?
I've come up with the following system, but I'm sure someone has something better elsewhere here.
1) For every 6 weapons being fired (rounding down fractions), make one roll to hit. Make corresponding Capital Ship Piloting skills to dodge.
2) For each roll that 'hit', make a single damage roll and multiply it by 6.
3) For each damage roll made against you, make a single Hull + Shields roll and also multiply it by 6.
4) Aggregate the damage between 3) and 4) and divide by 6, rounding down
5) Apply the damage for the hit.
E.g. Star Destroyer v Nebulon-B
A Star Destroyer has a Nebulon-B in its front arc which has 24 Turbolasers. Therefore:
1) 4 rolls to hit are made. In this example, 3 of the 4 rolls hit.
2) 3 rolls of 6D Turbolaser Damage are made and each is multiplied by 6. The results are 90, 132, & 144
3) 3 rolls of Hull (3D+2) plus Shields (2D) 5d+2 are made and each is multiplied by 6. The results are 90, 85, 87
4) Hit One: 0, Hit Two: 47/6 = 8, Hit Three: 57/6 = 9
5) The Nebulon B suffers a Shields Blown/Controls Ionised result, and is Lightly and Heavily Damaged.
I know that as the Nebulon-B took 3 hits, you could argue that all 18 damage should be rolled, but it seems like the Nebulon-B would be destroyed outright in the blink of an eye. I suspect this would be the case even if you rolled all the dice pools individually.I don't think it's very satisfactory to have an engagement between two behemoths that literally lasts 5 seconds...
I'm also toying with the idea of the volleys of 6 shots being used to target fighters and reduce the scale bonus that fighters enjoy - currently thinking that a -1D per 6 shot volley targeted at a single formation might work.
Using the same Star Destroyer against a fighter squadron:
4 rolls to hit are made for the 24 turbo lasers fired at the formation. With so many shots coming in, the Starfighter Piloting rolls are made at -4D (equivalent to +2D overall because of scale).
Only a single damage roll is made as the assumption is that only one of the 6 hits has actually clipped a fighter.
Scale damage is applied as usual, meaning a hit from a Capital scale weapon is still likely to destroy a fighter.
Thoughts? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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The thing is, a Nebulon-B realistically shouldn't last longer than one round against an ISD, as the ISD far outmasses and outguns the Nebulon. If you're looking for a more drawn-out battle, you need to pair the ISD against something in its own weight class, like an MC80.
Your version is an interesting take, especially as it addresses the possibility of a ship taking damage to multiple different systems in the same round. However, it does make it a lot harder to actually destroy a ship, since there's no way to combine fire for a "full broadside".
The simplest way to handle capital ship combat is to think of a ship in terms of either a single "character" (i.e. the ship is one entity acting on its own), or as a space transport writ large (with the characters serving similar roles as they would aboard a small freighter, except that they are division officers, each handling a specific system of the ship - piloting, gunnery, shields, etc.).
I have some links to my own theories on capital ship combat, but I'm 99% sure I already posted them for you in another topic...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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The Bissler
Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2016
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I have some links to my own theories on capital ship combat, but I'm 99% sure I already posted them for you in another topic... |
Yes, there was a link within the Tactics discussion to this discussion which was very interesting!:
https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7065&highlight=
I don't know if there was something missing from the discussion or if it was my own stupidity, but I couldn't quite follow some of the detail of the conversation. There's no doubt though that reading that thread definitely suggested the idea about treating the fighters as a single unit in the way I've suggested.
I would - very respectfully - disagree on the point about ships not lasting more than a single round due to what is seen in the films:
Return of the Jedi only seems to show Capital Ships being destroyed by the Death Star and there are a lot of Star Destroyers involved in the battle. 2 minutes of game time equates to 24 rounds of combat and, although it is hard to tell from the intercutting, it seems the battle goes on a lot longer than that - and Rebel Capital Ships survive the whole way through.
Revenge of the Sith also shows Capital Ships, including some engaged in point blank exchanges. Yes, the Invisible Hand is effectively destroyed, but it takes a lot longer than five seconds. The Capital Ships in the background again seem to be able to last a good amount of time, far more than 5 seconds.
You could, of course, throw Rogue One as an example back at me where a few Y-Wings disable a Star Destroyer in a matter of seconds!
More importantly though, I don't want these exchanges to last a single round of combat as I see no story - or fun - in that. To be honest, I'm not sure my own suggested changes slow the action enough for an entire battle!
The best way forward may be for me to set out the action from round to round, e.g. in "Round One: Imperial Ship X loses 1 shield, Rebel Ship Y loses 2 shields" but I find that approach too prescriptive and I don't railroading anything; I'd prefer to play it out with simplified rolls which retain the element of chance yet maintain some relationship with the hardware of the ships. Probably impossible to do though! |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bissler wrote: | | I would - very respectfully - disagree on the point about ships not lasting more than a single round due to what is seen in the films: |
To clarify, I'm not saying that all capital ship combat will last a round, just that your example of a Nebulon-B vs. Imperial Star Destroyer is almost certain to, as the Nebulon-B lacks the firepower to inflict serious damage to the ISD, the armor and shielding to withstand a full broadside from it, or the speed and maneuverability needed to outrun or outmaneuver it. An MC80, on the other hand, is more of a match for an ISD, and thus any combat between an ISD and an MC80 will likely last several rounds.
The problem is not your general premise; it's your choice of example.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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The Bissler
Commander
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Got you, no problem! I had thought that the Nebulon-B was about double the size it actually is.
Because no stats exist for the Providence-class ship, I was planning on statting it far closer to the MC80, as much for the sake of the encounter and keeping it intact for a reasonable amount of time. I suspect that it probably shouldn't be as good as that, particularly as the Providence-class looks a lot narrower and flimsier, but if I'm going to house rule one thing for the encounter, I may as well go full pelt and house rule whatever I else I want to! |
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Raven Redstar
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The Bissler
Commander
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Posts: 260
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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These are great, thanks RR! Quite pleased to see the Providence-class is tougher than I expected!
I think I'll modify the formula to 5 rather than 6 as there seems to be more weapons split across ship arcs divisible by 5 rather than 6. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bissler wrote: | Got you, no problem! I had thought that the Nebulon-B was about double the size it actually is.
Because no stats exist for the Providence-class ship, I was planning on statting it far closer to the MC80, as much for the sake of the encounter and keeping it intact for a reasonable amount of time. I suspect that it probably shouldn't be as good as that, particularly as the Providence-class looks a lot narrower and flimsier, but if I'm going to house rule one thing for the encounter, I may as well go full pelt and house rule whatever I else I want to! |
This is complicated by the fact that there are two "official" variants of the Providence, one ~1100 meters long, and the other ~2200 meters. If I were to stat it out, I'd most likely go with longer variant. Of course, Lucasfilm did the same with the Recusant, but both versions cite obscure and/or outdated references.
As I mentioned in the other post, any stat for the Providence (and for any of the other Separatist vessels, for that matter) is going to be different from their Clone Wars era stats, as the ships will have to be extensively modified to accept an organic crew. One possible work-around would be to have a large percentage of work stations being occupied by droid brains hard-wired into the consoles...
There are also weapons issues, particularly with the Providence, as it appears to use a lot of belt-fed proton torpedo launchers in place of turbolasers (with a maximum ammo capacity of 2800 proton torpedoes for the entire ship). IMO, any Providence refitted for Alliance service would remove these launchers in favor of more standard turbolasers.
I suppose I could bang something out for you along those lines, but a lot of it would be pure guesswork.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Also, this may interest you; it's my stat write-up for the MC75 from Rogue One, which I have rechristened as a Separatist Profundity-Class Star Cruiser. It's got the fire power needed to go toe-to-toe with an ISD.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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The Bissler
Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2016
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | The Bissler wrote: | Got you, no problem! I had thought that the Nebulon-B was about double the size it actually is.
Because no stats exist for the Providence-class ship, I was planning on statting it far closer to the MC80, as much for the sake of the encounter and keeping it intact for a reasonable amount of time. I suspect that it probably shouldn't be as good as that, particularly as the Providence-class looks a lot narrower and flimsier, but if I'm going to house rule one thing for the encounter, I may as well go full pelt and house rule whatever I else I want to! |
This is complicated by the fact that there are two "official" variants of the Providence, one ~1100 meters long, and the other ~2200 meters. If I were to stat it out, I'd most likely go with longer variant. Of course, Lucasfilm did the same with the Recusant, but both versions cite obscure and/or outdated references.
As I mentioned in the other post, any stat for the Providence (and for any of the other Separatist vessels, for that matter) is going to be different from their Clone Wars era stats, as the ships will have to be extensively modified to accept an organic crew. One possible work-around would be to have a large percentage of work stations being occupied by droid brains hard-wired into the consoles...
There are also weapons issues, particularly with the Providence, as it appears to use a lot of belt-fed proton torpedo launchers in place of turbolasers (with a maximum ammo capacity of 2800 proton torpedoes for the entire ship). IMO, any Providence refitted for Alliance service would remove these launchers in favor of more standard turbolasers.
I suppose I could bang something out for you along those lines, but a lot of it would be pure guesswork. |
Yes, I'm ignoring those proton torpedoes altogether! It's a total game changer! The Rebels have been building up Nowhere since the start of the campaign but having anything like that number of torpedoes is crazy.
The point about the crew is another thing I'd overlooked. There's only supposed to be around 50 members of Reekeene's on board the vessel. Droids are the perfect solution, so I think their rival team will suddenly discover an old Separatist droid foundry with enough droids to "man" the guns.
I'll have a look at the MC75 stats, thanks! I don't want the ship to be too powerful because I want the Rebels to feel like they don't have a chance and that it's a race against time to deal with the Interdictor before the Imperial-class Star Destroyer arrives and destroys them.
Thanks for all the advice! As ever, the kindness of yourself and everyone in this excellent community is much appreciated! |
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Happy to help!
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RR
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bissler wrote: | | The point about the crew is another thing I'd overlooked. There's only supposed to be around 50 members of Reekeene's on board the vessel. Droids are the perfect solution, so I think their rival team will suddenly discover an old Separatist droid foundry with enough droids to "man" the guns. |
That dovetails nicely with what I posited earlier about how to run capital ships. With droids as the crew, you can have a handful of organic PCs giving commands to said droids, effectively operating the ship's systems by proxy via the Command Skill.
| Quote: | | I'll have a look at the MC75 stats, thanks! I don't want the ship to be too powerful because I want the Rebels to feel like they don't have a chance and that it's a race against time to deal with the Interdictor before the Imperial-class Star Destroyer arrives and destroys them. |
Hmm. W/r/t what I said elsewhere about jamming, it makes a lot more sense for the Interdictor to be hiding behind the ISD, instead of the other way around. The gravity well projectors have the longest range of any weapon in the game, and having the Interdictor positioned behind the ISD means any threat to the Interdictor has to go past the ISD.
Of course, that leaves room for a small, fast capital ship (corvette or frigate range) to sweep around the flank and attack the Interdictor while the ISD and the Providence duke it out...
| Quote: | | Thanks for all the advice! As ever, the kindness of yourself and everyone in this excellent community is much appreciated! |
Hey, no problem. It's nice to have a place where our otherwise useless knowledge of Star Wars gaming minutiae has value. 
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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The Bissler
Commander
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That dovetails nicely with what I posited earlier about how to run capital ships. With droids as the crew, you can have a handful of organic PCs giving commands to said droids, effectively operating the ship's systems by proxy via the Command Skill. |
Agreed! I've sounded out the player who is the former Star Destroyer Captain about how he would feel about running Nowhere based on his Command Skill - giving him control of the movement of the ship and responsibility to make the rolls to hit as well as Hull/Shield rolls for incoming fire - and he's up for it! He's suggested that we might want to try out a practice session so he is clear about it when it comes around (probably about 4 weeks' time). I may simply run a Providence v Imperial Class Star Destroyer head to head and see how it goes and if my dice rolling tweaks work. It'll be interesting to see how much punishment the Providence stands up to against the Star Destroyer.
| Quote: | W/r/t what I said elsewhere about jamming, it makes a lot more sense for the Interdictor to be hiding behind the ISD, instead of the other way around. The gravity well projectors have the longest range of any weapon in the game, and having the Interdictor positioned behind the ISD means any threat to the Interdictor has to go past the ISD.
Of course, that leaves room for a small, fast capital ship (corvette or frigate range) to sweep around the flank and attack the Interdictor while the ISD and the Providence duke it out... |
I completely agree it makes way more sense for the Star Destroyer to shield the Interdictor - indeed, although I never mentioned it here, it was my initial thought on how it should be. The only reason I was reluctant to run it like that was because I was worried that the Star Destroyer would obliterate Nowhere before it even got close to the Interdictor. I feel a little more confident with the stats Nowhere has that it should be able to take a lot more punishment than I initially thought, so am more likely to run it as you suggest. The playtest I mentioned above will likely inform my final decision on this.
A Corvette would be another addition which would be helpful, but I'm worried that it would be a too much of a stretch to have the Roughnecks conveniently receive a whole host of droids and a Corvette on the eve of battle. The players do have their freighter and 12 fighters. If they decide to ignore the bait of the Raiders, then hopefully the entire squadron will hit the Interdictor with everything they've got!
As this will be the first ever Capital-scale engagement I've run, I'm hoping it shapes up to be exciting and memorable for all concerned! |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bissler wrote: | | I've sounded out the player who is the former Star Destroyer Captain about how he would feel about running Nowhere based on his Command Skill - giving him control of the movement of the ship and responsibility to make the rolls to hit as well as Hull/Shield rolls for incoming fire - and he's up for it! He's suggested that we might want to try out a practice session so he is clear about it when it comes around (probably about 4 weeks' time). I may simply run a Providence v Imperial Class Star Destroyer head to head and see how it goes and if my dice rolling tweaks work. It'll be interesting to see how much punishment the Providence stands up to against the Star Destroyer. |
Do you intend to use the official WEG stats for the ISD? If so, I suggest making the Providence a "modified" version with the armament being something along similar lines (turbolasers, ion cannon, tractor beams and some point defense laser cannon, since I assume the ship isn't going to have a starfighter complement). That will greatly simplify the mid-combat math of combining fire from multiple weapon types.
Frankly, the WEG stat system has a lot of issues that, while passable for the smaller craft characters are most likely to be operating, don't translate well into capital ship battles. I have a lot of ideas for solutions to this, but they render the stat block nearly unrecognizable. This is, however, an area of interest for me, so if you'd like my input on the rules and the practice session, I'd be more than happy to help.
| Quote: | | A Corvette would be another addition which would be helpful, but I'm worried that it would be a too much of a stretch to have the Roughnecks conveniently receive a whole host of droids and a Corvette on the eve of battle. The players do have their freighter and 12 fighters. If they decide to ignore the bait of the Raiders, then hopefully the entire squadron will hit the Interdictor with everything they've got! |
That's a possibility, too. I've done a lot of work on starfighter combat, including stats for things like starfighter-launched anti-ship missiles or space bombs (as from the X-Wing PC Game). What sorts of starfighters will you be working with?
Under normal circumstances, you could just have the PCs operating their freighter as an ad hoc starbomber, with the capital ship battle just described in the background, but it sounds like a good chance for your retired Imperial Captain to shine. The big obstacle there is how to translate the Command and Tactics skills into concrete advantages in actual combat. I've messed with this, but never really been able to make it work in a streamlined fashion.
| Quote: | | As this will be the first ever Capital-scale engagement I've run, I'm hoping it shapes up to be exciting and memorable for all concerned! |
I'm very interested to see how this works out, as well. The biggest piece of advice I can offer is to remember the KISS principle, and keep it simple. If you'd like my input, my schedule is pretty open at the moment (stuck at home with a knee injury).
Mind you, I'm pretty far down the rabbit hole into my own set of house rules. I think a lot of it is superior to the WEG rules, but may not be your cup of tea if you're looking for something simple.
EDIT: You should sign up for the Rancor Pit group on Discord. It's a much better format for a fast-paced discussion.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Also, on a review of the Retired Imperial Captain template, I have to say that the skill list doesn't seem to fit what would be needed to actually command a capital ship, even a small one. IMO, ship command should include a basic knowledge of the ship's systems, so the skill list should include CS Piloting, CS Gunnery, CS Shields and CS Repair, in addition to Command and Tactics. What's on the template suggests that this character never commanded anything heavier than a space transport.
And why would a space captain need the Beast Riding skill?
IMO, the Privateer Captain template is a better baseline, and actually comes with an appropriate ship to command (either a Corellian Corvette or Light Frigate).
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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