Why can't I just drink TCW kool-aid?!

[Whill]

This week on Twitter, Pablo Hidalgo of the Canon Story Group posted the sentiment that The Clone Wars animated series is the biggest education on how George Lucas saw his universe because of it having over 44 hours of his storytelling compared to the 13 or so hours total run time of the live action films. I took issue with that because I see a very clear divide on Lucas' view of the Star Wars universe between the conclusion of his live action films in 2005 and the onset of TCW in 2008. I engaged him about it. He responded and we had a little back and forth about it.

The classic films explicitly establish that Anakin had been an apprentice of Obi-Wan and had become a full-fledged Jedi Knight at some point. In ANH, Vader indicates that when he and Obi-Wan had last met, Vader hadn't been much more than a "learner". And of course, Vader was Anakin.

From 2002 to 2005, the Clone Wars Multimedia Project was a three-year project created by Lucasfilm to tell the story of the three-year-long Clone Wars roughly in real time, between AotC and RotS. Books marked "A Clone Wars Novel" had a timeline in them that gave the number of months after The Battle of Geonosis in which the stories took place, 0-36 since RotS took place close to three years later. (There seemed to be some rounding going on, placing a lot of things in six-months increments.)

George Lucas provided some general guidance to the project's timeline of events as he was producing RotS, what the project was building up to. One of the major events that came directly from George Lucas was Anakin Skywalker's promotion to Jedi Knight, which was said to occur in approximately Month 30, or about 6 months before RotS. This gave Anakin about two and half years to appear to the Jedi as recovered from his mother's traumatic death in his arms causing Yoda to feel his pain across the galaxy. This late Knighthood made sense with all prior film continuity and RotS. Anakin was a full-fledged Jedi Knight before RotS in which he converts to Sith and becomes Vader, but it hadn't been too long since he had been a padawan learner. (I can't imagine a padawan being able to spend the night wherever he wants without his master knowing, so Anakin's promotion to Knighthood before being shipped off to the Outer Rim Sieges may have been celebrated with Padme, resulting in the conception of the twins.) There is no indication of Anakin ever having his own padawan, but there wouldn't need to be at the time for the sake of any existing continuity.

The success of the Star Wars: Clone Wars cartoon that aired from 2003 to 2005 prompted Lucas to start developing a 3D sequel series as he was finishing RotS in 2005. The original stated intention was not to contradict any previously published Clone Wars continuity, but at some point over the next three years, radical changes were introduced. George Lucas made the new character Ahsoka into Anakin's padawan. The bulk of the previously published continuity was jammed into the first month after AotC to make breathing room for the new continuity, and that had to include Anakin's promotion to Jedi Knight for him to have his own padawan.

The whole TCW series is a commercially motivated afterthought to Lucas' film saga and not a part of Lucas' view of his Star Wars universe as of 2005. Lucas thought of giving Anakin a padawan because it was new and original, not because it supported the film saga. By comparing the total viewing hours of TCW to Lucas' six live action films, Hidalgo was suggesting that TCW is the most informing on Lucas' view of the SWU. My main point to Hidalgo was that TCW only represents Lucas view post-2005 and thus TCW is hardly representative of Lucas' view as of 2005.

When I tried to make my points about the time shift in Anakin's promotion to Knighthood and Anakin being assigned a padawan, he spouted off what seems to me like programmed responses. Yoda gave Anakin a padawan to help him with his attachment issues, and Anakin was promoted to Knighthood so early because the Republic needed another general and Anakin couldn't have a padawan unless he was no longer a padawan himself. These come across to me as if Lucas has the Jedi Mind Trick and they are robotically repeated back.

I do see that the Jedi Order is flawed. Yoda even says so in AotC. However Yoda felt Anakin's intense darkness literally across the galaxy. Yoda had already held strong reservations on Anakin being trained as a Jedi in the first place, so right after his galactic pain, the Jedi Order is going to promote him to Knight? Really? And then give this deeply troubled young man his own padawan? The Jedi Order is flawed but that doesn't mean they are completely inept bumbling idiots. Anakin is the LAST padawan that should be promoted to Knight so soon after AotC, and the last padawan that should be given his own padawan so soon after AotC. Grave danger do I fear in these reckless Jedi Council actions! And they just don't make sense with the live action films.

What is wrong with me?! Why can't I get on just get on board with these things? Why can't I just drink TCW kool-aid everyone else seems to have?!



EDIT:
Please do not post TCW s7 spoilers here. See the dedicated "Spoilers Allowed" thread for Disney+'s The Clone Wars-The Final Season.
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[Solo4114]

I don't see that Hidalgo's response is actually a response to your point. Actually, I think you guys are talking past each other. That's part of the problem.

You're suggesting that Hidalgo's statement of "TCW is George's most complete version of the Star Wars Universe" is not precise. And you're right; it isn't.

Lucas' vision changed, and that's your point. As proof of that, you offer the timeline shifts in the 2002-2005 TCW timeline vs. the post-2005 TCW timeline (e.g., Anakin has no padawan before ROTS vs. Anakin is given a padawan before ROTS).

Hidalgo's response is to explain why Anakin was given a padawan. His answer doesn't resolve what you point out -- the change in the timeline.

It may be that Hidalgo is simply used to responding to people asking why, but all you're doing is pointing out the fact that it changed, not asking for an explanation.

I don't think the explanation is bad, but it doesn't respond to the underlying point you're making: a change occurred, ergo the statement of "Most complete vision" is imprecise.


At the core, this is a perpetual issue with Lucas' approach to Star Wars. There's this myth that he always had everything mapped out in his mind (or on a yellow legal pad) and that nothing ever changed. And that simply isn't true. The story changed, even between movies, and quite obviously. If Leia was always intended to be Luke's sister, then...dude, that's some seriously weird stuff in the first and second films, what with the love triangle and all. Ick. But, obviously, she wasn't always meant to be Luke's sister. That was a later addition.

Likewise, the notion that the timeline was always that Anakin had a padawan and was made a knight shortly after Geonosis is clearly false, as evidenced by the pre-2005 version of the timeline. The timeline changed. Let's not try to pretend otherwise.

This, in turn, affects the notion of a "complete" vision. What does that actually mean, anyway? Is a vision "complete" if it doesn't encompass the older versions of continuity that were changed and discarded? Or do we mean that a vision is "complete" because it's the last thing Lucas put down? What if, in some alternate universe, Lucas still owns Star Wars, Hidalgo makes this statement, and then a year from now, Lucas retcons the entirety of TCW? Is it still his "complete" vision? Completeness implies a sense of finality, as if the work will never be revised, but hey, this is Lucas we're talking about, and the work is never even abandoned, let alone finished. (Well, abandoned/sold now, but you get my point.)

I think a more precise statement is that TCW likely represents Lucas' largest expression of what he believed the Star Wars galaxy to be at the time, and just leave it at that. "Completeness" can't really be applied to a work that evolved/mutated over time.

[Whill]

I certainly wasn't even suggesting that Lucas only had two views of the Star Wars universe in his life. It definitely did change multiple times. Lucas has said that Vader was always planned to be Luke's father. There is almost no evidence to support that and a lot of evidence to support that it wasn't planned until after the original film's release, during pre-production for TESB. So it is possible but very unlikely. However Lucas has admitted that Leia wasn't always Luke's sister. The "Other" Yoda spoke of in TESB was originally intended to be a new long-lost-sister character that would be introduced in a sequel trilogy. (At that point Palpatine wasn't even going to be in Episode IV so he wouldn't be defeated until Episode IX or XII.) Early in preproduction for RotJ (1980), Lucas decided to wrap-up the story in VI and just made Leia be the sister.

But it is true that as of the completion of his film saga in 2005, all of the revisions over the years had lead to one definitive vision he had that encompassed his complete live action film saga. No matter how it changed and what it looked like at any point over all the years, in 2005 he was done with the live action films and RotS was the end point (which lead back to the starting point of ANH, giving new context to the classic films). But after that he continued to make more Star Wars products as was his prerogative, and his vision changed as was his prerogative. Retcons happen.

Hidalgo's statement was that TCW was the "biggest" education of Lucas' view of his Star Wars universe, and that technically isn't incorrect, but I felt it had an implication of there being only one view where there is a clear divide of differing views between the film saga's completion in 2005 and the launch of the TCW in 2008. What I was trying to get at was that TCW provides a skewed view of his film universe so you really have to separate the two to make sense out of either one. The only thing that TCW provides a clear view of is TCW. I wasn't just trying to point out that there had been changes. I ultimately felt it was responsible to point out that TCW is not educational for the film saga. But it feels like I am the only one who thinks that.

So here I ask, why am I one of the only ones take issue with the Jedi order promoting Anakin only one month after his terrible pain of his mother's death reached across the galaxy? Why am I one of the only ones that takes issue with The Jedi giving Anakin his own padawan? Why am I one of the only ones that feels the Jedi Order should not be that idiotic? I feel like everyone has the kool-aid that magically makes them think TCW jives with the films except me!
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[Whill]

The Jedi High Council after the clone war begins...


KI-ADI-MUNDI: ...Now that the Sith have returned, the Republic finds itself in yet another galactic war. What are Chancellor Palpatine's intentions?

MACE WINDU: Palpatine is speaking of more drastic loyalist measures in hopes of revealing separatist leanings in neutral sectors, but I fear it may drive more outer rim senators to supporting Dooku's rebellion. The Dark Side is rising in the senate chambers.

YODA: And a few more generals, the new clone army will need. A list of Jedi Knight candidates, I have prepared for promotion consideration.

KI-ADI-MUNDI: Skywalker should be knighted.

MACE WINDU: Skywalker?! Yoda, perhaps now would be a good time to report to the council on Skywalker's assignment protecting Senator Amidala.

YODA: Yes. Plagued by nightmares about his mother, Skywalker had been for weeks. From Naboo to Tatooine, Skywalker and Amidala raced. Captured by angry natives and tortured, his mother had been. Near death, she was when Skywalker found her. Died in his arms, she did--

KI-ADI-MUNDI: Excellent!

Mace gives Ki an ice cold stare while Yoda's mouth hangs open in disbelief.

KI-ADI-MUNDI: That resolves his attachment issue you rambled on about 10 years ago when you opposed his acceptance into the Jedi Order. Fear, anger, hate, suffering, blah, blah, blah. Dead mother, problem solved.

YODA: Skywalker's terrible pain, I felt.

MACE WINDU: I was there. Yoda felt Skywalker's immense suffering all the way across the galaxy!

YODA: A whirlwind of emotions, Skywalker still is.

KI-ADI-MUNDI: Well, we could wait a few weeks and then make him a Jedi Knight. He'll be fine. "The Chosen One the boy may be," remember?

YODA: Yes. But grave danger did I fear in his training. Now, matters are worse.

KI-ADI-MUNDI: We are at war. Skywalker must be knighted. What do the rest of you think? All those in favor of Skywalker being knighted?

JEDI COUNCIL MASTERS (in unison, except Mace and Yoda): Ay.

YODA: Literally the last candidate for knighthood, Skywalker should be. Better to promote padawans at random, it would be.

KI-ADI-MUNDI (leaning towards Yoda and waving his hand): You WILL promote Skywalker to Jedi Knight.

MACE WINDU: Do you really think the Mind Trick is going to work on Yoda?!

YODA: Disturbing, this is.

All the masters but Yoda and Mace raise cups and take a drink.

MACE WINDU: Since when did we allow beverages in the council chamber?

KI-ADI-MUNDI: Here, Master. You sound thirsty. (Ki hands Yoda his cup.)

YODA: Parched, I am. Try it, I will.

KI-ADI-MUNDI: Do, or do not. There is no try.

Yoda takes a sip.

YODA: Hhmm. Good, this is.

MACE WINDU: What is it?

KI-ADI-MUNDI: It's called "TCW Kool-Aid".

YODA: Tastes like blackberries and sugar, it does.

KI-ADI-MUNDI: What do you think now?

YODA: Confer on Skywalker the level of Jedi Knight, we will.

MACE WINDU: What?!

Yoda gulps down the rest of the drink.

YODA: Entrust Skywalker with his own padawan, we will.

MACE WINDU: I don't trust him with a clone squad let alone a padawan! This is insanity. And besides, Skywalker would never take a padawan.

KI-ADI-MUNDI: We will make him take a padawan for his own good.

MACE WINDU: The code forbids it. Masters choose their own padawans--

Yoda burps louder than a Hutt.

YODA: A padawan, Skywalker never should have been in the first place. Now even more emotional and deeply troubled by his attachments, this boy is. Right, we will make this by promoting him to Jedi Knight and assigning him a padawan on the next full moon.

MACE WINDU: Listen here motherfu...
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[Dredwulf60]

[ThrorII]

Whill, that is awesome!!!!!

I started reading it thinking it was an excerpt from one of the 2002-2005 books, then it started getting weird, then I finally realized....this is satire!!! Boy, I'm slow.

Back to your initial point, Star Wars has always...'evolved'.....
The First Movie laid groundwork that Empire and Jedi...'evolved'....
The Original Trilogy laid groundwork that the Prequels....'evolved'...
The Prequels laid groundwork that The Clone Wars....'evolved'....

As much as I love Star Wars, they are better watched in 'groupings' than as a coherent story.
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[cheshire]

[TauntaunScout]

[CRMcNeill]

[Whill]

[Whill]

[TauntaunScout]

The application of even rudimentary historical methodology to this corpus of work rapidly disabuses one of the notion that Lucas ever had a cohesive vision.

At this point my in-universe explanation is that all the SW media we see, are historical fiction from within the SW universe. Just like Terran historical fiction, some of their historical fiction is better and/or more historically accurate than others.

[cheshire]

[TauntaunScout]

Course we have a different take than the average fan anyways cause we are deep cut WEG fans. The whole concept of SW continuity and an EU and all that has an awful lot to do with the need for some kind of coherent RPG rules. So just being on this message board probably selects out for people who value consistency within the brand more than the average fan.

So far, probably only The Mandalorian might have lived up to the heritage of the OT. Time will tell. The OT earned a place with Lawrence of Arabia, The Wizard of Oz, and so forth, in that it gets referenced by people who haven't even seen it.

If you speak modern English, you constantly reference the King James Bible and William Shakespeare whether you know it or not. Usually not. Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back managed to break into the western Lexicon at almost that level with endless references to paternity and force use. It's still possible that "This is the way" or "I have spoken" will manage something similar.

In 100 years people will still be misquoting the first two movies. In all likliehood, very few people will care about any other aspect of the franchise as we presently know it. Which is why it's all the more irritating to me that Lucas hates the theatrical release versions of the OT so much.

We're coming up on 100 years of Bela Lugosi's version of Dracula and the debut of The Lone Ranger franchise pretty soon. People still reference them even though they've never seen them. People endlessly quote Casablanca without even knowing it. People quote WoZ all the time and few of them have actually sat through and watched it. That's the level of cultural success the OT has hit, and no one even tries to live up to it. It's a sad commentary on the current state of capitalism.

[cheshire]

That is an interesting perspective. I've I could give a thumbs up to your post, I would.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.