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griff
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Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 507
Location: Tacoma, WA
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 Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:14 am Post subject: Thing I've missed for 30 years |
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Recently reading the First Edition Rule book again, I have read it countless times, I seemed to have missed two things. There is a lightsaber skill mentioned on page 16. I never picked that up before. None of the force using templates in the back had it listed (the wookie had wookie bowcaster listed and thought native had black-powder pistol listed. Luke, Ben, and Vader all had it listed in the sourcebook. It is not listed in the skill section of the rule book either. But none the less the lightsaber skill is in the core rule book.
The other thing is that I had always wondered why melee was listed on the character sheet after melee parry because it is proper on an alphabetized list to have any same word to be listed after if another word followed. When I was reading through the the DEX skill I finally saw that the proper name of the melee skill is actually melee weapons
It only took 30 years to find out.
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Pel
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Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 983
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Don't feel bad. I still find things in those old books I missed 30 years ago. Probably the only reason we knew there was a lightsaber skill is due to our one Jedi, who mostly used a blaster for fear of self-amputation. 
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Narmer
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Joined: 04 Feb 2020
Posts: 26
Location: Washington, the State not the City
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| What surprised me when I first read the Sourcebook 10 years ago was that Vader, Obi-Wan and Luke had the lightsaber skill but Yoda didn't. After thinking about it it made some sense but it really surprised me at first. |
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ThrorII
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 12 Jul 2019
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Narmer wrote: | | What surprised me when I first read the Sourcebook 10 years ago was that Vader, Obi-Wan and Luke had the lightsaber skill but Yoda didn't. After thinking about it it made some sense but it really surprised me at first. |
Palpatine didn't either. Yoda and Palpy were viewed as 'beyond' lightsabers.
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Whill
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Narmer
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Joined: 04 Feb 2020
Posts: 26
Location: Washington, the State not the City
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Narmer wrote: | | What surprised me when I first read the Sourcebook 10 years ago was that Vader, Obi-Wan and Luke had the lightsaber skill but Yoda didn't. After thinking about it it made some sense but it really surprised me at first. |
Narmer, welcome to the Pit! |
Thank you! |
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Narmer
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Joined: 04 Feb 2020
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Location: Washington, the State not the City
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ThrorII wrote: | | Narmer wrote: | | What surprised me when I first read the Sourcebook 10 years ago was that Vader, Obi-Wan and Luke had the lightsaber skill but Yoda didn't. After thinking about it it made some sense but it really surprised me at first. |
Palpatine didn't either. Yoda and Palpy were viewed as 'beyond' lightsabers. |
That I didn't realize. I don't think I've seen stats for him. |
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Grimace
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| ThrorII wrote: |
Palpatine didn't either. Yoda and Palpy were viewed as 'beyond' lightsabers. |
I really wish this would have been portrayed when the prequels came out. A battle with the Force, not with lightsabers, would have been so much more impactful. Leave the lightsabers to the young pups. |
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Mamatried
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Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1854
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| ThrorII wrote: | | Narmer wrote: | | What surprised me when I first read the Sourcebook 10 years ago was that Vader, Obi-Wan and Luke had the lightsaber skill but Yoda didn't. After thinking about it it made some sense but it really surprised me at first. |
Palpatine didn't either. Yoda and Palpy were viewed as 'beyond' lightsabers. |
I am not sure that is why.......especially older scources mostly "only" statted what we saw on screen.
before ROtS we never saw Yoda or Palpatine ever use or ignite a lightsaber, we did however see them use the force.
So to me the whole statting in star wars, and most "based on movie or TV" RPGs are stats to what we see, and only what we see.
We can argue that this is becuse of "canon confirmations" after all if Yoda never used a lightsaber in ROtS would that mean he as a jedi didn't know how to use it?
Like a samurai that is not using his sword on screen, he is statted without sword.....but hwo did he become a samurai, they use and cherish and hold in highest regard the symbol of their "role" the sword.
This is also what is being done in newer star wars rule sets, one such is the "ONLY what is seen on screen" we don't see a star destroyer depoly fighters, ergo it has no fighters and is statted with no fighters........even when it actually has.
theis is the reason why, not becuse anyone other the fans tried hard to "justify" the lack of stats, and the "he is beyons lightsabers" was the easiest thing, but it was and I am sure never meant like that when the game was first made, back then it was "only statting what we see"
this is why a master of masters has 7 powers, the onese seen used and the notation ( these are powers seen used, it can be assumed he has more powers" |
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ThrorII
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 12 Jul 2019
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamatried wrote: | | ThrorII wrote: | | Narmer wrote: | | What surprised me when I first read the Sourcebook 10 years ago was that Vader, Obi-Wan and Luke had the lightsaber skill but Yoda didn't. After thinking about it it made some sense but it really surprised me at first. |
Palpatine didn't either. Yoda and Palpy were viewed as 'beyond' lightsabers. |
I am not sure that is why.......especially older scources mostly "only" statted what we saw on screen.
before ROtS we never saw Yoda or Palpatine ever use or ignite a lightsaber, we did however see them use the force.
So to me the whole statting in star wars, and most "based on movie or TV" RPGs are stats to what we see, and only what we see.
We can argue that this is becuse of "canon confirmations" after all if Yoda never used a lightsaber in ROtS would that mean he as a jedi didn't know how to use it?
Like a samurai that is not using his sword on screen, he is statted without sword.....but hwo did he become a samurai, they use and cherish and hold in highest regard the symbol of their "role" the sword.
This is also what is being done in newer star wars rule sets, one such is the "ONLY what is seen on screen" we don't see a star destroyer depoly fighters, ergo it has no fighters and is statted with no fighters........even when it actually has.
theis is the reason why, not becuse anyone other the fans tried hard to "justify" the lack of stats, and the "he is beyons lightsabers" was the easiest thing, but it was and I am sure never meant like that when the game was first made, back then it was "only statting what we see"
this is why a master of masters has 7 powers, the onese seen used and the notation ( these are powers seen used, it can be assumed he has more powers" |
Actually, that concept was from Lucas when laying out ESB to the writers. Yoda was this 'top of the mountain guru', not kermit the frog on crack with a lightsaber. Also, Palpy's apparent distain in his voice for Luke's lightsaber as a 'Jedi Weapon' supported this.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| ThrorII wrote: | | Actually, that concept was from Lucas when laying out ESB to the writers. Yoda was this 'top of the mountain guru', not kermit the frog on crack with a lightsaber. Also, Palpy's apparent distain in his voice for Luke's lightsaber as a 'Jedi Weapon' supported this. |
I respectfully disagree with these interpretations.
When Luke didn't know Yoda was Yoda, he said that he was "looking for a great warrior." In reply, mischievous little imp Yoda quipped that wars don't make one great, but that was not a rejection of Yoda being a warrior. Yoda's emphasis is on 'not great' to start teaching the wisdom of the Jedi to Luke. "A Jedi uses his powers for knowledge and defense, never for attack." In 1980, I always imagined Yoda having once been a lightsaber master when he was younger, but due to the reality of Yoda being a muppet they would never have to show it now that he is an old Jedi teacher. The game stats for Yoda not having the lightsaber skill is meaningless unless a GM is going to have Yoda using his lightsaber in the game.
And the distain in Palpatine's voice was for Jedi, not the weapon.
| Quote: | VADER: [hands Luke's lightsaber to Palpatine] His lightsaber.
EMPEROR: Ah, yes, a Jedi's weapon, much like your father's. By now you must know that your father can never be turned from the dark side. So will it be with you...
EMPEROR: So be it, Jedi. |
Of course in the 80s the only Sith we knew of was Vader. We didn't know Palpatine was a Sith or what a Sith really was back then. Back then it could have been be that Vader used a lightsaber because he used to be a Jedi. But it is clear to me that Jedi is the real issue for Palpatine.
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Narmer
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Joined: 04 Feb 2020
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Location: Washington, the State not the City
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Where did Luke get the idea Yoda was a great warrior? Was it something Obi-wan said? Or was it something he assumed? I can't remember. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Narmer wrote: | | Where did Luke get the idea Yoda was a great warrior? Was it something Obi-wan said? Or was it something he assumed? I can't remember. |
Well in ANH Obi-Wan had told Luke that his father had been a Jedi Knight and a "cunning warrior." And Luke saw Obi-Wan take care of the cantina goons with lightning speed, and then later saw Obi-Wan fighting Vader with a lightsaber. It would not be an unreasonable presumption this Jedi Master he had been sent to would likewise be a great warrior. Sure he wasn't expecting a little green muppet, but Luke got a lesson about judging someone by their size when Yoda raised the X-Wing. Like I said, Yoda was an old muppet in the CT but I still imagined him as a cunning warrior when he was younger. I didn't know for sure if I would ever see it in the PT until Rick McCallum gave us a sneak peak trailer of AotC in Star Wars Celebration II.
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Narmer
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Location: Washington, the State not the City
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Narmer wrote: | | Where did Luke get the idea Yoda was a great warrior? Was it something Obi-wan said? Or was it something he assumed? I can't remember. |
Well in ANH Obi-Wan had told Luke that his father had been a Jedi Knight and a "cunning warrior." And Luke saw Obi-Wan take care of the cantina goons with lightning speed, and then later saw Obi-Wan fighting Vader with a lightsaber. It would not be an unreasonable presumption this Jedi Master he had been sent to would likewise be a great warrior. Sure he wasn't expecting a little green muppet, but Luke got a lesson about judging someone by their size when Yoda raised the X-Wing. Like I said, Yoda was an old muppet in the CT but I still imagined him as a cunning warrior when he was younger. I didn't know for sure if I would ever see it in the PT until Rick McCallum gave us a sneak peak trailer of AotC in Star Wars Celebration II. |
Yep, one does not expect a muppet when looking for a Jedi Master. |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I see things much like Mamatried and Whill.
I didn't actually give much thought to this issue back in 1980, but I suppose even then it would have been assumed that Yoda was once a great warrior (and used a lightsaber).
A whole other reason why (from a Doylist perspective) would be that at the ripe old age of 900, Yoda's lightsaber skills might have atrophied a bit. It's not like he was chopping firewood out there in the swamps of Dagobah.
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