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Savar
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 Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:28 pm Post subject: Givin Mathematics |
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| With the aptitude givin have with math could they do astrogation without a nav computer? |
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Telsij
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Though the ability to calculate hyperjumps w/o a nav computer is given to the Siniteen, I always thought the Givin should've also had a more developed mechanic for handling their aptitude with Math.
But in RAW, their species bonus improves their chances at proper calculation w/o a nav computer already, right? IIRC, the species bonus for Givin is +2D to math-related rolls, including astrogation. So, if the penalty for not using a nav computer is +30, they'd be able to cut into that penalty.
That said, because it's already a given, no pun intended, that Givin have the aptitude and history w/ math and the optional rule that they can solve "simple" equations automatically, you could further house-rule that ANY rolls to make calculations are easier — maybe something like two difficulty levels lower for them than for other species?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:04 am Post subject: |
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I may drop it one diff level.. Not two.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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I second Telsij. Navcomps don’t just do the math; they also hold all the route data. A Givin may be able to crunch the numbers exceedingly well, but they aren’t going to have all the route data memorized for the entire galaxy. At most, I’d allow them to act as a living Astrogation buffer like an Astromech, by allowing them to memorize the course data for a handful of routes.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | At most, I’d allow them to act as a living Astrogation buffer like an Astromech, by allowing them to memorize the course data for a handful of routes. |
That's reasonable.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I second Telsij. Navcomps don’t just do the math; they also hold all the route data. A Givin may be able to crunch the numbers exceedingly well, but they aren’t going to have all the route data memorized for the entire galaxy. |
Agreed. So as Telsij stated, RAW addresses this. There is a difficulty increase for any species astrogating without a navicomputer. That difficulty would apply for a Givin the same as it would anyone else. The Givin ability with mathematics applies to all astrogation rolls, so it would apply to rolls made with or without a navicomputer. Without a navicomputer, the Givin would have the same penalty anyone does but get a bonus to their roll. So astrogation would be a little less difficult for a Given without a navicomputer than most species, but if the OP is asking if they should have no penalty, I agree with RAW in saying no. The guideline for Given solving simple mathematical equations automatically clearly does not apply to astrogation for two reasons: (1) The Givin math ability specifically addresses astrogation with a different rule, and (2) Astrogation is not "simple" math.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | At most, I’d allow them to act as a living Astrogation buffer like an Astromech, by allowing them to memorize the course data for a handful of routes. |
That's reasonable. |
Maybe one route per D of Knowledge...
| Whill wrote: | | (1) The Givin math ability specifically addresses astrogation with a different rule, and (2) Astrogation is not "simple" math. |
This is one of those things where (as Telsij mentioned here) where the WEG rules "either gives you information that provides little in the way of useful game mechanics or provides you a +D bonus that does little to describe how the tool actually aids a task, etc."
It'd be more useful if WEG gave us an exact list of skills where the +2D bonus could be applied. As it stands, the main example I can think of apart from Astrogation would be any of the Engineering skills.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | At most, I’d allow them to act as a living Astrogation buffer like an Astromech, by allowing them to memorize the course data for a handful of routes. |
That's reasonable. |
Maybe one route per D of Knowledge... |
Maybe even one route per D of Planetary Systems.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | (1) The Givin math ability specifically addresses astrogation with a different rule, and (2) Astrogation is not "simple" math. |
This is one of those things where (as Telsij mentioned here) where the WEG rules "either gives you information that provides little in the way of useful game mechanics or provides you a +D bonus that does little to describe how the tool actually aids a task, etc."
It'd be more useful if WEG gave us an exact list of skills where the +2D bonus could be applied. As it stands, the main example I can think of apart from Astrogation would be any of the Engineering skills. |
That could be helpful, sure. I'm a math major so I have a good grip on what skills in what situations math ability could be applicable to, but most gamers are probably not that well-versed in mathematics.
Some other skills (besides astrogation and engineering) that mathematical aptitude could be advantageous in some circumstances are: business, scholar, value, bargain, gambling, computer and droid programming. Really several Knowledge or Perception skills could possibly benefit, but not that any of these cases would come up very often in most campaigns. Having a lot of math-based skill checks in the game sounds quite boring.
Beyond listing possible skills like I did above, most GMs would still need more specific criteria about possible uses of those skills to know when to apply the bonus, and that would be a game book getting wordy about math. The rule does say that it is a GM option, so the intention could have simply been that more mathematical GMs can come up with the rare ways for the ability could apply.
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Savar
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| Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Heh, cool discussion.
The brain storm that caused the question was looking up Instinctive Navigation Control.
Lol a Givin with Instinctive Navigation Control would get a +2D bonus per RAW. |
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Mamatried
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:59 am Post subject: |
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I think we do see Han Solo do some astrogation in ANH, he tells about how dangerous and difficult it is etc etc, then he flicks buttons on what must be the NAV computer.
We have seen him do similar since, and to me this indicates an ability he has to at lleast partially claculate hyperspace courses and at least aid or imporve on a nav computer, as well as fly well without one.
Han solo is human, so Givin with the math afinity should absolutely be able to do this, and maybe with some relative ease |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Maybe even one route per D of Planetary Systems. |
One route per D of Astrogation would probably be more applicable...
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Maybe even one route per D of Planetary Systems. |
One route per D of Astrogation would probably be more applicable... |
Well you said Knowledge so I was riffing off that. But yeah, astrogation makes sense. In my game, Astrogation is an advanced skill with planetary systems as one of the prerequisites. But I've never had Givin PC in my game, or a Givin doing astrogation IIRC.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I second Telsij. Navcomps don’t just do the math; they also hold all the route data. A Givin may be able to crunch the numbers exceedingly well, but they aren’t going to have all the route data memorized for the entire galaxy. At most, I’d allow them to act as a living Astrogation buffer like an Astromech, by allowing them to memorize the course data for a handful of routes. |
I could see that. Say they could hold data for 2 or so jumps.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | This is one of those things where (as Telsij mentioned here) where the WEG rules "either gives you information that provides little in the way of useful game mechanics or provides you a +D bonus that does little to describe how the tool actually aids a task, etc." |
Weg did kind of suck on some of the races write ups.. Such as Pho-phin-ieans, I can see maybe, how their 4 arms, would aid them in PHYSICAL tasks, to wher they can do 2 actions with no MAPS, but not two mental actions, but by their write up it doesn't matter what actions they are doing, the can do 2 with no MAPS cause of 4 arms..
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | It'd be more useful if WEG gave us an exact list of skills where the +2D bonus could be applied. As it stands, the main example I can think of apart from Astrogation would be any of the Engineering skills. |
Not sure all engineering would be modified by their math.. Maybe computer engineering (programming side)..
| Whill wrote: | | Maybe even one route per D of Planetary Systems. |
Now that i can see.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Not sure all engineering would be modified by their math.. Maybe computer engineering (programming side). |
Different kinds of engineering feats could be helped by mathematical aptitude. Now I admit my studies in math only taught me the kinds of math needed for engineering with only basic applications, so my understanding of engineering is only the very beginnings of it. I would think that in Star Wars most of the math work in engineering would be done by computers, perhaps with some AI or a droid, but I can still see mathematical aptitude assisting with checking the math work for any erroneous organic inputs to those programs. If you don't understand the math the computer is doing for you, you might not notice errors creeping into the work that can throw the math off. In a computer programming class I took in college, one of the first things we learned about was GIGO, an acronym standing for Garbage In, Garbage Out.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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True that...
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