Are character creation rules fair for Jedi characters?

[Mamatried]

I have given this some thought and I have found that by using the rules for character creation a "jedi" will always be at a serious disadvantage.

to me the force skills shouls be counted against the +/D skill dice and not the 18D Attributes and i think below is the best way to show it with the same character made in two ways.

the first is made by raw the second is made with using the 7D for force skills.

Name:
Template: Disgraced Dark Apprentice
Species:
Gender:
Background: You were discovered by one of Lord Vader's Inquisitors a few years ago
and through their harsh training and your desire to amass more power your eyes were
opened to the ways of the Dark Side of the Force.
But you were deemed a waste, not worthy the Empire or your master's time.
You barely escaped your former master's attempt to end your life and spent time on the run,
just like a pathetic Jedi.
But you'll show Lord Vader and his cronies.
You have the will and the untapped power to become a Dark Lord of the Sith,
and you'll show the Emperor himself the true strength of your power.
For now you're working with the Rebel Alliance, for the enemy of your enemy is your ally – for now.
Personality: You're bitter and angry at your rejection.
Frustration that you cannot use your powers as freely as you once did plagues you.
Patience does not come easily to you.
You watch the petty Rebels around you – their dedication and compassion.
Outwardly, you express disgust at your reluctant allies.
Yet when you are alone, you remember the almost forgotten days when peace was your friend.
A Quote: “Galactic Civil War or not, I shall have my revenge.”
Connection With Other Characters:
You may have worked with a Retired Imperial Captain or hired a Bounty Hunter
during your time in the Empire. You may have once hunted a Minor Jedi.

DEX: 3D+2
Blaster:
Brawling Parry:
Dodge:
Grenade:
Melee Combat:
Melee Parry:
Missile Weapons:
Lightsaber: 4D+2
Pick Pockets:

KNO: 2D
Alien Races:
Bureaucracy:
Cultures:
Intimidation:
Languages:
Planetary Systems:
Streewise:
Survival:
Willpower:

MEC: 2D
Astrogation:
Beast Riding:
Repulsolift Operation:
Space Transports:
Starship Gunnery:
Starship Piloting:

PER: 2D+2
Bargain:
Command:
Con:
Gambling:
Hide:
Search:
Sneak:

STR: 2D+2
Brawling:
Climbing/Jumping:
Lifting:
Stamina:
Swimming:

TEC: 2D
Computer Programming/Repair
Demolition:
First Aid:
Repulsorlift Repair:
Sensors:
Security:
Space Transport Repair:
Starship Weapons Repair:

ALT: 3D
CON: 3D
SEN: 3D

+6D force, +1D lightsaber

Alter: Injure/Kill
Control:
Sense:
Alter+Control:
Alter+Sense:
Control+Sense: Lightsaber Combat
Alter+Control+Sense:

Move:

FP:
CP:
DSP: 2

Equipment: Lightsaber (5D), Clothes or Dark Robes, 1000 Credits.


DEX: 3D+2
Blaster:
Brawling Parry:
Dodge:
Grenade:
Melee Combat:
Melee Parry:
Missile Weapons:
Lightsaber: 4D+2
Pick Pockets:

KNO: 3D
Alien Races:
Bureaucracy:
Cultures:
Intimidation:
Languages:
Planetary Systems:
Streewise:
Survival:
Willpower:

MEC: 2D+2
Astrogation:
Beast Riding:
Repulsolift Operation:
Space Transports:
Starship Gunnery:
Starship Piloting:

PER: 3D
Bargain:
Command:
Con:
Gambling:
Hide:
Search:
Sneak:

STR: 3D
Brawling:
Climbing/Jumping:
Lifting:
Stamina:
Swimming:

TEC: 2D+2
Computer Programming/Repair
Demolition:
First Aid:
Repulsorlift Repair:
Sensors:
Security:
Space Transport Repair:
Starship Weapons Repair:

ALT: 2D
CON: 2D
SEN: 2D

+3D used for 1D to alt, con and sen, +3D used to raise these
+1D lightsaber

Alter: Injure/Kill
Control:
Sense:
Alter+Control:
Alter+Sense:
Control+Sense: Lightsaber Combat
Alter+Control+Sense:

Move:

FP:
CP:
DSP: 2

Equipment: Lightsaber (5D), Clothes or Dark Robes, 1000 Credits.


I did not add force powers on any of these, as they would too be indentical.

I would argue that the below character is significantly "better" than the above one, and that the 3D in attributes and thus skill default can not be overcome in any worth while way.

now if I now add a non force user with the same attributes as the 18D here we see hw they outperform any force character for a long long time.

We also have to take into account tranier vs no trainer and the rules for this, with less cost of powers with a teacher and less time taken to learn.

so a non force user DEX: 3D+2
Blaster: 5D+2
Brawling Parry:
Dodge: 4D+2
Grenade:
Melee Combat:
Melee Parry:
Missile Weapons:
Lightsaber:
Pick Pockets:

KNO: 3D
Alien Races:
Bureaucracy:
Cultures:
Intimidation:
Languages:
Planetary Systems:
Streewise:
Survival:
Willpower:

MEC: 2D+2
Astrogation:
Beast Riding:
Repulsolift Operation:
Space Transports: 3D+2
Starship Gunnery:
Starship Piloting:

PER: 3D
Bargain:
Command:
Con:
Gambling:
Hide:
Search:
Sneak:

STR: 3D
Brawling: 4D
Climbing/Jumping:
Lifting:
Stamina: 5D
Swimming:

TEC: 2D+2
Computer Programming/Repair
Demolition:
First Aid:
Repulsorlift Repair:
Sensors:
Security:
Space Transport Repair:
Starship Weapons Repair:

now if this character is force sensitive a choice that is actually free at creation he has 2 force points, the same as a jedi, he does not have the force skills trained yet, but he outskills the jedi even after he simply focus his character progression to only further his force skills.

So to me it makes much more sense to let the force skills be allocated from the +7D skill dice than from the Attributes.

we done't see any indication that just becuse obi wan is force senitive is is more frail or slower or even "dumber" than a non force sensitive.

[Bren]

[Mamatried]

[Bren]

[garhkal]

IMO< yes they are fair. Cause once that Jedi gets UP In his D code, he can often dominate things..
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Naaman]

I think the RAW is not anywhere near "fair."

First, if we assume that the "rules" somehow "require" or "assume" that a the GM will deliberately delay the introduction of a master into the story so as to keep the Jedi player down (so-to-speak) until the player "earns" the right for his character to have a teacher, then starting them off weaker is actually quite lame.

You end up with a setting-appropriate (in fact, setting-specific) character concept that does not come to fruition because "the rules."

In fact, a great story hook might be that a powerful force sensitive detects the young PC headed down the wrong path and basically forces his way into the PC's life in order to guide him down the right path ("Either train under me, or I must remove the threat you present to the galaxy at large" or some such).

Second, it costs CPs to raise force skills just like it does to raise regular skills, therefore, a Jedi who is strong in the force will be weak in other things. It's just that simple. In many ways, the Jedi may have a force power (which costs character points to have enough skill to use effectively) that gives them an "ability" that another character can simulate just by having a piece of equipment that can be bought/replaced, etc, and which does not suffer MAPs. For example, a character can have an optical device (such as a microscope or binoculars) while the Jedi has magnify senses. But the Jedi actually had to invest CPs into the ability, while another character just gains the benefits of the device for free.

(Yes, I know, the Jedi can buy binoculars, too, but that just goes to show: a force power isn't necessarily "better" than a piece of equipment in terms of how it's effects are expressed in actual game play: that is, roll some [more] dice to determine an outcome).

Third:
Dark Side points. Jedi are heavily restricted on what they can do without risking the loss of their character. It costs a force point to atone for a dark side point, and as soon as you get your second dark side point, you are at risk of losing your character.

After decades of experience with this game/system, my opinion is that either of these rules changes would be appropriate:

1) force sensitive characters get all three force skills for free at character creation (in exchange for the dark side point rules mentioned above).

2) force sensitive characters choose one force skill and they get that for free, and, if they want a teacher right away in order to learn the others, their background must include the mentor (even if that means the mentor functions as somewhat of a restraining device, as suggested above).

[Bren]

[garhkal]

[Bren]

[Mamatried]

Any NPC with 3D or aboove in a force skill can according to the rules teach, and a teacher that is not a master but do have 3-4-5D in the skills will be less rare than the jedi masters.

Secondly depending on timeline and if that is as the "default" in the rebellion era, then both vader and the old man actually eased down a lot on their jedi hunting, focusing on the rebels.

so to get some form of teacher is not all that much, even a starter character like a young jedi who have used his 7D to raise his force skills to 3D can teach, however he can not teach the skill Dice to higer than 2D for the student, and he may only teach any power he knows.

so no, getting a teacher is not all that, and not al all thart rare, most forceusers in most of the modules is at least at 3D in one or more if the force skills and can thus teach and be a teacher

[Naaman]

[Bren]

[Naaman]

I didn't mean that EACH force skill should start at 3D. Only that I'm fine with the first 1D in each skill being free. They have to pay their way beyond 1D.

[garhkal]

But why should the first d, for jedi characters be free? Essentially that's giving them 21d, compared to everyone else getting 18d.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Bren]