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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:41 pm Post subject: Stun Damage Optional Rule |
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A while back, I suggested an alternate version for Stun Damage. I've had some additional thoughts on it, and so, to avoid hijacking Whill's topic, I'm giving it its own topic. So, here we go...
My basic premise is that, rather than the RAW's version of Stun Damage ("treat any result more serious than Stunned as Unconscious for 2D minutes"), treat Stun damage like Ionization Damage for organic beings.
So, if a weapon is set on Stun, roll damage on the following chart:Stun Damage > Strength / Stamina Roll = Effect
0-3 = 1 Stun
4-8 = 2 Stuns
9-12 = 3 Stuns
13-16 = 4 Stuns
17-20 = 5 Stuns
21-24 = 6 Stuns
25-28 = 7 Stuns
29-32 = 8 Stuns
33+ = One additional Stun for every 4 points of Damage
Each Stun inflicts a temporary -1D penalty to all actions, which rolls off at a rate of 1D per round (subject to the "affecting" rule listed on pg. 97 of the 2R&E Rulebook).
If a character's total "affecting" Stun Dice reduces their Strength to 0D, the character is Unconscious for 1D minutes, +1D minutes for every D by which the total Stun dice exceeds their Strength.Example: Thannik is hit by a Stun blast that brings his total "affecting" dice to 6D, effectively reducing his Strength of 3D+2 to -2D+1. He is knocked Unconscious for 3D minutes (1D, plus 1D for every D by which his total Strength dice was exceeded).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Related Rule: Brawling Damage defaults to Stun, but on a confirmed Wild Dice result, inflicts Normal Damage instead.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. It seems to reduce the chance folks get stunned out cold so easily, but still gives a chance for it.
Though what do you mean by 'confirmed wild die'??
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Interesting. It seems to reduce the chance folks get stunned out cold so easily, but still gives a chance for it.
Though what do you mean by 'confirmed wild die'?? |
People dying from getting punched does happen on occasion, so I wanted to represent the possibility here.
Basically, say a Wookiee with 5D Strength punches an NPC with 2D Strength. If the Wookiee rolls any 6's, or the NPC rolls any 1's on either of their Strength rolls, roll that D again. If it comes up with the same result (sequential 6's or 1's), then the attacker inflicts Normal Damage instead of Stun, with the potential for injury or death rather than simply getting knocked senseless.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Basically, say a Wookiee with 5D Strength punches an NPC with 2D Strength. If the Wookiee rolls any 6's, or the NPC rolls any 1's on either of their Strength rolls, roll that D again. If it comes up with the same result (sequential 6's or 1's), then the attacker inflicts Normal Damage instead of Stun, with the potential for injury or death rather than simply getting knocked senseless. |
I'm not sure I follow.
So the Wookiee's player rolls 5 dice and for every one of those 5 dice that gets a six, the player rolls an additional dice and if any one of the additional dices come up as a 6, the 5D damage done by the Wookiee is considered normal damage.
And the player of the NPC (usually the GM) rolls 2 dice and if either of those dice come up a one, the GM then rolls an additional dice for each 1 that is rolled and if any of additional die comes up as a 1, the 5D damage is considered normal damage.
Is that what you meant or did I misunderstand? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Is that what you meant or did I misunderstand? |
That's what I meant. The idea is to represent the increased likelihood of stronger characters inflicting lasting harm.
If you see a complication and have an alternative to suggest, however, I'm all ears.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | The idea is to represent the increased likelihood of stronger characters inflicting lasting harm. |
Yeah it does that all right.
The obvious complication is that the extra die rolls for confirmation would be a bit cumbersome.
Another complication is that good rolls (lots of sixes and/or repeated sixes on the wild die) have a higher probability of inflicting normal damage and so does using a Force Point. But the player may not want to inflict normal, potentially fatal damage. Yet the system now works against the player's intent.
A less obvious complication is that the probability of the target getting one or more 1's increases with the target's strength. This has the curious effect of making the probability that the Wookiee inflicts normal damage against another Wookiee higher than is the probability he inflicts normal damage against the human, since 5D gives a lot more opportunities to roll one or more 1's than does 2D. You probably want to fix that. *
There are two things to consider. First is the notion that stronger characters should be more likely to inflict normal damage, i.e. lasting harm. Second is how likely (in general) it should be that a punch inflicts lasting harm.
If we keep the overall probability of punches inflicting normal (and potentially fatal) damage low, say less than 1 blow in 6, then we can fix the third of the three complications.
Let's look at the wild die roll for the defender. If the defender rolls a 1 on the wild die for a soak roll then there is a chance that the damage inflicted was normal i.e. possibly fatal damage. To confirm, look at the existing damage roll of the attacker. If any of the attacker's damage dice came up a 6, the damage is normal damage.
* I know that the Wookiee#2 is far more likely to soak against a 5D damage roll than will the STR 2D NPC. But that only makes the ratio of normal hits vs. stun hits even higher in Wookiee vs. Wookiee than it is in Wookiee vs Human. |
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Leona Makk
Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Feb 2018
Posts: 91
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | Interesting. It seems to reduce the chance folks get stunned out cold so easily, but still gives a chance for it.
Though what do you mean by 'confirmed wild die'?? |
People dying from getting punched does happen on occasion, so I wanted to represent the possibility here.
Basically, say a Wookiee with 5D Strength punches an NPC with 2D Strength. If the Wookiee rolls any 6's, or the NPC rolls any 1's on either of their Strength rolls, roll that D again. If it comes up with the same result (sequential 6's or 1's), then the attacker inflicts Normal Damage instead of Stun, with the potential for injury or death rather than simply getting knocked senseless. |
*Wookie looks at friends with a severed arm in each hand....SHRUGS* |
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Leona Makk
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Posts: 91
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Stun Damage Optional Rule |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | A while back, I suggested an alternate version for Stun Damage. I've had some additional thoughts on it, and so, to avoid hijacking Whill's topic, I'm giving it its own topic. So, here we go...
My basic premise is that, rather than the RAW's version of Stun Damage ("treat any result more serious than Stunned as Unconscious for 2D minutes"), treat Stun damage like Ionization Damage for organic beings.
So, if a weapon is set on Stun, roll damage on the following chart:Stun Damage > Strength / Stamina Roll = Effect
0-3 = 1 Stun
4-8 = 2 Stuns
9-12 = 3 Stuns
13-16 = 4 Stuns
17-20 = 5 Stuns
21-24 = 6 Stuns
25-28 = 7 Stuns
29-32 = 8 Stuns
33+ = One additional Stun for every 4 points of Damage
Each Stun inflicts a temporary -1D penalty to all actions, which rolls off at a rate of 1D per round (subject to the "affecting" rule listed on pg. 97 of the 2R&E Rulebook).
If a character's total "affecting" Stun Dice reduces their Strength to 0D, the character is Unconscious for 1D minutes, +1D minutes for every D by which the total Stun dice exceeds their Strength.Example: Thannik is hit by a Stun blast that brings his total "affecting" dice to 6D, effectively reducing his Strength of 3D+2 to -2D+1. He is knocked Unconscious for 3D minutes (1D, plus 1D for every D by which his total Strength dice was exceeded). |
Interesting....perhaps its worth doing a little rewrite on the Force Power "Resist Stun." Let me think..... |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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It certainly should be re-wrote, if Stun itself is re-wrote..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | The obvious complication is that the extra die rolls for confirmation would be a bit cumbersome. |
Yes, but no more so than any other roll to confirm a Wild Dice result.
| Quote: | | Yet the system now works against the player's intent. |
Thus the origin of the phrase "I didn't mean to hit him so hard."
| Quote: | | A less obvious complication is that the probability of the target getting one or more 1's increases with the target's strength. |
That's a fair point. I suppose I could just make it only happen on a Wild Dice failure by the attacker.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Stun Damage Optional Rule |
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| Leona Makk wrote: | | Interesting....perhaps its worth doing a little rewrite on the Force Power "Resist Stun." Let me think..... |
Resist Stun always seemed somewhat silly to me. Personally, I'd rather just fold it into an expanded version of Absorb/Dissipate that allows the user to absorb the energy from physical attacks as well. That would also get rid of Lesser Force Shield, too.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Quote: | | Yet the system now works against the player's intent. |
Thus the origin of the phrase "I didn't mean to hit him so hard." |
Yeah I get that. That is, after all, how the real world actually works sometimes. And in systems that emulate that like Runequest where critical hits do extra damage (and occur randomly) that makes complete sense to me.
The awkward part in SWD6 is that rolling higher usually means (or is supposed to mean) a better outcome than a lower roll and this will sometimes invert the usual result so that a higher roll ends up in outcome that is unwanted...possibly very unwanted. That's a problem, especially for some players some of the time. Reasonable people may disagree on how much of a drawback that is. And, to be fair, the RAW treats all brawling damage as normal or killing damage, so what you are doing already makes it less likely that a character will punch someone to death either inadvertently or intentionally.
Since I don't want to include fluke punches accidently killing people, what I'm tempted to do is tweak your stun table so that stun damage that exceeds unconsciousness turns into actual damage.
I like using Stamina instead of STR for resisting brawling damage. So I’ll do that. I keep your table as is.
CRMcNeil Stun Damage Table
If # Stuns = the characters dice in Stamina the character is unconscious for 2D minutes. (This is the RAW rule for Stun damage results with the minor change of using Stamina instead of STR for resistance).
Every Stun result in excess of the character’s dice in Stamina translates to one level of wounding. So
Stun Damage > Stamina Dice = Effect
1 Stun = Wounded
2 Stun = Wounded x 2
3 Stun = Incapacitated
4 Stun = Morally Wounded
5 Stun = Killed
A typical starting PC with a STR and Stamina = 3D, will be knocked unconscious if they take 3 or more Stun results, i.e. if damage exceeds their resistance roll by 9-12. If that were normal damage that result would incapacitate the character, so unconsciousness seems a reasonable lesser outcome.
Let's look at how much damage it takes to injure that Stamina 3D character. I'll put it in table form to make it easier to analyze.
Stun Damage > Stamina Roll = Effect
0-3 = 1 Stun
4-8 = 2 Stuns
9-12 = 3 Stuns; character is unconscious for 2D minutes.
13-16 = 4 Stuns; as above plus character is Wounded.
17-20 = 5 Stuns; as above plus character is Wounded x2.
21-24 = 6 Stuns; as above plus character is Incapacitated.
25-28 = 7 Stuns; as above plus character is Mortally Wounded.
29-32 = 8 Stuns; Killed.
What I like about this.
(1) It makes brawling more like the typical Western TV show bar brawl where people usually get knocked out, not permanently injured.
(2) It allows brawling to do some damage, especially for characters, like Wookiees, who do a lot dice in damage.
(3) It avoids characters being killed in a bar fight by accident due to an unlucky punch. While this is an entirely reasonable result of punching people in the face in the real world, I don’t want that in my Star Wars.
(4) Repeatedly hitting or kicking someone once they are down will eventually kill the target.
One reason I like (4) is that it aligns the brawling damage system with what we frequently see in pulp or action fiction. We’ve all seen action movies where the bad guys are trying to beat some information out of someone. The target passes out, but the sadistic thug wants to keep hitting the target. Someone says, “stop it or you’ll kill him.” The bad guys stop. Usually they go away. Time passes. If the target is the hero, he uses the time to recover and come up with a plan to escape. If the target is an NPC victim, the heroes use time to come to the rescue.
And that's what I want. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | The awkward part in SWD6 is that rolling higher usually means (or is supposed to mean) a better outcome than a lower roll and this will sometimes invert the usual result so that a higher roll ends up in outcome that is unwanted...possibly very unwanted. |
I addressed that above, by saying it would only occur on a Wild Dice failure by the attacker. This means that the attacker would have to roll a 1 on his Damage roll, roll to confirm it, and still have a high enough damage total on his remaining Damage dice that he inflicted enough normal damage to wound or kill someone.
| Quote: | | I like using Stamina instead of STR for resisting brawling damage. So I’ll do that. |
I like the idea of inverting the D6 Space Strength Damage rule, so that a character may resist Damage with either his Strength dice or 1/2 his Stamina dice (converted to pips, divide in half rounded up, then convert back to dice).
| Quote: | | Every Stun result in excess of the character’s dice in Stamina translates to one level of wounding. |
That works, too. I vaguely recall having suggested something similar at some point...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Leona Makk
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Posts: 91
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Stun Damage Optional Rule |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Leona Makk wrote: | | Interesting....perhaps its worth doing a little rewrite on the Force Power "Resist Stun." Let me think..... |
Resist Stun always seemed somewhat silly to me. Personally, I'd rather just fold it into an expanded version of Absorb/Dissipate that allows the user to absorb the energy from physical attacks as well. That would also get rid of Lesser Force Shield, too. |
Resist Stun has always been useless. One minute to activate? That is a lot of preparing in order to get shot or beat up. Also, Lesser Force Shield isn't a huge bonus for the MAP. (not to be negative)
Absorb kinetic energy as well, eh?
Would you rewrite Absorb/Dissipate to allow Control to replace Strength for damage resistance? The Iron Toad Skin Martial Arts fans would approve, but it would need something to prevent it from being too overpowered. Is having to declare a power use for each attack enough? |
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