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Naaman
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ReverendKeaton wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | I feel like there is a sense that the empire is barbaric or overtly brutal, but I do not get that sense at all from watching the films. Evil? Yes. But the empire is "lawful evil" not "chaotic evil."
I suspect that even if people are sentenced to death unjustly, that there is still some kind of administrative process that Palpatine would enforce.
Furthermore, if the empire didn't enforce civilized laws upon its citizens, then the emtire society would devolve into chaos/anarchy. So something like murder is unqustionably illegal in the empire, and would be investigated by whatever authorities were responsible for law enforcement in the juridiction.
The distinction may be semantical, but I would say the the "empire" does not "officially" murder anyone, but rather carries out (unjust) executions according to imperial law, even if they have to fabricate the charges ("the Jedi are taking over!!!!"). |
I get the feeling that good and evil are a matter of perspective in the SW universe. What some people consider evil is considered the normal good and vice versa. It is no different than certain events in the world today where one country claims to be the liberator and frees a country only to set up a brutal regime in its place. I tend to think most citizens were not treated horribly under the Empire or there would have been more than just the uprisings that were scattered across the galaxy.
But then after the destruction of Alderaan I can see worlds becoming fearful. Did Alderaan get destroyed by a super weapon? Were they developing their own super weapon? Propaganda is a mighty thing when used correctly to sway the minds of the people.
I agree with your thought that the Empire doesn't murder anyone. They use the law to justly execute it in an expeditious way. And if there are casualties they should have not been on the wrong side of the law. |
I would tend to disagree that the definition of evil depends on a "point of view." Now, I do agree that individuals will occupy varying positions on the spectrum when it comes to how black and white they view the universe and any kind of universal (or not) morality.
However, I think that evil in SW is very clearly defined, and the struggle of definitive good versus definitive evil is the very crux of the SW story. However, the dark side (which essentially personifies "evil" or "temptation") is seductive, and can make what is evil appear to be good, if only an individual will compromise here and there (incrementally) for the "greater good."
In other words, the first step on the path toward pure evil is to accept the fallacy that the ends justify the means. |
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Urban Spaceman
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Joined: 13 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: |
In other words, the first step on the path toward pure evil is to accept the fallacy that the ends justify the means. |
So what you are saying is that once someone starts down a dark path, then it might dominate their destiny. Possibly forever. 
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| Urban Spaceman wrote: | | Naaman wrote: |
In other words, the first step on the path toward pure evil is to accept the fallacy that the ends justify the means. |
So what you are saying is that once someone starts down a dark path, then it might dominate their destiny. Possibly forever. |
Considering that a little green imp with a penchant for occasionally trolling his students was the one who came up with that particular idea, one has to wonder about the veracity of that concept. 
Then again, while Yoda was a troll sometimes, he was never an outright liar.
But yeah, the SWU has, for the most part, always been a rather black-and-white universe, though one can see the grey in it without too much trouble. And the grey becomes even more visible when you consider that many Rebels were former Imperials who decided to defect when they decided that the Empire's tyranny was just as bad as the anarchy they were trying to defeat by joining the Empire in the first place.
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deano
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Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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I've been running an Imperial campaign for 17 missions to date. It's going to be a story that will lead to defecting and the players all know that as it was our starting end game. The story is focused on what leads people to rebellion. I'm generally of the opinion that most people in Imperial service are not inherently evil and that the new order has a well oiled propaganda machine that paints history and the Empire's actions in a certain point of view. The Saga edition of Galaxy at War has a good section on running Imperial campaigns and provides some useful pointers.
As for missions, they have mostly been focused on dealing with criminal cartels, pirates, some humanitarian aid and training as a squad in an Imperial Army Special Missions Company. There is an appointed leader and there's some squad hierarchy, but I generally find someone will naturally take a leadership role in most games. It can be problematic on very rare occasions, but I find that we can work through the issues when they arise. Players' experience and attitudes can have a big impact on how this works.
At the start of the campaign, each player needed to think about the reasons why they might defect to aid with making it happen. I'm trying to craft a plot that leads to defection through attrition rather than a blunt incident, but I'll have to see how it goes. In recent months I've started seeding galactic events that start to change some of the tone campaign through holonet news feeds, e.g. Ghorman Massacre. I've also introduced some NPC's of more questionable morals, but again not necessarily overtly evil.
I've got plenty of material if you'd be interested in seeing it.
Deano
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, Deano, feel free to post your material. I, for one, would like to see it and I'm sure others here would too.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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I'd also like to see what you've come up with!
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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If you're interested, I used the concept of Political Gains Missions by Army Special Missions troops as part of the reason for CompForce forming its own special missions units. If you read between the lines, Political Gains Missions are essentially terrorist attacks on civilian targets in order to get neutral worlds to ask for Imperial assistance (and ultimately submit themselves to Imperial control) without realizing that the Empire were the ones committing the terrorist attacks in the first place.
In my expansion of COMPNOR project, I wrote some fluff to the effect that several Special Missions units had deliberately blown their own missions rather than be the very terrorists many of them had originally signed up to fight. Sending your team on just such a mission to attack civilian targets might work well as a breaking point, as well as making a long-term enemy out of COMPNOR and the ISB...
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | If you're interested, I used the concept of Political Gains Missions by Army Special Missions troops as part of the reason for CompForce forming its own special missions units. If you read between the lines, Political Gains Missions are essentially terrorist attacks on civilian targets in order to get neutral worlds to ask for Imperial assistance (and ultimately submit themselves to Imperial control) without realizing that the Empire were the ones committing the terrorist attacks in the first place.
In my expansion of COMPNOR project, I wrote some fluff to the effect that several Special Missions units had deliberately blown their own missions rather than be the very terrorists many of them had originally signed up to fight. Sending your team on just such a mission to attack civilian targets might work well as a breaking point, as well as making a long-term enemy out of COMPNOR and the ISB... |
Damn, former COMPNORites defecting to the Rebellion??? That's like Nazi SS guys (some of the most fanatical Nazis) defecting to the Allies. (I don't know of any real life examples of SS guys defecting to the Allies during WWII, but it would be interesting to read about if it did actually happen.) But yeah, that wrinkle would make for some amazing stories in the SWU. Imagine having to convince the Rebels you're really on their side after being part of COMPNOR ("No, really, guys! We may have been part of an outfit that performed grisly atrocities on innumerable planets all over the galaxy, but we're honest about defecting! This really isn't a trick!") while at the same time trying to avoid COMPNOR making an example of you ("No mercy for traitors! The only way people leave COMPNOR is feet-first!").
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Zarn
Force Spirit
Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 698
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Closest you get is likely Otto Skorzeny. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | Damn, former COMPNORites defecting to the Rebellion??? |
It's more complicated than that. While the connection is never stated outright, the concept of Political Gains Operations (ImpSB, pg. 86) dovetails with the description of the Coalition for Improvements' Redesign Branch (ImpSB, pgs. 20-21), and further notes that Imperial Army Special Missions has been pressed into service performing PGOs.
As part of the write-up for CompForce's Contingency Branch (the CompForce equivalent of Imperial Army Special Missions), I played on the general sense of reluctance implied by Special Missions units being "pressed into service" for the PGOs, effectively becoming the very terrorists many of the Special Missions had signed up to fight in the first place. I also played up that Special Missions' distaste for the PGOs had led to several Special Missions units deliberately sabotaging their own missions when deployed on PGOs, which is part of what led CompForce to form their own special forces units.
So what would happen here is that deano's group of Special Missions troopers would get assigned a PGO at the behest of COMPNOR's Redesign Branch, with the mission requirement of hitting soft civilian targets on a neutral world, and masquerading as an Alliance-allied terrorist group, all to drive that world into the arms of the Empire. Something like that could prove the tipping point that drives this group of potential defectors over the edge into actually defecting, but in so doing, earn them the ire of COMPNOR for screwing up the operation.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarn wrote: | | Closest you get is likely Otto Skorzeny. |
Skorzeny's an interesting one. Probably the closest equivalent in the SWU is General Madine, except that Skorzeny pretty much stuck with the Nazis to the end...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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griff
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Joined: 16 Jan 2014
Posts: 507
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Check out YouTube channel DarkDocs, the battle for Castle Itter, let me put it this way
Marvel Avengers "greatest team up ever"
Infinity War "hold my beer"
Battle for castle Itter "*itch please, we had you all beat back in 1945"
(Seriously how is this never been made into a moive)
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Last edited by griff on Sat May 04, 2019 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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deano
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Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 69
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
So what would happen here is that deano's group of Special Missions troopers would get assigned a PGO at the behest of COMPNOR's Redesign Branch, with the mission requirement of hitting soft civilian targets on a neutral world, and masquerading as an Alliance-allied terrorist group, all to drive that world into the arms of the Empire. Something like that could prove the tipping point that drives this group of potential defectors over the edge into actually defecting, but in so doing, earn them the ire of COMPNOR for screwing up the operation. |
Definitely an option, thanks
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deano
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DB 2.0
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Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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One Imperial campaign I was involved with the characters where stuck in some back water, the local economy trickled out some War Goods and mostly 2nd & 3rd line stuff and Consumer Goods.
Imperial Authorities weren't too heavy handed, the local problem was with the Crime Syndicates, smugglers, Pirates, Gangsters and such. the characters where the forces of order protecting the people from the forces of criminality. the Empire where not the good guys but they stood between the people and the bad guys. there where Evil Imperials running around, but the big problem was the Criminals. |
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