Rule of Two, and why it makes no sense.

[Mamatried]

I will argue that the "rule of two" as we think of it can not logically exist.

Now there can only be a master and and an apprentice at any time, but is this logical?

I have disregarded the "lost tribe of the sith" in this, focusing more on the jedi vs sith conflict as we see it.

We know that there are artifats out there that can litteraly turn people to the dark side, the mask of lord momin is one such thing, and i would argue the murr talisman is in the same realm.

Now knowing that there are dark side nexuses, shrines and the like out there, nothing logically prevents any force sensitive in finding these studying these, adopting the sith teachings and taking an apprentice, thus becomming a master with an apprentice regardless of the existance of Palpatine and Vader, or any other.

Now just becuse the title was never used, i would argue that when savage opress found his brother maul and became his apprentice there was in fact two master's and two apprentices in the galaxy at the same time, and those were the only ones known.

In both canon(new) and legends comics and books we have holocrons out there, rebels showed us no less than two, jacosta nu hid the jedi archives more or less in a cave, and we know there are sith artifacts out there.

I think the rule of two is meant so that there will be no organized sith order, and that any sith out there will be in a Master and Apprentice relation, even if this allows for more than one sith lord at the time.

I also think the rule is meant for the sith masters when plural is to stay appart, maybe even make efforts to do so, in order to not be found by the jedi and to be able to play behind the scenes to further sith influence.

I think personally Palpatine never adhered to this rue, and was more in the "one sith" line.


So guys do any of you think the rule of two makes sense, or actually existed in the way we think?

[Pel]

The Rule of Two is pretty much shredded now. I think it maybe started out that way to keep a low profile after the Sith were nearly eradicated, but in true sneaky Sith fashion, they violated the rule after a while and let the Jedi believe it was still in effect.

Granted a lot of our proof is apochryphal now, but it wouldn't be the first or last time the Sith fed their Jedi cousins disinformation.
_________________
Aha!

[Mamatried]

good point.
Disinformation......never thought of that.


I was thinking, lets say under palpatine.
we had him and vader being the sith.
hOwever my point is even if they did (try) to hold to the rule of two
there would be no logical reason why no other force sensitive out there should not adopt the sith philosophy if exposed to a holocron or something similar

So I can see Palpy and vader big the lord of the sith and the apprentisce, and I can see force sensitive mr x to study teachings and become the lord of the sith and tk an apprentice.........now for TWO sith lords and two apprentices....

Etc etc etc....I see no reason to why not 20, 100, 25 000 so to speak meaning as long as there are artifacts and force nexuses and the like out there then there will be darksiders....I doubt it is simply "impossible" for them to call them selves sith and follow the tachings, take a apprentice and thus be the second, third, fourth sith lord in the galaxy at the same time.

I can not in any way my self see the rule of two as even possible given the amount of force "stuff" in the galaxy and how some artifacts ac even posess people etc

[Dredwulf60]

Also, what is a 'Sith' to you?

You can be a dark side force user without being a sith, just as you can be a light side force user and not be a jedi.

I always thought of the Sith as a very specific cult, analogous to witchcraft in the dark ages.

If that particular cult was almost wiped out they might have tried to keep to just pairs. Like small cells, not even knowing about others...or thinking that others aren't 'True' Sith.

[Mamatried]

[Sutehp]

Don't forget the example of the Inquisitorus. Sidious and Vader were the only two Sith of the Galactic Empire, but they weren't above turning Old Republic Jedi and/or recruiting Darksiders to their cause. Sidious and Vader both knew well enough to not train the Inquisitors in Sith teachings for fear that the Inquisitors would usurp the the two of them. Hell, when Ahsoka Tano took on both Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister, she curbstomped both of them at once. In hindsight, this shouldn't be a surprise since she was a formally trained Jedi Knight when she left the Jedi Order and had way more training as well as real combat experience from the Clone Wars.

There's far more to being a Sith than just being a darksider in the employ of the Emperor.
_________________
Sutehp's RPG Goodies
Only some of it is for D6 Star Wars.
Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them.

[Whill]

[Zarn]

Then, there's cults like the Krath - who arguably are Sith, as they've been trained by a Sith (well, ghost Sith - 30% less DSPs), and who together with Exar Kun ended up founding the Brotherhood of the Sith.

Or even the Sorcerers of Tund, who started out as Sith sorcerers but ended up being a legged snail in a costume.

I think there's a case for it being that as the race Sith got watered out, you would arguably be a Sith if you said you were a Sith, and you followed the Qotsisajak to the best of your ability.

[MrNexx]

See, I tend to interpret it as simply "All Masters have one apprentice. Not two, not zero. Three is right out."

How do you become a Master? You free yourself from your Master, and take an apprentice. Freeing MIGHT involve killing your master. It might involve your master saying "You're free, I have no more to teach you." Or it might involve some machinations on either of your parts. But, once you are a master, you should find an apprentice. And, if you find a new apprentice who is more worthy... well, get rid of your old apprentice.
_________________
"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/

[CRMcNeill]

Sith Master: "The Rule of Fi-"

Sith Apprentice: "Two, sir!"

Sith Master: "-Two!"
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[CRMcNeill]

[Pel]

[TauntaunScout]

I thought it was really not a rule, it's a guideline.

The idea the way George Lucas described it, is that there can't be more than two (for long) because of darksiders being into ambitious backstabbing.

The apprentices might decide they're due for a promotion and gang up on their master and kill him, so they can each move up a rung. Or one of the apprentices will do well enough to attract the jealousy of the other apprentice leading to a fatal confrontation or act of sabotage. The master, for his own reasons (such as preemptively avoiding scenario # 1) may intentionally play his students off of each other, eliminating one of them.

[Darklighter79]

I got a little confused about the time period when this rule of two (RoT) was established and some key points in Sith's history.

1) TPM - "The Sith have been extinct for a millennium"
2) EU says RoT was established after this extiction by lone Sith survivor Darth Bane after the last war with Jedi

How then Yoda and Mace knew about RoT as it was established in a period when Sith were considered destroyed?

Maybe Windu with his "The oppression of the Sith will never return" was referring to the RoT which existed more 1000 yrs ago?

And:

[ThrorII]

I think the INTENTION of the RoT as stated in the PT was at face value: There are only two Sith (Apprentice and Master), and they have been Rule of Two-ing it for a millennium. An Apprentice only becomes the Master when the master dies (or is killed). The Master may retain the Apprentice until the apprentice kills the Master, or the Master may have a new apprentice kill the old one.

However, like many here, I feel that a literal RoT is absurd. It only takes one accident to wipe the Sith out for good. A hyperspace mishap and *Boom* no more Sith in the Galaxy.

I also interpret it like Mamatried: There may be many Sith lords, all adhering to the RoT (more or less) and all independent and ignorant of the others. The RoT doesn't mean 2 Sith galaxy-wide, it just means there is no more large "Sith Empire" or "Sith Group", and they are all disbursed secretly throughout the galaxy. That way they don't backstab eachother (often).
_________________
"The internet is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural." - Sheev Zuckerberg