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Whill
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 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Vader sometimes had the title of "Dark Lord of the Sith" in the 70s. We didn't know what the Sith meant in the 70s, but I thought Admiral Motti's line about Vader's "sad devotion to that ancient religion" referred to that Sith title because Vader had been described by Obi-Wan as having betrayed the Jedi so wouldn't still be devoted to their religion anymore. |
None of us knew what the Sith was but Tarkin said (or nearly said) "The Jedi are all but extinct: you my friend are all that remains of their religion" so as far as guys in those uniforms are concerned I'd think the religion meant Jedi. |
Presuming Star Wars humans have similar lifespans to Earth humans, Luke's father, Vader, and Obi-Wan themselves weren't ancient. Vader was established in the film as a former Jedi and in publishing as a Sith, so he had two religions, but according to Obi-Wan Vader had betrayed the Jedi so no longer had "devotion" to it. Admiral Motti's line doesn't make sense to be referring to the Jedi unless he thought or was suggesting Vader was still devoted to being a Jedi, which would have been akin to accusing Vader of treason against the Empire since Vader had hunted down and killed the Jedi for the Empire. I never got the sense that Motti was attacking Vader's loyalty - It seems clear he was attacking Vader's powers and competence.
What Tarkin said was in private with Vader - None of the other uniformed Imperials were in the room for that. He said Vader was all that was left of "their" religion which refers to Vader formally but not currently being a Jedi. Tarkin obviously knows Vader had once been a Jedi, but in light of everything above, we don't know if Motti even knows that. In 1997 I had seen the original Star Wars film 100 times (I stopped counting after that). I never saw anything that made me believe that the other top Imperial officers knew everything about Vader that Tarkin did. Tarkin, not Vader, is really the main villain of ANH. He is in charge of the Death Star project and he gives orders to Vader. Tarkin and Vader obviously have established a working relationship and it is quite reasonable that Tarkin knows more about Vader than most do. Unlike Motti, Tarkin doesn't doubt Vader's abilities.
I get having your own personal interpretations of things not explicit in the films. The Clone Wars were obviously in the lifetime's of Obi-Wan (and Luke's father which was probably younger than his Jedi master), but my impression was that the Clone Wars had been longer before ANH than the two decades as later established. Luke was only a couple decades old, but my original impression was The Clone Wars had happened well before Luke had been born. There was nothing in ANH or even the classic trilogy that indicated when they occurred.
| Sutehp wrote: | | Actually, Tarkin may have meant the Jedi or the Sith or even perhaps belief in the Force in general, but Motti was directly referring to belief in the Force in general as a religion. How do we know? Remember, what prompted Motti to refer to that "sad religion" was Vader saying that the Death Star's ability to destroy a planet was insignificant next to the power of the Force[emphasis mine], rather than a direct mention of either the Jedi or the Sith. Tarkin's remark is more ambiguous since it's not a direct reference. But Motti was directly responding to Vader's mention of the Force in particular. |
I agree Motti's line was in reference to The Force being brought up, but the The Force is a general thing not exclusive to the particular ancient sects that have Force powers. General Doddona, presumably not a Jedi or Sith, said "May the Force be with you" to the Rebel pilots. Motti said, "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways Lord Vader..." He is clearly referring to a particular "ancient religion" that gives Vader abilities to use the Force, not just The Force in general. As stated above, unless Motti was accusing Vader of being a traitor to the Empire, it doesn't make sense that he was talking about the Jedi since Vader was no longer devoted to them. I feel Motti was attacking Vader's competence, not loyalty, so it would have had to have been some other ancient Force religion Motti was referring to.
I probably didn't even notice Motti's line as a kid in the threater, but after that I had read anything about Star Wars I could get my hands on which kept the story alive in my mind and allowed my knowledge of Star Wars to grow beyond what my single viewing alone could have given me. In publishing back then, I read that Vader was known as "The Dark Lord of the Sith". We knew Vader had been a Jedi who betrayed them and turned evil, so he was currently evil and currently had this mysterious "Sith" title. Putting two and two together, I reasoned that Sith must have been the opposing Force-using religion to the Jedi that Motti had been referring to. The one Vader was currently devoted to.
In light of everything we know now, I have no reason to think any different than I did in the 70s. I feel Tarkin knew Vader's identity and referred to it in private with Vader but not in front of the other Imps. Motti knew Vader's Sith title but not his identity. The Sith Order was more likely to be referred to as "ancient" because it had been believed to have ended over a thousand years before ANH, then came along Dooku and Vader who were known as Sith Lords. Tarkin was also one of the few Imperials that knew Palpatine was also a Sith or even a Force-user, as Palpatine encouraged Imperial citizens to disbelieve in the Force. The Force is what gave the common surpassed folk of the galaxy hope and Palpatine wants them to feel hopeless. But Palpatine allowed Vader's reputation to be mysterious because mystery drives fear. One rumor about Vader was that he had been a Sith apprentice of Dooku who changed loyalties to Palpatine after Dooku's death.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: |
But Motti was directly responding to Vader's mention of the Force in particular. |
Yeah but 6 year olds and casual viewers don't dissect the dialogue like this. It's one of the things about Star Wars gamers. The words make little to no sense, partly because we've all re-watched it to death! Few films get this kind of scrutiny and reading-of-tea-leaves. And none are really designed to bear up to it, cause that's not how ticket sales work. |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Outside the movies, it is clear in the KOTOR/SWTOR era that the galaxy, at that time, regarded Sith and Jedi as identical... two sects of the same religion.
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Pel
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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To an outside observer there might not be that much difference between the Jedi & Sith. Both will utterly wreck your planet to wipe out the other, and if you get in the way, you might get an apology from the Jedi. Maybe. Both groups are arrogant and intolerant of the other in the extreme (the Jedi attacked the Sith first, then pursued them to the edge of the galaxy; the Sith vowed revenge, etc.).
The average galactic citizen probably doesn't care who's swinging the laser sword that lops their head off, they just want to be left alone and allowed to live.
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Whill
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WillTasker
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | It's nothing like the Prequel era where Post took two years. |
Much to my dismay. :rimshot:
Seriously though, my feelings for TLJ aside, it had a lot going on and left a lot of balls in the air. This is going to be a hell of a situation to dig your way out of. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:55 am Post subject: |
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Ohhh One whole pic. Color me not impressed.
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Whill
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| WillTasker wrote: | | This is going to be a hell of a situation to dig your way out of. |
It is a lot to dig out of. I do enjoy going to see the sequel trilogy films but they I don't think they'll have much staying power in the film world or even within the SW fandom.
I spent 30 years waiting for a new movie about Luke Skywalker. I went in, I paid my money, I sat down, and they spent hours getting me introduced to NEW characters? Then, they spend several more hours "passing the torch" to those new characters and introducing me to MORE new characters.
So, Finn et al have basically one movie to do whatever it is that they need to do. I find it unlikely that this movie will break enough artistic ground to justify the existence of the sequel trilogy, but the character of Rose gives me some hope.
Structurally, if they really wanted a new crew of heroes, I think the first two films should have been more or less compressed into one and then the new kids get two movies to do whatever. I think having the old crew run around saving the galaxy from space monsters or something would have been better than making a new gang though. |
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Pel
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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While that would have been more interesting, had Disney killed off all of our beloved heroes in one film, there would have been riots, death threats, and all the usual fun that accompanies the more rabid aspects of fandom. Look at what happened to RA Salvatore when Chewie died in Vector Prime (I hope all those haters apologized to him now that Chewie's retconned back to life, but they probably didn't even consider it).
Better to kill the Heroes of Yavin off one at a time over the course of three films, because maybe then we won't notice. Oh, and by the way, they get to make more money if Disney strings us along.
The only nice thing I can say about TFA is Han's death was handled very well with dignity and respect for both the character and the fans. The rest? Nopey McNoperson. I'll go see Ep. IX, despite my massive misgiving, and may take a few Advil with my popcorn to keep my head from exploding.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | | While that would have been more interesting, had Disney killed off all of our beloved heroes in one film, |
Why kill them off at all? Just write them off of the screen. Plus you could still have the droids and Chewie hanging out with the new kids.
Course that's with the caveat that personally, I don't think we even needed new characters to take center stage at all. I don't see a good reason not to have made the sequel trilogy be The New Adventures of Old Luke Skywalker. Harrison Ford's done with it, fine kill him off and keep some skin in the game. Let Old Lando or someone take his place. |
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Seeing how the Sequel trilogy is supposed to be about the Heroes of Yavin handing off the torch to a new generation, I can understand the need for new characters. And if each trilogy is supposed to be about each generation of the Skywalker Saga, then that will necessitate a new generation of Skywalker characters...but the only new character of the next generation of Skywalkers is Kylo Ren/Ben Skywalker, who's the villain of the sequel trilogy. And we know he's not going to be redeemed because he's already done actions for which he can never be forgiven for, at least 2 of which we've already seen on the screen in TFA: 1) murdering an entire village of unarmed innocents and 2) the patricide of his own father. Not to mention the fact that he was already offered a chance to redeem himself in TLJ, and he spat on it.
What this means is that once Kylo Ren is defeated and/or killed in Ep IX, there will be no more Skywalkers. The characters we know and loved for 30 years won't be getting a happy ending because they'll all be dead. Han murdered, Luke dead in a Heroic Sacrifice and who knows how the writers will end Leia now that Carrie Fisher is dead, even if they do have extra footage of Fisher left over from TLJ? Not only that, but the New Republic that Luke, Leia and Han fought so hard for is dead, destroyed by Starkiller Base. And as of the end of TLJ, even the Resistance has been reduced to a few dozen people at best. Sure, there might be a time skip between TLJ and Ep. IX that will allow the Resistance to rebuild, but the good guys have already lost so much that any victory will feel at least somewhat hollow. No matter how Ep. IX ends, it's going to be a very bittersweet victory at best unless the writers manage to pull off something entirely unexpected. And even then, it will be unsatisfactory to the audience and fans if that come-from-behind victory comes off as trite.
Yeah, I dunno how Disney et al. will manage to pull themselves out of this hole. Ep. IX better be a doozy or people will write off the entire trilogy.
| Pel wrote: | | I'll go see Ep. IX, despite my massive misgiving, and may take a few Advil with my popcorn to keep my head from exploding. |
That's actually a good idea, Pel. I might have to do the same. Never hurts to be prepared.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | I think having the old crew run around saving the galaxy from space monsters or something would have been better than making a new gang though. |
Which ends with Poe yanking the mask off the monster to reveal Rian Johnson, who then yells, "And I would've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids and your Wookiee!"
Then Chewie eats some Wookiee-snacks and comic hi-jinks ensue...
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:31 am Post subject: |
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Rood Run Raggy.
| Sutehp wrote: | | Seeing how the Sequel trilogy is supposed to be about the Heroes of Yavin handing off the torch to a new generation, I can understand the need for new characters. And if each trilogy is supposed to be about each generation of the Skywalker Saga, then that will necessitate a new generation of Skywalker characters. |
Yes. First we saw the original generation of our trinity. Then we saw the previous generation. Now we see the next generation.
In my experience, the fans who say we didn't need a next generation in the ST and would rather just see an old trinity trilogy are the same ones who are still disgruntled that they didn't make the Thrawn Trilogy into movies and that the EU was decanonized. It's time to let those things go. When the Thrawn books were brand new, the actors were already too old to play a story set only a few years after RotJ.
For the ST they were really too old to play only 30 years later (TFA/TLJ should have been set 35-40 years after RotJ). Take a look at the Visual Guide images of our trinity. They actually photoshopped their faces to de-age them a bit. If you've only seen the movies once and it wasn't in HD, it might work to trick your memory into thinking that's how they looked in the film too, idealized versions of their old faces.
And I'd much rather see films where it is clearly established right of the bat that the old generation is passing the torch to the new instead of the dramatic bait and switch at the end of The Last Command where the trinity is marginalized so that Mara Sue can expectedly usurp the title of primary galactic hero by singlehandedly defeating Luke's clone and the evil Jedi master clone villain. I felt shocked and betrayed by that ending, way more than anything in TLJ, my least fave Star Wars film. I'd be downright p!ssed if they made a trilogy making you think Luke was the main hero and then dramatically pulling the rug out from under me. Especially after RotJ where Luke's climax is followed by Anakin's climax but the final climax is Lando's. The Nogri betraying Thrawn made sense, and Mara killing Luke's clone to overcome her programming made sense, but it should have been Luke Skywalker, perhaps aided by Han and Leia, who destroyed the evil Jedi clone villain.
Anyway, I think there is a very good chance that Thrawn will be Episode IX based on how Ezra and Thrawn got lost in the Unknown Regions at the end of Rebels.
| Sutehp wrote: | | the only new character of the next generation of Skywalkers is Kylo Ren/Ben Skywalker |
I don't see how you can say that with any certainty. Rey could still be a Skywalker through many possible explanations. And since the blue Skywalker lightsaber called out to her, it would certainly make the most sense if she was.
| Sutehp wrote: | | Kylo Ren/Ben Skywalker, who's the villain of the sequel trilogy. And we know he's not going to be redeemed because he's already done actions for which he can never be forgiven for |
Lucas' trilogies tell the story of the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Anakin mass murdered Jedi children and still later brought balance to the Force. I don't see how you can be so certain that Kylo is unredeemable when Anakin was much worse and killed many more than Kylo (that we know of so far).
But I'm hoping Ren is not redeemed simply because they already have been there and done that in Star Wars.
| Sutehp wrote: | | Han murdered |
That's not certain. Both had hands on the ligthsabers. Ben said he was torn apart, and there is something that he must do but he wasn't sure if he could. Han said he would do anything to help his son. It is possible that Han activated the lightsaber and killed himself, sparing Ben from the dark stain on his spirit that that would come from patricide. And if Ren killed Han at all, there most certainly was hesitation. We know that in TLJ Ren flat out lied to Snoke saying that he killed his father without hesitation. He could have also been lying about killing Han too.
| Sutehp wrote: | | Luke dead in a Heroic Sacrifice and who knows how the writers will end Leia now that Carrie Fisher is dead, even if they do have extra footage of Fisher left over from TLJ? |
The unused footage they are shoehorning into Episode IX is from both TFA and TLJ. They have already flat out said they are not killing Leia in Episode IX. That would be harsh. Killing off Han and Luke in dramatically appropriate ways impactful to the stories they occurred in is one thing, but killing Leia, who will only have a minor roll in the film, would have been idiotic. And fans have already suffered for losing Carrie Fisher.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | Seeing how the Sequel trilogy is supposed to be about |
That seems arbitrary and it's not being executed well anyway. Passing the torch to what place and for what purpose? So that we can have a different trilogy about Rey later on or something? Why? Just make a different line of SW films and have the droids and Chewie join in to tie it all together.
Star Wars has gone adrift from itself. Everyone talks about Campbell but rarely dig deeper to what made SW such a successful use of the medium of film and importantly what differentiated it from others. Mystique, synthesizing vast swathes of film history, verisimilitude, and a touch of scary grit (for kid movies), which made it a cultural success to begin with, are gone. I am not going into why I liked the OT, which is a different subject. The above is pretty much agreed upon by cultural historians, film critics, etc. as to why the OT was way more than a merely financially successful movie. Building on the cultural phenomena of the OT, pretty much any movie in the SW brand is a guaranteed at least some financial success, but that doesn't equate to good art making.
Everything new to come out except R1 has distanced itself from what made the OT work. Too much CGI killed the verisimilitude in the prequels, too much riffing off old SW movies has destroyed the cultural distillery aspect that made SW or LOTR resonate with people, explaining and expanding upon too many background things has ruined the mystique. No one seems willing to repeat the impact of a charred Owen and Beru, for example. The new stuff is a fine summer movie, but it's not going to inspire me.
As for Chewbacca's death, I don't know why novelists were given such long leashes. Between that and a planet full of people who ride around on rancors, I don't worry much about novels. I certainly didn't want the Thrawn books made into the next trilogy. |
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