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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:56 pm Post subject: Initiative stat |
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In my game I have initiative mechanically work as it does in R&E RAW*, but I have "Initiative" as a derived stat with a die code and a rank in place of just Perception. Here is my formula for the Initiative die code:
DEX + PER -1D +1 pip for every D of Tactics +1 pip for every D of Sense
As an example, a non-Force-sensitive starting Smuggler-template PC with no skill dice allocated to Tactics would have an Initiative die code of (3D+1)+3D-1D+2+0 = 5D+3. I use this as a basis for creature Initiative too. The -1D is just to reduce the "bucket of dice", because even a character or creature with only 1D in Dex and 1D in Perception will still have the minimum 1D to roll. (Creatures won't have pips from Tactics without a Knowledge attribute, but a creature may have a different Initiative than the calculation would give them if appropriate.)
The Initiative rank is just the raw average value of the die code (3.5 for every D + pips). So the above smuggler's Initiative rank would be 17.5 + 3 = 20.5. The Rank is used to determine who has the highest initiative on each side, and the initiative order on each side. The Rank makes it easier to determine who has a higher Initiative since the die code is derived from multiple stats. For example, 5D+3 (20.5) is higher than 4D+6 (20) but lower than 4D+7 (21).
For simplicity's sake, wound status penalizes Initiative once - The penalty is not applied to every component stat for penalized Initiative stat calculation. So if the above smuggler enters a new battle while still wounded twice from a previous battle, his effective Initiative would become 3D+3 (13.5).
This house rule first came about from me wanting Dexterity to have a factor in initiative while not removing Perception from being a factor. Now they are equally factors. (When piloting vehicles it could be primarily Mechanical skill being used, but "manual dexterity" is realistically an aspect of acting sooner, and now the Dexterity attribute is a factor of Initiative in those game situations.) Then I thought, Tactics and Sense could also be factors but on a smaller scale, so I have 1 pip for every die. If no Tactics skill, then base Knowledge fills that factor. If no Force, then 0 fills that factor. If using a Force attribute like me and no skill die allocation to Sense, then the base The Force attribute determines that factor. I feel this helps account for raw Force potential without any training, like little Ani being able to instinctively "see things before they happen".
PCs already have a higher average Perception than their enemies. In general, yes this Initiative stat is even more of an advantage for PCs because of the multiple factors - PCs also have higher Dexterity, and Tactics than their enemies on average, and PCs are more likely to have the Force than most of the enemies they will be up against. It is even less likely to lose initiative to mooks with this. In my game, this helps balance things out with my Damage/Wound system which makes the game more deadly for everyone including PCs.
My character sheets have a place for the Initiative die code (and rank). You calculate Initiative during char gen and record it on your sheet. Since rolling Initiative at the beginning of a battle is a free action, you have to adjust it in-play for armor Dex penalties and wound status, but it is easy to adjust. When the Tactics or Sense skills advance up the next D, then you do add your pips to your Initiative die code (and rank). This Initiative stat has been play-tested in a couple battles and then used 'live' in two adventures. So far so good. I just thought I'd share.
* Not really.
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Last edited by Whill on Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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OuttaWindu
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Mar 2018
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting, and more comprehensive than the default.
Have you figured if this have any impact on races that have an initiative bonus like Cerean(Kid-Adi Mundi's race) who gets +1D? |
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Raven Redstar
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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I like it!
The solo games I've been playing in using the Pool of the Force skill list has Situational Awareness skill under perception which is rolled for initiative rather than straight Perception, which has been working pretty well for me so far, but I may see about giving your system a try here in one of my newer solo games.
Thanks for sharing!
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| OuttaWindu wrote: | Interesting, and more comprehensive than the default.
Have you figured if this have any impact on races that have an initiative bonus like Cerean(Kid-Adi Mundi's race) who gets +1D? |
I haven't stated out Cereans for my game yet but any species who should get a +1D bonus to initiative could still get that same bonus with this rule. It is just added to the Initiative stat instead of Perception.
| Raven Redstar wrote: | I like it!
The solo games I've been playing in using the Pool of the Force skill list has Situational Awareness skill under perception which is rolled for initiative rather than straight Perception, which has been working pretty well for me so far, but I may see about giving your system a try here in one of my newer solo games.
Thanks for sharing! |
Thanks, and you're welcome. Thanks for bringing up awareness as it is related to Initiative.
In 1e and the original 2e, active awareness checks were made with Search or Perception, while passive awareness was base Perception only. I thought this made sense because Search could be raised from the attribute, and if so it is easier to notice something when looking than when not. Then R&E changed it so that the Search skill could also be used for passive awareness as well, but it should have been renamed Awareness because you don't passively "search" for something. "Search" means active. I didn't like the change so I just kept doing it the way the game had done for the first 9 years.
The thing I don't like about passive awareness getting its own skill along side active awareness is that it is possible to be better at noticing something when not looking, than when looking. That's doesn't make sense to me. But I thought that there should be away to increase passive awareness above base attribute, so I compromised with making and "Improved Awareness" advantage that can be purchased for one skill die during character creation.
Improved Awareness
Benefits: Provides a +2 bonus to passive awareness rolls and a +1 bonus to initiative rolls.
Prerequisites: Perception 2D+1, search +1D (at least 1 skill die allocated)
Restrictions: None
Record: Under Advantages put "Improved Awareness", under Perception put "Passive Awareness" followed by a die value of Perception +2, and add +1 to the Initiative die value and rank. With the requirement to allocate one skill die to Search in additional to spending a skill die to get this advantage, Search will still be slightly higher than passive awareness, which will only be +2 over base attribute. And it gives +1 to the Initiative stat. Since the Initiative stat is powered mostly by attribute dice, I didn't want to make the skill-dice-bought advantage to be too overpowering.
The advantage also serves to address a fairly common criticism of the pre-R&E and my current Star Wars systems by general D6ers, that physical/environmental awareness skills are combined with social/interpersonal awareness/influence skills under the same attribute. They like having two Perception attributes to split them up. With passive awareness a base attribute ability, you can't be good at passive physical awareness without also being good at social awareness skills. For all I know, that is why R&E changed Star Wars by putting passive environmental awareness with search, so that a character could have low Perception with high physical awareness skills or high social awareness. I considered adding another attribute, but that just jacked up a lot of stuff so I said forget that and just added the Improved Awareness advantage. It still doesn't give you drastic differences between passive environmental awareness and social skills, but it is a step in that direction. In my game you can have a character who is better at passive environmental awareness than social awareness, but active awareness still can't be lower than passive awareness.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:47 am Post subject: |
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What about making Awareness an Advanced skill with Perception as a Prerequisite, then allow characters to make Passive Search checks with the Awareness dice?
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Pel
Line Captain
Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 983
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: |
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I like Whill's approach. It's organic without being cumbersome. Cereans and Gotals should definitely receive a bonus (along with any other sensitive races I'm forgetting).
I modified the old 2nd edition Shadowrun initiative rules (also D6!) years ago to do something similar but Whill's solution is more comprehensive.
One quick question: Does the +1/Sense Die seem like a disadvantage to your Jedi players? I'm not pre-judging here, it's just a something that jumps out at me.
I think an advanced skill is worth discussion, but IMO it complicates what should be a quick game mechanism and could cause players to neglect other skills with broader applications.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | | I think an advanced skill is worth discussion, but IMO it complicates what should be a quick game mechanism and could cause players to neglect other skills with broader applications. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | What about making Awareness an Advanced skill with Perception as a Prerequisite, then allow characters to make Passive Search checks with the Awareness dice? |
I'm a bit under the weather and I might be confused.
Passive awareness checks are something all characters should be able to do, whether it is a normal skill like in R&E RAW, or a base attribute ability like in 1e, original 2e, and my system. Making passive awareness an advanced skill would mean no one could passively notice anything without having that skill, because advanced skills do not default to attributes.
In you mean make my Improved Awareness an advanced skill instead of an advantage and those advanced skill dice stack on base Perception for passive awareness checks only, then that goes back to what I said about passive awareness possibly being greater than active awareness, and that doesn't make any sense to me.
If you mean this proposed awareness advanced skill is used for both passive and active awareness checks, then this seems overcomplicated and you may as well just stick with R&E RAW which already has active and passive awareness equal as a single normal skill and always equal.
Unless you mean that the advanced Awareness skill stacks on both base Perception for passive awareness, and search for active awareness. That would still allow my requirement of passive awareness never being better than active awareness. But to not let Initiative improve too much through skill, I would maybe cap the Initiative bonus of this advanced skill at 1 pip for every die. But a character having too high of a passive awareness could be overpowering, which is one reason I like not having it be a part of search.
I think such an advanced skill could possibly exist in my game, but I still like my advantage because it could be an inherent aspect of a character without any training. It is just a part of the character at char gen, and they could just be thought of as naturally more aware. And it is capped from the start with no way to increase it.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | | One quick question: Does the +1/Sense Die seem like a disadvantage to your Jedi players? I'm not pre-judging here, it's just a something that jumps out at me. |
How could it be a disadvantage? In RAW, Sense does not provide any direct bonus to Initiative. That factor of my Initiative stat is giving Jedi something they don't have in RAW. It is a minor advantage. And just to be clear, this isn't replacing any Jedi powers. This little bonus is just something that comes naturally to Force Sensitive characters without even having any training or using powers.
| Pel wrote: | | I like Whill's approach. It's organic without being cumbersome... Whill's solution is more comprehensive. |
I take "organic without being cumbersome" as a big compliment. Thanks!
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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I'm basically re-stating what I said here, but it's on point...
The way I picture it, Passive Search happens automatically so long as the character isn't performing any other standard actions. A character can declare, "I perform action 'X' while keeping an eye on my surroundings," and then roll both Perception/Search and whatever action X is at a -1D MAP penalty. Awareness, as an Advanced Skill, would get a free Perception/Search roll every round whether the character declared it or not. This would be in addition to stacking with Search (its one prerequisite).
I already have that as an Advanced Skill for pilots under my ASC system, and garhkal had a proposal over on the Holonet for three different sub-skills: Space, Atmosphere and Surface Vehicles. I figure Space and Atmosphere don't need separate skills, so my three would be Aerospace, Surface and Personal.
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Pel
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
How could it be a disadvantage? In RAW, Sense does not provide any direct bonus to Initiative. That factor of my Initiative stat is giving Jedi something they don't have in RAW. It is a minor advantage. And just to be clear, this isn't replacing any Jedi powers. This little bonus is just something that comes naturally to Force Sensitive characters without even having any training or using powers. |
I mischaracterized my question by calling it a disadvantage. Did your Jedi players feel nerfed by the +1/Sense Die, or did it seem balanced to everyone in lieu of a larger bonus from Sense dice?
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | How could it be a disadvantage? In RAW, Sense does not provide any direct bonus to Initiative. That factor of my Initiative stat is giving Jedi something they don't have in RAW. It is a minor advantage. And just to be clear, this isn't replacing any Jedi powers. This little bonus is just something that comes naturally to Force Sensitive characters without even having any training or using powers. |
I mischaracterized my question by calling it a disadvantage. Did your Jedi players feel nerfed by the +1/Sense Die, or did it seem balanced to everyone in lieu of a larger bonus from Sense dice? |
I'm still confused by your question.
RAW's Sense bonus to Initiative = 0
My Sense bonus to Initiative = 1 pip for every die.
| Quote: | nerf
Verb
nerf (third-person singular simple present nerfs, present participle nerfing, simple past and past participle nerfed)
1. (slang, video games) To cripple, weaken, worsen, deteriorate or debuff (a character, a weapon, a spell, etc.)
The lightning spell was originally pretty powerful, but in the sequel they nerfed it so it became completely useless.
Synonyms
debuff, worsen, deteriorate, cripple |
Jedi initiative was not weakened or worsened. It improved slightly in my system. How could players of Jedi characters feel nerfed by being strengthened? You said, "in lieu of a larger bonus" so do you mean something like this...?
"So I see that Jedi characters get a little boost from Sense for your Initiative stat. I like that, but now that I have newly considered a bonus my Jedi PCs has never had with any other GM, I have decided that it is not good enough. I want a full die per die, or I am going to feel Jedi are weakened in your game."
That? Hell no. I've never had players complain about getting a small bonus because they suddenly felt they deserve even more. That does not even compute. Do you have players like that? Give them an inch and they suddenly feel slighted you didn't give them a mile? I don't want players like that. That's disgusting. I had no idea that was even a thing. I'm glad I never experienced that.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | I'm basically re-stating what I said here, but it's on point...
The way I picture it, Passive Search happens automatically so long as the character isn't performing any other standard actions. A character can declare, "I perform action 'X' while keeping an eye on my surroundings," and then roll both Perception/Search and whatever action X is at a -1D MAP penalty. . |
Search is not a passive skill, perception is though.
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Pel
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I've never had players complain about getting a small bonus because they suddenly felt they deserve even more. That does not even compute. Do you have players like that? Give them an inch and they suddenly feel slighted you didn't give them a mile? I don't want players like that. That's disgusting. I had no idea that was even a thing. I'm glad I never experienced that. |
No, I've never had any entitled demanding players. My games are usually pretty fun. Your approach is innovative and I'd like to incorporate it into my games as is. My only question was if the Jedi players ever asked, "Mr. GM, this Force thing is pretty special. Do you think being tuned in to the stuff that binds the galaxy together deserves more than +1 per Sense die?"
That's it. Just a simple question meant to understand how your approach worked in actual gameplay. I apologize for not conveying my meaning the first two times. No offense was ever intended. Quite the opposite, in fact.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Search is not a passive skill, perception is though. |
That's the way it was in 1e and the original 2e book. That's the way I still run it. But as I have already stated in this thread, it changed in R&E. Search began being used for passive awareness checks as well.
| Quote: | | Gamemasters often ask players to make search or Perception rolls to see how much their characters notice about their surroundings. The higher the roll, the more the character notices. |
Perception Skills on R&E p.53
| Quote: | | This skill is also used to spot hiding characters, such as a group of aliens preparing an ambush. |
Search on R&E p.57.
I think it is clear the intention was to include passive awareness with Search. It does not say this about Search before R&E.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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IMO, a properly written Danger Sense power is all that's really needed to fix Initiative for Jedi...
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