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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | So from there, as far as limitations, instead of a points pool, we could do a dice pool, allowing a certain number of dice to be added to ship systems, total, and to go beyond that, you would have to purchase additional dice slots, but the purchase of additional slots gets more and more expensive the more you buy, until you reach a point where you can have something like the Millennium Falcon in Cracken's Threat Dossier (Space 11, HD x1/2, Hull 6D, Shields 3D, Maneuverability 2D, plus 100 metric tons cargo capacity) with the services of a high-end naval shipyard.
Alternately, you could gain additional upgrade dice in trade for mandatory mishaps; things that go wrong with the ship because whatever you've upgraded has exceeded the design capacity of the ship. |
There would also need to be some limitations in so far as how much dice you could put in any one category before you would have to purchase a dice pool upgrade. If the dice pool was, say, 6D, a freighter captain could dump all that dice into his speed code and ignore everything else. There would need to be at least some form of balance. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Plus there would also have to be some way to figure out the "D" code variable for speed and cargo.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Plus there would also have to be some way to figure out the "D" code variable for speed and cargo. |
Well, the speed is easy enough. Just use the 1E-2E speed code conversion to turn the ship's Space into a D6 number, then modify from there. Of course, a simpler way would be to have, say 1D from the dice pool equal a 2 point jump in Space (which is about what the 1E-2E conversion rate was anyway).
Cargo, naturally is a bit more difficult. Space considerations do have to be taken into effect, but I'm still not sure exactly what form that would take. So, in the time honored tradition of West End Games, when in doubt, I'll just throw out a number, like 1D of dice pool equals 10 metric tons of cargo capacity, and see if anyone balks at it.
Also, how would we determine what the original dice pool would be? It can't be the same for every ship; simple physics and geometry dictate that some vessels will have more capacity to accept modifications than others, and some vessels are specifically designed with tight or loose designs that affect the degree to which they take modifications. |
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jmanski
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Most should be roughly the same, for simplicity, IMHO. Others will have more or less. Corellian ships will be more easily modified, while the Z-10, for instance, will be harder.
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Captain Xenon
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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on the original topic- lets look at the YT-1300 stock freighter. it costs 100,000 credits new.
Now, if you want a better version (and can afford the imperial permits), it makes perfect sense that the manufacturer could put it together for you at a higher price tag.
Lets say i want a x1 hyperdrive, an ion engine with a speed of 8 spaces, and 3D of shields. This adds a weight of 44 tons, while removing the old hyperdrive and ion engine reduce weight by 25 tons. So we now have a cargo capacity of 81 tons. If we improve the trust, we can raise that to 101 tons, while reducing the speed to 6 (as per 1e GG:6 rules). 1e rules allow for a further upgrade to the engines, which would translate to +1 space for 2/3rds the original price and tonnage. as the weight would be about 10 tons in this case, its not worth it.
so, space 6, 3D shields, an extra ton of cargo, and a x1 hyperdrive- all for the low price of 165,000 new, and an extra 10,000 in permits. you could do the same modifications yourself after buying a stock model, if you dont mind doing the labor. as better engines are military-only, we will probably not see anything faster on a civilian freighter from the manufacturer. the only downside to getting a ship this way is cost, few people can afford such an expense. if you have that kind of money, you could instead get a used medium freighter and turn a much larger profit.
boosting the engine back up to space 8 with mods costs 24,750 (if we use the 'new' base price) and has a +1 mishap modifier. that raises the ship price(with permits) to 199,750 with an ion drive that may stall if you push it too hard. on the upside, it can keep pace with an X-wing and outrun y-wings.
maneuverability and Hull are a separate issue, as the two different editions of GG:6 have different rules for them. in 1e, we see lateral thrusters to cheaply add maneuver dice, and hull upgrades that reduce manuverability by an equal amount- these upgrades do not seem to have an upper limit, and could be done in a way that changes the relative price of lateral thrusters. By comparison, the 2e version has much higher costs for small upgrades, with serious downsides to heavy modification. As later edition rules usually supersede the rules of earlier editions, we can conclude that the writers probably found the 1e version to be overpowered and toned it down. It would make sense to allow the 1e version in some circumstances however, such as a variant model of a ship manufactured with different ratings.
under 1e rules, we could buy our yt-1300 3D of maneuverability for [4*1*100*4= 2D, +4*2*100*3= 3D] 4000 credits, and then raise hull +1D (lowering maneuverability back to 2D) for 15,000 credits. It would seem that maneuverability needs to increase first, as it is then lowered by the hull increase. increasing a hull with 0D maneuverability would be an odd thing, and perhaps represent a practical limit.
under 2e rules, we could at best get +1D+2 maneuverability and +1d+1 hull, at a high cost and with a high risk of failure.
the example ship 'solar flare' has +2D hull, +3D maneuver(modified down to 1D by the hull upgrade), and some VERY impressive engines to add 50 tons of cargo even after the hyperdrive upgrade and 2D shields (at least 8 spaces, so mover 12+). as the ship has the same stats in both editions, and modification alone cannot give +2D hull, we may conclude the 1e rules for hulls and maneuverability must have some validity under 2e.
if a good engineer can do the 1e upgrades to your ship, the cost may stay low. if it has to be factory original, then the price depends on how the company decides to price such options(probably including the extra labor cost), and the Empire may want to restrict such upgrades as well(easily represented with permits and restrictions). |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Xenon wrote: | on the original topic- lets look at the YT-1300 stock freighter. it costs 100,000 credits new.
Now, if you want a better version (and can afford the imperial permits), it makes perfect sense that the manufacturer could put it together for you at a higher price tag. |
I agree, but my goal here is to develop something along the lines of the different packages available at the dealership. The idea here being that it's not economically feasible for the company to custom build a starship to every buyer's specifications. However, they can make an educated guess as to the sorts of modifications and upgrades would be attractive to a specific set of their target audience, based on study groups, surveys, past sales data, etc.
Custom building a starship to a buyer's specifications is the sort of thing you would see on high end luxury vessels like star yachts. Light freighters and such are more for the masses, so the company will be more interested in factory upgrade packages. The idea here is that the packages will attract customers by offering options they're interested in, but will be much more economical because they are mass produced.
| Captain Xenon wrote: | Lets say i want a x1 hyperdrive, an ion engine with a speed of 8 spaces, and 3D of shields. This adds a weight of 44 tons, while removing the old hyperdrive and ion engine reduce weight by 25 tons. So we now have a cargo capacity of 81 tons. If we improve the trust, we can raise that to 101 tons, while reducing the speed to 6 (as per 1e GG:6 rules). 1e rules allow for a further upgrade to the engines, which would translate to +1 space for 2/3rds the original price and tonnage. as the weight would be about 10 tons in this case, its not worth it.
so, space 6, 3D shields, an extra ton of cargo, and a x1 hyperdrive- all for the low price of 165,000 new, and an extra 10,000 in permits. you could do the same modifications yourself after buying a stock model, if you dont mind doing the labor. as better engines are military-only, we will probably not see anything faster on a civilian freighter from the manufacturer. the only downside to getting a ship this way is cost, few people can afford such an expense. if you have that kind of money, you could instead get a used medium freighter and turn a much larger profit.
boosting the engine back up to space 8 with mods costs 24,750 (if we use the 'new' base price) and has a +1 mishap modifier. that raises the ship price(with permits) to 199,750 with an ion drive that may stall if you push it too hard. on the upside, it can keep pace with an X-wing and outrun y-wings.
maneuverability and Hull are a separate issue, as the two different editions of GG:6 have different rules for them. in 1e, we see lateral thrusters to cheaply add maneuver dice, and hull upgrades that reduce manuverability by an equal amount- these upgrades do not seem to have an upper limit, and could be done in a way that changes the relative price of lateral thrusters. By comparison, the 2e version has much higher costs for small upgrades, with serious downsides to heavy modification. As later edition rules usually supersede the rules of earlier editions, we can conclude that the writers probably found the 1e version to be overpowered and toned it down. It would make sense to allow the 1e version in some circumstances however, such as a variant model of a ship manufactured with different ratings.
under 1e rules, we could buy our yt-1300 3D of maneuverability for [4*1*100*4= 2D, +4*2*100*3= 3D] 4000 credits, and then raise hull +1D (lowering maneuverability back to 2D) for 15,000 credits. It would seem that maneuverability needs to increase first, as it is then lowered by the hull increase. increasing a hull with 0D maneuverability would be an odd thing, and perhaps represent a practical limit.
under 2e rules, we could at best get +1D+2 maneuverability and +1d+1 hull, at a high cost and with a high risk of failure.
the example ship 'solar flare' has +2D hull, +3D maneuver(modified down to 1D by the hull upgrade), and some VERY impressive engines to add 50 tons of cargo even after the hyperdrive upgrade and 2D shields (at least 8 spaces, so mover 12+). as the ship has the same stats in both editions, and modification alone cannot give +2D hull, we may conclude the 1e rules for hulls and maneuverability must have some validity under 2e.
if a good engineer can do the 1e upgrades to your ship, the cost may stay low. if it has to be factory original, then the price depends on how the company decides to price such options(probably including the extra labor cost), and the Empire may want to restrict such upgrades as well(easily represented with permits and restrictions). |
I'm not seeing where you're getting the guidelines for this. Do you have a copy of 1E Tramp Freighters that you're using? I'd love to snag a copy, but the least expensive one I can find right now is $25 on Amazon. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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I cut and pasted this from a different topic.
| Raven Redstar wrote: | It's generally the same.
Differences are in the way the 2 editions handled starship stats in the first place.
Ion Drives are given a speed code. From 1D - 7D
1D - 3,000 - 8 tons
2D - 10,000 - 10 tons
3D - 20,000 - 12 tons
4D - 50,000 - 16 tons
5D - 100,000 - 18 tons
6D - 500,000 - 24 tons
7D - 1,000,000 - 28 tons
One can modify out an extra 2 pips of speed from ion engines.
Improved Thrust:
At the time of installation captain can decide to install an ion engine with more thrusting power and less speed, to increase his ship's cargo capacity. Every D of speed he sacrifices, grants +20 metric tons of cargo capacity.
Lateral Thrusters:
Increasing maneuverability is Cost: hull rating (rounded down) x dice of maneuverability desired x 100 per pip of increase.
Hull:
Hull rating to be achieved (rounded down) x 1000 credits
for every pip of hull rating improved, decrease maneuverability by 1 pip. Anything less than 1D maneuverability is treated as zero.
Those I believe are the major system differences. |
Now, I haven't looked all the way through this in detail, and I'll probably be looking on line for a copy of Tramp Freighters 1E to confirm everything, but this looks a lot like what we've been talking about. Thoughts? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:05 am Post subject: Re: Starship Factory Upgrades |
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Some serious thread necromancy here...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | My hard drive crashed a while back, and I lost a large amount of archived Star Wars D6 homebrew ideas that I had saved up over the years. One of the things that I lost was a list of factory upgrades for YT1300 freighters. Basically, it allowed you to purchase a variety of modest add-ons that made the ship "better than stock". It included options for up +2D in armor, shields and maneuverability, up to +2 in Space, an upgraded hyperdrive, increased consumables storage, enhanced sensor package, increased computer capacity allowing for reduced crew, a second laser cannon, external cargo attachments, etc.
It even allowed you to select the cockpit layout of the YT-1300 from the factory, specifically that you could select the cockpit location (left, right, or center-line). It even gave you the option of including two cockpits, but converting one of them to an extra cargo bay or a parking garage for a small speeder.
Each modification included a price listing and how much cargo space (if any) would be lost or gained. The prices weren't cheap, and some were only available at the time of purchase, and couldn't be modified in later, but the prices were competitive with similar aftermarket upgrades without the attendant mishap issues. |
After eight years, the WEG gods hath smiled upon me, and seen fit to return this lost morsel of knowledge unto their humble servant. I, in turn, share it with thee:YT-Series
Models:
The YT-1300 is one of the most widespread light freighters, but most people do not realize that the YT-1300 series is composed of several subgroups. There are three standard models, the basic YT-1200, the standard YT-1300 and the deluxe YT-1400.
YT-1200
The model 1200 was designed as a poor man's freighter. It lacks the bow mandibles, but has instead a small boom extension forward. This makes it a cramped design that lacks space for upgrading. It was not a very popular ship and the production was curtailed after only a relatively small number had been built.
Cost: 75,000 Credits (New); 18,000 Credits (Used)
Length: 26.7 meters
Cargo Capacity: 90 metric tons
YT-1300
The model 1300 became such a sales success that it is still in limited production today! It has the trademark most people associate with the YT-series, namely the bow mandibles, and is a common sight in space ports.
Cost: 100,000 Credits (New); 25,000 Credits (Used)
Length: 35 meters
Cargo Capacity: 100 metric tons
YT-1400
The model 1400 is basically a model 1300 with the empty space between the bow mandibles filled with a pressurized cargo hold, configured to take maximum 60 ton of extra cargo.
Cost: 125,000 Credits (New); 32,000 Credits (Used)
Length: 35 meters
Cargo Capacity: 160 metric tons
Sub-Types:
The three models can be configured during construction to different standards regarding their maneuverability and the placement of the command pod. These modifications to the basic design do not warrant any mishap modifiers since the ships are built to take them as standard.
Cockpit Position (YT-xx#x)
The third digit in the ship's class number refers to the positioning of the cockpit. While some ships may actually mount multiple cockpit pods, only of these will be the actual cockpit; the others will be used as vehicle bays, equipment housings, or as additional cargo storage.
xx1x
Cockpit Placement: Starboard Side
Cost: No additional cost
xx2x
Cockpit Placement: Port Side
Cost: No additional cost
xx3x
Cockpit Placement: Center Line
Cost: +10,000 Credits (New), +2,000 Credits (Used)
xx4x
Cockpit Placement: Dorsal (on top of the ship, in place of the dorsal laser turret).
Cost: +10,000 Credits (New), +2,000 Credits (Used)
Maneuverability (YT-xxx#)
xxx0
Maneuverability: 0D
Cost: No additional cost (Stock)
xxx1
Maneuverability: 1D
Cost: +15000 Credits (New), +5000 Credits (Used)
xxx2
Maneuverability: 2D
Cost: +25000 Credits (New), +10000 Credits (Used)
Packages:
R (Reinforced Hull)
Uses a heavier alloy for the hull plating and internal framework, as well as enhanced inertial compensators.
Hull: +1D
Cost: 15,000 Credits.
S (Improved Sensor Suite)
Sensors:
Passive 15/0D
Scan 35/1D
Search 60/2D
Focus 3/3D
Cost: 5% of base cost
Weight: 5 metric tons
M (Multiple Cockpit Pods)
One serves as the command pod, the other(s) is empty space (must be designated during construction). Additional pod often used for special environment cargos or vehicle parking for speeder bikes or EVA equipment.
Weight: Add 10 tons to Cargo Capacity
Cost: +7% of base cost
P (Extended Range)
Fitted with long range consumable tanks and better recycling systems.
Consumables: 4 months
Weight: 8 metric tons
Cost: 3% of base cost.
U (External Cargo Pods)
Mounting points for detachable cargo pods. The pods fit over the dorsal curve of the saucer section, and allow the ship to carry a lot more cargo. They cannot be accessed from inside the hull. With a crane or tractor facility, the pods may be mounted or removed in approximately twenty minutes.
Cargo Capacity: Increased by 100 metric tons (50 cubic meters)
Cost: 2% of base cost. (A full set of cargo pods costs 5,000 credits, with an Availability of 1)
Penalties: If carrying cargo in external pods, the ship suffers a penalty of -1 Space and -1D Maneuverability.
The replacement of the standard systems with improved ones does not change the model number, which means that there are countless variations of these three models out in the galaxy.
Ship captains don't usually call their ship with the complete model and variant number, using instead the basic model number to describe their vessel. This means that Han Solo's YT-1300, the famous Millenium Falcon, is really an YT1312-R, although very heavily modified...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | My goal is to recreate this list for a broader spectrum of use, where it can be applied to any "stock light freighter" to one degree or another. What I'm really asking for is ideas for upgrades that I haven't thought of. |
So, the above section on the YT-1300 was the basis for this idea, which I found on Wing Commander Luna's long defunct Star Wars RPG website (where I've found so many other gems that inspired many of my various stats, so credit where credit is more certainly due). I've cleaned it up for ease of reading, and added a few tidbits to the original, but it's mostly unchanged (I did resist the urge to make some changes I thought might be more appropriate).
The reason I'm bumping this is two-fold. First, I'd like to get some input on how to clean up the above rule, and hopefully expand it with additional dealership package types. Second, I'd like to come up with a conversion system that is generally applicable to every stock light freighter, allowing GMs and characters to make their own model of the ship more fully their own without resorting to the questionable nature of either their own Technical skills or to shady outlaw mechanics.
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:13 am Post subject: |
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I'm thinking that you could do packages like a car dealership.
Tow Package
Off-road Package
Sports Package
Luxury Package
Family Package
I'm just spitballing here.
That is some epic necromancy, btw.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | I'm thinking that you could do packages like a car dealership.
Tow Package
Off-road Package
Sports Package
Luxury Package
Family Package
I'm just spitballing here. |
That was my original concept, that a YT-1300 (or, indeed, any light freighter) could be purchased with "dealership packages" while still remaining "stock."
Unfortunately, most of what you suggested either doesn't really mesh well with space travel, don't have a clear way of fitting into a ship stat, or are already included in some way (the Sports package).
What I currently have in mind for changes to the main list is:-Converting the Maneuverability sub-type (YT-xxx#) over to a Drive sub-type, with the xxx1 having a Space of 5, and the xxx2 having a Space of 6.
-Change the "P (Extended Range)" to "E (Extended Range)", then include a "P (Performance)" package that increases Maneuverability to 1D.
-Add a "D (Defense)" Package that adds a second laser cannon and 1D of Shields.
-Change the Cargo Pods from U to C, then add a "U (Utility)" Package with a Tractor Beam and Universal Docking Collar.
-"N (Navigation)" Package with an Enhanced Navcomputer (either +1D to Astrogation or -5 to all Astrogation Difficulties)
-"A (Autopilot)" Package with a basic droid brain that can fly the ship at, say, a 3D skill level.
-"T (Thrust)" Package where the increased Speed from the Drive Sub-Type can be traded for additional cargo capacity (ala the Thrust Option from the 1E of Tramp Freighters). That ended up being a bit more exhaustive than I had originally thought...
| Quote: | | That is some epic necromancy, btw. |
Yup. Pure luck. Stumbled across it while looking for something else. I had lost the original and couldn't remember where I found it the first time, but lo and behold, the original source was one of my back-in-the-day SWD6 favorites.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
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Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:53 am Post subject: |
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Hauling Package - Extra Tonnage of cargo capacity
Long-haul Package - Extra Tonnage + Consumables
Sports Package - Extra Speed & Maneuverability
Jumper Package - Hyperdrive upgrade
Long Jumper Package - Hyperdrive + Consumables
Family Package - Additional Passengers
Diamond Package - Increased Hull code.
Uhhh... what else is there?
Deluxe package could have the Luxury upgrade from Scum & Villainy.
Then you could have some fun combing them:
Sporty Diamond Edition.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | Hauling Package - Extra Tonnage of cargo capacity
Long-haul Package - Extra Tonnage + Consumables
Sports Package - Extra Speed & Maneuverability
Long Jumper Package - Hyperdrive + Consumables
Diamond Package - Increased Hull code. |
These are either already covered or are combinations of things already covered.
| Quote: | | Jumper Package - Hyperdrive upgrade |
This could be worked into the Drive subtype. With 9 numbers to work with, it could be the three different Sublight Drive Speeds combined with either x2, x1.5 or x1 Hyperdrives
| Quote: | | Family Package - Additional Passengers |
Per Wookieepedia, the YT-1300 had both P (Passenger) and F (Freight) conversions for the base design, so this one works, too.
| Quote: | | Deluxe package could have the Luxury upgrade from Scum & Villainy. |
I'm aware of this one, but I don't see how it transfers over to D6. All it does (IIRC) is increase Crew Quality, but WEG doesn't have an equivalent to that stat.
| Quote: | Then you could have some fun combing them:
Sporty Diamond Edition. |
That starts to get crazy, though. A fully decked out YT-1300 would technically be a YT-1318RSMPUEDNATand I've lost track of all the letters we've used so far...
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Sutehp
Commodore
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 1797
Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:45 am Post subject: Re: Starship Factory Upgrades |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Some serious thread necromancy here... |
And you must be saluted for such a longtime resurrection. 8)
But yeah, this is some great stuff. It got me wondering if the Millennium Falcon we see in Solo is technically a YT-1400 since it has the cargo pod between the mandibles (which Lando converted into his personal suite).
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Zarn
Force Spirit
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Posts: 698
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Or, he bought some aftermarket upgrades, complete with repulsorlift stance adjusters for the landing legs and spinners for the sensor dish.
Last edited by Zarn on Thu May 02, 2019 4:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarn wrote: | | Or, he bought some aftermarket upgrades, complete with repulsorlift stance adjusters for the landing legs and spinners for the sensor dish. |
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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