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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Solo4114 wrote: | | I lean towards 1E or one of its variants. The concept of the "wild die" sounds...not great. |
I'm always just a little bit surprised when I hear people say that they don't like the wild die. I love it and I think it nicely explains things seen in the movies (on the 1 on the wild die side) Han's really, really lame Con in ANH or the time he steps on the twig when sneaking up on the Biker Scout in RotJ. And it's always exciting when the players get a few sixes on the wild die at a dramatic moment.
I'm not trying to argue about which is better, but I'm curious why people dislike the wild die. I guess that should be a separate thread. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | One died from going into a known area of airborn toxins saying :Well i am a gand i don't need to breath", forgetting i mentioned "THe toxins are absorbed through the skin, not the lungs". |
| garhkal wrote: | Told him "You do know your gand resistance vs toxins is only for those who don't breath, not for toxins absorbed through the skin".. His reply "That's why you have a high bloody stamina!..
Then proceeded to roll nuthin but 2s.... |
That's saying two different things. In the first version the PC forgot. In the second version, he counted on his high stamina and rolled poorly.
| garhkal wrote: | | ...Then they tried jet packing over to the 2nd at-at, and it shot at them.. The guy being carried forgot that the jet pack skill is what you use to DODGE enemy fire, not the dodge skill, when using jet packs.. Got hit by the AT-AT's chin laser cannon.. Both fell down mortally wounded, causing one to die from the fall, the other just bled out. |
| garhkal wrote: | | No he rolled Jet pack. All 4d+2 of it (8d+2 with scale. Vs 5d+2 gunnery +2d+2 fire control). I just got better... What made you think i forced him to roll dodge, then gleefully cackled away as i said "you doufus you should roll jet pack ops.. but too late you die"?? |
Yes, that's what it sounded like. In the first version, the player forgot which skill was needed to dodge when flying a jet pack and got hit. In the second version, he rolled the correct skill and rolled poorly. Thanks for the clarifications.
| garhkal in 2010 wrote: | In my home games, i have..
14 pcs dead from being on point and springing an ambush on the party (they were the first getting hit).
12 pc's dead from flying and getting hit in space combat/air combat.'
7 iirc Total party kills from being in ship combat and getting the craft they were in blown up |
That's excessive PC death. I think my original point still stands...
| Whill wrote: | | I didn't even read your D&D examples. If you are having a problem with PCs dying off in any game, I think it's safe to say the problem is you. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That's saying two different things. In the first version the PC forgot. In the second version, he counted on his high stamina and rolled poorly. |
It does sound off now i re-read what i wrote, i will give you that.
| Quote: | | Yes, that's what it sounded like. In the first version, the player forgot which skill was needed to dodge when flying a jet pack and got hit. In the second version, he rolled the correct skill and rolled poorly. Thanks for the clarifications. |
Glad to give them.
| Quote: | | That's excessive PC death. I think my original point still stands... |
Not when you've been gaming/running for over 2 decades.. Hell for my Con group, i've had (rough #s here)
20 conventions of 8 game sessions (ave 6 players each session),
7 cons of 4 slots of running 6 players
2 cons of 7 slots..
So that's 8x20x6, + 7x4x6 + 2x7x6 giving me approx 1200 player's i have Dmed for.. Yet i am barely at 20 killed.. Almost 2%. THAT's no where close to being excessive, or a "Killer GM'..
Even if it was 10%, i wouldn't call that a killer DM. 25% or more, now THAT i might see as being a 'killer dm'..
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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal in 2010 wrote: | 14 pcs dead from being on point and springing an ambush on the party (they were the first getting hit).
12 pc's dead from flying and getting hit in space combat/air combat.'
7 iirc Total party kills from being in ship combat and getting the craft they were in blown up |
| garhkal wrote: | | Yet i am barely at 20 killed. |
In 2010 you said you had 7 total party kills from starship destroyed results, with more PC deaths on top of that. Your figures don't add up.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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TPK's from home games..
That's totally different from my Convention group.
And you would have seen that had you quoted the entire post..
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | TPK's from home games..
That's totally different from my Convention group. |
OK. It seems like we are going around in circles now...
| Whill wrote: | | garhkal in 2010 wrote: | In my home games, i have..
14 pcs dead from being on point and springing an ambush on the party (they were the first getting hit).
12 pc's dead from flying and getting hit in space combat/air combat.'
7 iirc Total party kills from being in ship combat and getting the craft they were in blown up |
That's excessive PC death. |
OK, this was home games only. Got it. You have expressed in the past how you disagree with Sparks policy of not killing off PCs in most cases. You have expressed how you dislike fudging. You don't get to have a deadly home game then include convention gaming with almost no PC death, and say that on average you aren't an overly deadly GM.
So I clarify my previous statements by saying 7 TPKs on top of the other PC deaths in your home game mean you have excessive PC death in your home game (the one you completely control). 7 TPKs alone is excessive for any GM, even if it was over 30 years. I see a few possibilities.
- You are failing to adequately balance adventure challenge levels with the PC abilities.
- It is not possible to balance the game without occasional fudging (for and against PCs as needed).
- You are an evil GM who enjoys PC death and TPKs.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I see a few possibilities.
- You are failing to adequately balance adventure challenge levels with the PC abilities.
- It is not possible to balance the game without occasional fudging (for and against PCs as needed).
- You are an evil GM who enjoys PC death and TPKs. |
Its more i put a challenge there, its up to THEM to fight it or try to circumvent it, not to 'balance it to them' always..
Case and point the party in my adnd home game had several recent problems with ghouls and ghasts. Over 4 such encounters, they've lost 1 pc (scripted by his player as he dropped out since the group's gotten off steadily now) and 2 henchmen/1dmnpc that was an assigned party member (by the local lord, till the group got up to full roster)..
So later on after they had a Random Encounter with a group, it was ON THEM WHETHER they tracked the ghouls back to the lair where they suspected a lot more would be... They didn't have to go, they didn't have to fight.. and another PC fell..
It was on THEM whether they went into the lair.
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Jachra
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Do you exercise a lot of ambushes and "surprise! Roll to not die" things, Garkhal?
You might have a home group that appreciates that level of adversity, but it's a rare group that will.
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| Jachra wrote: | Do you exercise a lot of ambushes and "surprise! Roll to not die" things, Garkhal?
You might have a home group that appreciates that level of adversity, but it's a rare group that will. |
Exactly what I was thinking.
| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | I see a few possibilities.
- You are failing to adequately balance adventure challenge levels with the PC abilities.
- It is not possible to balance the game without occasional fudging (for and against PCs as needed).
- You are an evil GM who enjoys PC death and TPKs. |
Its more i put a challenge there, its up to THEM to fight it or try to circumvent it, not to 'balance it to them' always... |
OK, fair enough. For the sake of discussion, we'll add your fourth possibility, which is not quite evil GM. It seems to me you still have a very adversarial concept of the game. For you, it seems the purpose of gamemastering is to create adventures with challenges (which may or may not end up being too difficult for the PCs), and the players' purpose is to try to overcome them. Perhaps you imagine at least one possible way for the PCs to succeed for each challenge, and it is up to them to find it or another solution and survive. If you are not an evil GM actively trying to kill PCs, then maybe you are an apathetic GM who doesn't really care if the PCs succeed or not. To you, RPGs are games of luck and strategy, and the PCs either win or lose. If you and your players are happy with that kind of game then there is nothing wrong with it, but that is not what the RPG says the game is about, and that is not what the game is about for most gamers here.
To me, Star Wars is a collection of entertaining stories. For myself and lot of other gamers of this RPG I know, the purpose of this game is for the GM and players as a group to co-create entertaining stories. The GM and players are united in one common goal, and everyone "wins" if everyone has fun creating the stories. Of course, PCs will not and should not succeed at everything they try. That didn't happen with the main characters in the Star Wars movies, and that wouldn't make a good SW RPG campaign either. It would be boring. Good stories can involve the PCs succeeding and failing over the course of creating the stories. A campaign can have its ups and downs, but overall most campaign story arcs are going to have more PC successes than failures to reach the conclusion of the story. Good stories can even involve the occasional PC death. But even when the PCs fail, it isn't because the game was the players vs. the GM or the PCs vs. the adventure design. It's drama for the story. The rules of the RPG are there to help simulate the cinematic reality of the Star Wars films (and other media), for the sake of playing roles in the story. We want the rules to be as good as possible in the simulation, but it is part of the GM's role to judge when to bend the rules (both for and against the PCs) for the sake of the story.
garhkal, I feel you really need to step back and try to look at this game through the eyes the other gamers here, most of whom don't play the game for the same reasons you do. Your participation at this site can be valuable and I do appreciate it at times, but it seems like a lot of your posts are geared towards your own style of adversarial gaming. Please be advised that your game is not the norm. The game itself states the game is not meant to be played to "win" like other games of strategy and luck, so you should expect most other GMs and players of the game to take that to heart.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jachra wrote: | Do you exercise a lot of ambushes and "surprise! Roll to not die" things, Garkhal?
You might have a home group that appreciates that level of adversity, but it's a rare group that will. |
Other than one creature that does ambush (Trapper spider like large scorpion) no. Most of the other creature encounters they get into combat with are at a good bit of distance, and Both sides roll for surprise (as per the book).. Hell, 3 sessions ago they crested a hill saw a dozen orcs (led by a L3 orc fighter), and 5 of the orcs were surprised, while 3 of the party were...
| Quote: | If you are not an evil GM actively trying to kill PCs, then maybe you are an apathetic GM who doesn't really care if the PCs succeed or not. To you, RPGs are games of luck and strategy, and the PCs either win or lose. If you and your players are happy with that kind of game then there is nothing wrong with it, but that is not what the RPG says the game is about, and that is not what the game is about for most gamers here.
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Whill, its more that i see myself as a neutral GM, neither setting things up for them to succeed or fail, but whether they do so is on what they do, and how lucky they are...
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Cpkeyes
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Never actually. Through the years I've been playing tabletop, I have never lost a character.
Then again, I normally play the tank and make it so my character never gets hit and so purpose is to fight.
I have also never killed the PC, but that's mostly because they often roll well enough to avoid the people that can one-shot them or have really lucky rolls. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Bringing this thread back up, to go over 2 more character deaths.. (both SW).
First was a guy (fellow player, i was not the DM for this one), who's character is great with a Light saber, but is NOT A FORCE user. gets seen by the imps using it, so THEY all targeted him.. He couldn't dodge enough to avoid all the shots, got hit 5 times total (iirc). Wound, Wound, Mortal wound, Incap, and Death +13 were the damage rolls....
2nd, was a character flying in a Y-wing as my freighter's protection. Got rumbled into by a bunch of pirates (in their own Y-wings and two ghotrk 720s), i targeted the freighter, he went for the enemy fighters. Lost both shield die in the first round, then got hit by a proton torp... Went boom...
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