| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
|
 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:46 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Whill wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb, I appreciate your 1e expertise and willingness to assist, but that's five consecutive posts in this thread. Take a breath and let people catch up with you. |
Lot to say, and people don't like walls of text. So, I break it up and try to keep each post focused on one topic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | 1. Ignore the requirement for the player to decide whether or not to dodge before the attacker rolls. |
Don't forget the Relax! encouragement on page 8. Use common sense. If it happens in a game to roll a Dodge after an attack, then just do it and keep on going. Keep the game fun. Don't make the game boring with detail.
bislab says:
| Quote: | | Interpretation 1 - both sides roll for their actions - highest rolls goes first. But wait! If the NPCs go first and fire upon the PCs, the PCs have already rolled their actions so they can't drop dice when they declare a dodge. |
The problem here is that bislab had all of the players and NPCs roll first actions at the same time. He should have broken the combat into groups, taking only those who can effect each other.
Also, if it turns out that only one group is possible (as with one PC and one bad guy NPC), then the Dodge needs to be declared in the declaration phase.
PCs say that they'll fire at NPC.
NPC says he will fire at PC.
Then, PC clarifies, saying that he'll Dodge the NPC's attack.
| Quote: | Now consider the case of three characters stormtrooper A, Leia, and Han. Stormtrooper A declares a shot against Leia while Han declares a shot against the stormtrooper (hoping to drop the stormie before he can shoot Leia). If Han beats the stormtrooper's initiative and hits the stormie then the stormtrooper never gets his shot off and Leia doesn't have to declare a dodge (which means she doesn't have a penalty against any of her subsequent actions).
But the case of 2 opponents is similar so in the case of two opponents, why should either opponent have to declare a dodge before they know if their opponent actually gets a shot off? Why penalize the character in a 2-person encounter when the character in a 3-person encounter is not so penalized? |
I don't agree with this at all.
This is a good example of why (most likely) that Dodges were required to be declared in the Declaration phase of the combat round in the Rules Upgrade.
Your Declaration Phase is this: Stormtrooper A declares a shot against Leia while Han declares a shot against the stormtrooper (hoping to drop the stormie before he can shoot Leia).
There's no psychic connection between Leia and Han (unless she's using a Force Power, which is an entirely different set of circumstances). Leia has to declare her actions based on what she knows at this point. She knows that Han is firing at the trooper (and she knows Han's Blaster skill), and she knows the trooper is firing at her.
It's up to Leia whether to declare a Dodge here or not.
Here's the neat part: Under First Edition rules, Leia doesn't have to declare a Dodge in the Declaration Phase, but she can still use a Dodge in Segment One if she wants.
All she has to do is tell the GM that she will Dodge and attack before the attack dice are thrown.
So, Segment One could play out like this--
Han fires at stormtrooper.
Stormtrooper fires at Leia.
Leia fires at stormtrooper.
If Leia's attack roll is higher than the trooper's (we're assuming Han did not hit), then she does not penalize her shot--and she can still Dodge the trooper's attack.
| Quote: | | 2. Require both shooters to choose whether or not they will dodge before determining whose shot goes first. |
This is not necessary, as the rule states that Dodge is a Reaction skill and can be implemented at anytime before the attack dice are thrown.
The PCs can risk it, like I show Leia doing, above.
bislab says:
| Quote: | Interpretation 2 - as the GM declared that the PCs were being shot at, the PCs who chose to dodge must state so before they roll their actions to see who goes first. As the rules state that you must declare the dodge before the enemy rolls to hit, this would make sense as both sides are rolling at the same time.
So....which of the two interpretations is correct or should it be done another way entirely? |
Entirely a different way, as I've shown in my posts.
Under First Edition Rules, Dodge does not have to be declared in the Declaration phase.
The example above--
Han shooting at stormtrooper.
Stormtrooper shooting at Leia.
What should Leia do?
The best thing to do is just declare Leia's actions AND DON'T DECLARE THE DODGE.
If Leia wants to Dodge, she can. As soon as the GM starts to figure range and difficulty for a shot against Leia, all the player has to do is say, "Leia is Dodging this shot."
And, it's done. No declaration needed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bislab wrote: | | I don't find this problematic at all. |
Then go with option #2.
| Quote: | | oy. I think if so many illustrations of initiative need to be given there is something wrong with how it is spelled out in the rules. |
I think the 1E initiative rules are a little odd. Undoubtedly there was some dissatisfaction with the rules or the designers wouldn’t’ have tried out other initiative systems in rules upgrades and in new versions.
With some rules oddities I think it helps to keep in mind the rules are trying to facilitate a play experience that is similar to what we see in the movies. This leads to some odd things. For example the entire notion of a reaction dodge to a blaster shot is a little odd. Realistically you can’t react to something that fast, especially after the shooter has decided to shoot. So what we have is movie logic, not real world logic. Characters can dodge blaster shots because that’s more or less what we see characters do in the movies (or the shots kind of just swerve around the heroes).
Following movie logic is central to my justification for option #1 that I outlined. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just to say....
I love the First Edition initiative rules. They require a very small learning curve, simply because they are not like what people are used to using in RPGs. But, in play, it's quick and easy and awesome--once you get the hang of it.
...And, it's very fast because there is no initiative roll. Your throw for your action serves double duty as initiative and as the skill roll.
With First Edition initiative, a character is faster with the skills where he has a lot of expertise. And, the character is slower in areas where he is not so skilled.
In Second Edition (and most other RPGs), the one initiative roll makes the character either fast or slow, no matter what the character does.
Therefore, in 1E, a gunslinger with a high blaster skill is likely to get the drop on you and shoot before anybody else. But that same gunslinger, with a low Brawling skill, won't be so quick to act as some more trained fighters in a hand to hand fight.
I like that about 1E. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bren wrote: | | Then go with option #2. |
Or, he can go as I outlined above, using the rules as written, not declaring Dodge at all, but still using Dodge if needed.
| Quote: | | With some rules oddities I think it helps to keep in mind the rules are trying to facilitate a play experience that is similar to what we see in the movies. This leads to some odd things. For example the entire notion of a reaction dodge to a blaster shot is a little odd. Realistically you can’t react to something that fast, especially after the shooter has decided to shoot. So what we have is movie logic, not real world logic. Characters can dodge blaster shots because that’s more or less what we see characters do in the movies (or the shots kind of just swerve around the heroes). |
This is quite true. I had a lot of trouble with this when I first started playing D6 SW. I tried to make the rule too logical. How could a character Dodge an attack that the character doesn't even know is coming?
Then, after a time wrestling with this, I realized what you've just said. The game is trying to make the PCs into heroes like Han, Leia, and Luke (or some version of hero--maybe not as heroic as the BIG THREE).
I got along better with the Dodge rule once I stopped thinking about it as a true Dodge and starting realizing that it was just a heroic method of making the target number harder. It's no different than a special "Hero Point" that can be used on some occasions.
When Greedo fired at Han, you didn't see him move hardly at all (in the version where Greedo fires first). How does Greedo miss from about a meter away, sitting across the table?
Mechanically speaking, Han used Dodge. Greedo missed. Han killed him.
Segment 1.
Greedo rolls highest on his blaster attack, has initiative, and attacks.
Han says he's Dodging Greedo's show, rolls his Dodge, and adds it to Greedo's difficulty.
Greedo misses because of the Dodge (where he would have hit easily had Han not Dodged).
Then, with a -1D penalty on his Blaster check (because he did the Dodge), Han easily fires and kills Greedo.
Too bad Greedo didn't have a good Dodge skill.
In my mind, Dodge doesn't have to mean (but can mean--whatever is dramatic) that the character drops to the floor or swings around a corner. It only means that the abstract difficulty number is harder. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bislab
Cadet
Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 7
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Or, he can go as I outlined above, using the rules as written, not declaring Dodge at all, but still using Dodge if needed. |
Rules As Written ALSO states that you MUST declare your dodge BEFORE the attacker rolls to see if they hit. Since everyone is rolling right NOW and this roll ALSO determines who goes first, to me, Rules As Written says you MUST declare your dodge right now.
Elsewhere it was also posted that my description should have been broken up into multiple encounters and not an over-all initiative - I disagree. All three persons engaged actions will influence the other two, so we must find out 'who shoots first' among the whole group.
Anyways, I feel like this is getting circular. I've got a group together, we'll get a few games under our belt and I'll try each of the responses at the table to see how they 'feel' to myself and the group. We record our game sessions and put them out on a podcast as well, if anyone cares to hear how the games go I can post links. Thanks guys! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bislab wrote: | | Rules As Written ALSO states that you MUST declare your dodge BEFORE the attacker rolls to see if they hit. Since everyone is rolling right NOW and this roll ALSO determines who goes first, to me, Rules As Written says you MUST declare your dodge right now. |
No sir. That's not correct, if using First Edition straight out of the rulebook.
I outlined this above, but I will show you the difference. Let's use Bren's example where a Stormtrooper is shooting at Leia, Han is shooting at the Stormtrooper, and Leia is deciding to either Dodge and fire at the Stormtrooper, or just fire at the trooper.
LEIA DECLARES DODGE & FIRE
In this case, Segment 1 would look like this--
Stormtroopers rolls attack at Leia.
Han rolls attack at Stormtrooper.
Leia rolls Dodge and rolls blaster attack (because the rules allow an action with a Dodge in the same segment), and Leia is rolling her Dodge and Blaster skill at -1D because of the multiple action penalty.
LEIA DOES NOT DECLARE DODGE--SHE DECLARES ATTACK ONLY
In this case, Segment 1 would look like this--
Stormtroopers rolls attack at Leia.
Han rolls attack at Stormtrooper.
Leia rolls blaster attack with no penalty.
The above has no order. The player playing Leia can roll before the GM rols for the trooper, and vice versa.
As soon as the GM picks up the dice to roll for the Stormtrooper, Leia can say that she is using her Dodge against the attack. She can do it at any time. Dodge does not have to be declared.
Dodge is then rolled at a -1D penalty (because Leia has already taken her action this segment with the Blaster shot).
| Quote: | See the definition of Reaction Skills, page 12.
"...You don't have to declare their use at the beginning of a combat round--you can use them whenever you need to." |
DIVIDING THE COMBAT INTO GROUPS
bislab said:
| Quote: | | Elsewhere it was also posted that my description should have been broken up into multiple encounters and not an over-all initiative - I disagree. All three persons engaged actions will influence the other two, so we must find out 'who shoots first' among the whole group. |
Well then you do agree. The grouping comment wasn't a rule. It's a managing device that I have found helps a GM play out the combat round from my experience with the game.
If everyone in the scenario can effect everyone else, as with the Han-Leia-Stormtrooper scenario, then you only have one group.
But, if you've got a situation where PC 1 attacks Stormy 1. PC 2 runs to the speeder. PC 3 fires at Storm 2.
And, Stormy 1 fires at PC 1. Stormy 2 fires at PC 3.
Then, it is easiest to run this combat in two groups.
First, allow PC 2 to complete his run since no other character can effect his action.
Second, go to Group 1, where PC 1 and Stormy 1 are firing at each other and resolve that.
Third, go to Group 2, where PC 3 and Stormy 2 are firing at each other, and resolve that.
By breaking the combat into groups like this, you are dealing with, at most, two initiative rolls at one time (in this encounter). That makes it easy and quick to resolve the entire combat segment with five characters-instead of rolling five action dice and trying to figure who goes first.
| Quote: | OK, Stormy 2 rolled the highest, so he fires at PC 3.
Then PC 2 makes his run.
PC 1 fires at Stormy 1.
PC 3 fires at Stormy 2.
Stormy 1 fires at PC 1.
That's a mess! It's much easier to break the combat down into groups, as I've shown. The GM can do this after he's heard the Declarations of each PC. Once he knows their actions, he can make groups of characters that can effect each other. Sometimes there will be only one Group. Sometimes, you'll have more. |
So, I've found grouping to be very helpful. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bislab
Cadet
Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 7
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
No sir. That's not correct, if using First Edition straight out of the rulebook.
|
pg 14 under Dodges 'You must decide whether or not you're dodging before the attacker makes his skill roll' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bislab wrote: | | Quote: |
No sir. That's not correct, if using First Edition straight out of the rulebook.
|
pg 14 under Dodges 'You must decide whether or not you're dodging before the attacker makes his skill roll' |
Yes sir, that is correct. It does say that, and what I said did not conflict with that rule. I'll do my best to explain the Dodge rule in the core rulebook.
Page 12 tells us that you do not have to declare a reaction roll, ever. Page 14 tells us that a Dodge must be rolled before the attack against the character.
It's confusing because we are talking about segment 1. It's more clear if you think of segment 2. In the example with the Trooper shooting at Leia, Han shooting at the trooper, and Leia deciding whether to Dodge or to shoot, Leia has to declare her actions for the entire round. She doesn't have to declare Dodge in the second segment--just like she doesn't have to declare Dodge in the first segment. Leia can use the Dodge anytime anyone fires at her at anytime during the combat round.
So, in the Declaration Phase, Leia will declare that she's shooting at the trooper.
And, Segment 1 can play out like this.
Leia, before the trooper attacks, rolls Dodge at full dice, then takes her shot in this same segment at -1D (because now she has two actions and can Dodge and do one action in the same segment). Notice how it would play out the same in segment two.
The Trooper rolls his attack.
Han rolls attack.
If you are a nice GM, you can allow Leia to see Han's attack first, before she decides to use the Dodge. There's no rule against this because Dodges don't have to be declared. Somebody has to roll first. You might as well let Leia be a hero and know the information before she decides to roll her Dodge or not.
So...
Han rolls attack.
Leia thinks Han might miss, so she rolls Dodge (at full dice, no penalty) before the trooper rolls, and she rolls her attack at -1D.
Trooper rolls his attack.
Or...
Han rolls attack.
Leia thinks Han will hit with his high roll, so she decides not to Dodge at this time and rolls her attack at full dice, no penalty.
Trooper rolls his attack.
The bottom line with Dodge is that it doesn't have to be declared (page 12), and it does have to be used before an attacker throws his dice (page 14).
Therefore, Leia can always throw her Dodge before the trooper attacks her, but she doesn't have to declare it. That means that either Leia or Han must roll first, and Leia always gets to roll Dodge before the trooper.
The game is played out as I have outlined above.
Does that make sense?
Here's another way that Segment 1 could be played.
Leia rolls her attack at full dice. After she sees her own attack roll, but before the trooper can roll, she can decide to roll her Dodge. If she rolls Dodge now, the Dodge is rolled at -1D (in the above examples, it was Leia's attack that had the penalty). In this manner, Leia can decide to penalize either her Dodge or her Blaster attack.
Trooper rolls.
Han rolls.
I'm hoping that's making sense now.
The thing to remember is that Dodge does not have to declared--it can be rolled anytime the player wishes to roll it for his PC. Because the first segment is often about someone shooting at you, the first thing a PC will often do is roll a Dodge, at full dice, even though the player declared another action.
If you've got more questions, I'll be happy to answer. Or, if this is not clear, ask a question, and I'll do what I can to illuminate the Core Rules. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
One way to make this easy with the players is, if they do declare the Dodge (they still don't have to), don't count the Dodge as an action for the multiple action penalty.
For example, it's easy for the Declaration Segment to go like this....
GM: You hear the crunch of a branch underfoot. Quickly you turn, and you see a Scout Trooper aiming his weapon at Leia.
Han: My weapon is out! I'm blasting him!
Leia: I'm blasting him, too! And, I'll Dodge his attack, to boot!
Count the above as if Leia had not declared the Dodge, because she really doesn't have to. She can use it anytime she wants, and she always rolls the Dodge before her attacker. That's the rules.
So, ignoring the Dodge as a declared action, but knowing that Leia will throw the Dodge before the trooper attacks, the GM counts Leia's declaration as if she just declared the single Blaster Shot. And, the GM knows to hold off on the Scout Trooper's attack until after Leia has rolled her Dodge.
This is just an easy way of doing things to play out the rules as written. Your Dodge in a declaration doesn't count against multiple actions.
But...when the Dodge is used, every action after its used is penalized by the multiple action rule...just like I showed in the post above.
ANOTHER BUT DIFFERENT METHOD
Or, if you don't like that, try this...
Go through the Declaration Segment normally. Players shouldn't declare Dodges.
Then, as we move into Action Segment 1, the first thing the GM calls for is Dodges.
GM: Does anybody want to Dodge? Dodges, please? Roll your Dodges? No Dodges? Ok, then, Han roll your attack....
This way, Dodges are always rolled before attacks, and players do not declare Dodges.
At the start of each Segment, call for Dodges. Roll them if needed. Move on with the segment if not.
WHAT I DO IN MY GAMES...
I never worry about Dodges, and I don't call for them. It's the player's responsibility to say when their character will Dodge.
If a player declares a Dodge, then I treat it as "no declaration," just as I explained at the top of this post. The player saying it just alerts me to not be so quick with the dice (as I roll NPC attacks behind a screen, not out in the open).
I don't call for Dodges at the start of the action segment because it takes away from the drama. I try to keep my description of the events happening around the player very lively. So, I actually prefer the Dodge mentioned in the declaration phase, but I'll also easily incorporate the Dodge if the player interjects into my narrative.
Me: (Seeing Han's roll) Han swings about and fires! The blast zooms past the trooper head and slams into a tree, setting its bark on fire! The trooper, with his blaster rifle at his should--
Leia: I'm Dodging! I"m Dodging!
Me: Ok, Leia, roll your Dodge. (Seeing the result, I continue) --and the trooper squeezes off a shot. Leia leans left, her own blaster in her hand--the trooper's blaster bolt sizzling past her--as she squeezes her own grip. Leia roll your attack.
I try to keep a strong narrative going, making the action play out in the mind's eye of the player, as if the character were living through an exciting Star Wars story. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
@bislab
One last thing about Dodges. I actually really like the way Dodges play out in the First Edition rules, but they're not always everybody's cup of tea.
You may want to look at the altered Combat Round provided in the Rules Upgrade to First Edition. You can find those four pages HERE.
I don't really like the Upgrade. I think it makes the Dodges too finnicky---too fiddley. But, who knows, they might be right up your alley.
Going a step further, you might want to check out the combat round in the Rules Companion, too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
