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bislab
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 Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:39 pm Post subject: Initiative in Star Wars Classic Adventures/1st edition |
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I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how initiative is supposed to work in SW Classic Adventures/1st edition.
From what I can determine, dropping a D from actions in the round only happen if you have multiple actions in the round?
Example: GM Description: player group and villains meet across a courtyard, there is no surprise both sides are looking to do battle. In this case initiative is important as the actions of one side will affect the actions of the other. players declare their actions: shooting, ducking for cover, running, ect. GM declaration that the NPCs will be firing on the characters. Now here is where it gets tricky as it is important to know who goes first....
Interpretation 1 - both sides roll for their actions - highest rolls goes first. But wait! If the NPCs go first and fire upon the PCs, the PCs have already rolled their actions so they can't drop dice when they declare a dodge.
Interpretation 2 - as the GM declared that the PCs were being shot at, the PCs who chose to dodge must state so before they roll their actions to see who goes first. As the rules state that you must declare the dodge before the enemy rolls to hit, this would make sense as both sides are rolling at the same time.
So....which of the two interpretations is correct or should it be done another way entirely? |
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: Initiative in Star Wars Classic Adventures/1st edition |
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| bislab wrote: | | So....which of the two interpretations is correct or should it be done another way entirely? |
I think neither is correct. Let's look at the example in the rules on page 13. In the example, no one dodged, but we'll add that in after.
| Quote: | | Jana (blaster skill of 5D+2) and Roark (blaster of 5D+1) both shoot at each other; the difficulty number for each shot is 15. Jana's roll is 19; Roark's is 17. Jana gets her shot off first (because 19 is greater than 17). |
Roark decides to dodge to try and avoid being hit. He rolls his dodge with -1D for his declared action that round of one shot. If he is hit despite his dodge, he is at least stunned (since this is First Edition) and he loses the rest of his actions for that round so it doesn't matter what his to-hit roll was.
If he is not hit because of his dodge, then his to-hit roll is the 17 he rolled earlier. That is higher than the 15 difficulty so Jana would be hit. Now Jana can try to dodge with a -1D due to her shot. If she succeeds we have two misses. If she fails, she is stunned (or worse). |
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Whill
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bislab
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:17 am Post subject: Re: Initiative in Star Wars Classic Adventures/1st edition |
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| Whill wrote: | | bislab wrote: | | Initiative in Star Wars Classic Adventures/1st edition |
Welcome to the Pit, bislab! |
Thank you! |
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bislab
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:22 am Post subject: |
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Bren, thanks for the feedback but that still doesn't quite answer things for me. I'm taking this from 'Classic Adventures':
'Dodges are reaction skills; you don't have to declare dodges at the beginning of each combat round, and you can dodge and take another action in the same segment. You must decide whether or not you're dodging BEFORE THE ATTACKER MAKES HIS SKILL ROLL. You can't wait to see whether he hits before deciding....'
So in my example: no one is surprised, we are rolling for first segment actions and to see who goes first. The PCs KNOW the NPCs are shooting at them. Since the NPCs roll IS their shooting roll, don't the PCs have to state before they roll that they are dodging? This way it affects first segment initiative. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Initiative in Star Wars Classic Adventures/1st edition |
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| bislab wrote: | | I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how initiative is supposed to work in SW Classic Adventures/1st edition. |
I wrote an example here a while back.
CLICK HERE.
There is no separate roll for initiative. Allow every character to declare actions for the round and then roll their first action. The highest roll for the action goes first.
Simple Example:
GM sets the stage: "As you turn the corner, you see two stormtroopers coming down the corridor toward you. They obviously see you and pull their weapons to the ready. Both fire at you."
PC 1 (declares his action for the round): "I'll fire twice at the left trooper!"
PC 2 (declares his action for the round): "I'll draw my blaster from my holster and fire once at the right trooper."
SUMMARY: So, we've got two Rebel PCs turning a corner and seeing two Stormtroopers walking towards them. Range is Medium. Both Troopers fire once--the left one firing at PC 1, and the right one firing at PC 2.
PC 1 already has his weapon out and he fires twice, both shots at the left trooper. This will take two segments.
PC 2 is drawing his DL-44 from a hip holster. That's -1D, but drawing and firing can happen in one segment. So, all of PC 2's actions will happen in segment one.
SEGMENTS: The game is played out in segments. First, the GM sets up the situation and tells the players what they see as the combat situation begins. Then, the players declare what they want their characters to do. Each action the players take requires a segment.
The GM plays out the combat in segments. In this case--
Segment 1: Left trooper fires at PC 1, and PC 1 fires at the Left troopers.
Also Segment 1: Right trooper fires at PC 2, and PC 2 draws his weapon and fires at the right trooper.
Segment 2: PC 1, if he's still able to act after the first segment, fires his second shot at the left trooper (if necessary--if the trooper is still a target).
PLAY IT OUT:
We first play out the first segment, where this is happening...
Right Trooper fires at PC 1. PC 1 fires at Right Trooper.
Left Trooper Fires at PC 2. PC 2 fires at Left Trooper.
You need to figure initiative between both sets. There is no separate roll. The Right Trooper's attack is rolled by the GM. PC 1 roll his blaster attack at the Right Trooper.
The higher roll is taken first. Remember that the Trooper's roll is penalized because of the Trooper's armor. Also remember that PC 1's shot is at -1 D because he is taking two actions this round, firing twice (once this segment, and once in the next segment).
RESULT
Let's say that the Right Trooper rolls higher than PC 1. Even if the shot is only a stun, PC 1 is done for the round. PC 1 does not get his declared actions. That's because he was shot before he could act, and the result of the shot could be a stun or worse.
With PC 2, the situation is almost the same. We've got Trooper 2 firing at PC 2. And, we've got PC 2 drawing his weapon and firing once at Trooper 2.
We need to determine who fires first. Again, there is no initiative throw. Initiative is given to the character with the highest attack roll.
The GM rolls for Trooper 2's attack. Remember to consider the armor penalty.
Likewise, player 2 rolls the attack for PC 2. Remember to take a -1 D penalty on the attack because PC 2 is drawing his weapon.
RESULT
In this case, let's say that PC 2 rolls higher, so PC 2's shot happens first. But, the roll is so low it results in a miss.
Now, Trooper 2 is still standing after PC 2's attack. So, we check to see if Trooper 2 hit PC 2, but that attack is also a miss.
Since there are no more actions between these two characters, that's the end of the combat round. Move on to combat round two. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:27 am Post subject: |
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First Edition Combat Round
Generally, your combat round should work like this...
1. The GM will set up the situation and give you an indication of what the enemy is doing through this description. Example: "The stormtrooper's head swings in your direction, and he brings up his blaster rifle to the firing position."
2. The players now tell the GM what they intend their characters to do. Each action will take one segment to play out.
3. The GM will play out the combat round in segments. All first actions are played out in the first segment. Then, all PC and NPC second actions will be played out in the second segment. Third actions, if any, are played out in the third segment, and so on. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb, it didn't seem like anything you wrote helped to answer the question that bislab asked.
| bislab wrote: | | 'Dodges are reaction skills; you don't have to declare dodges at the beginning of each combat round, and you can dodge and take another action in the same segment. You must decide whether or not you're dodging BEFORE THE ATTACKER MAKES HIS SKILL ROLL. You can't wait to see whether he hits before deciding....' |
OK. Now I get it. I see why you are asking. This is a result of the way 1E doesn't have a separate roll for initiative and its rules on stun. I see two options for how to handle it.
1. Ignore the requirement for the player to decide whether or not to dodge before the attacker rolls. This plays out like my example.
Here's my rationale. Dodge is a reaction skill which means a character chooses to dodge after they learn that someone is actually shooting at them.
Now consider the case of three characters stormtrooper A, Leia, and Han. Stormtrooper A declares a shot against Leia while Han declares a shot against the stormtrooper (hoping to drop the stormie before he can shoot Leia). If Han beats the stormtrooper's initiative and hits the stormie then the stormtrooper never gets his shot off and Leia doesn't have to declare a dodge (which means she doesn't have a penalty against any of her subsequent actions).
But the case of 2 opponents is similar so in the case of two opponents, why should either opponent have to declare a dodge before they know if their opponent actually gets a shot off? Why penalize the character in a 2-person encounter when the character in a 3-person encounter is not so penalized?
2. Require both shooters to choose whether or not they will dodge before determining whose shot goes first. But in this case if either character declares a dodge, they now have a -1D penalty against their shot (because in effect they are dodging first and shooting second) and they are less likely to win the initiative. (So I guess you have to decide "Do you feel lucky?") Let's see what that does to my example of Jenna and Roark.
Jana (blaster skill of 5D+2) and Roark (blaster of 5D+1) both shoot at each other; the difficulty number for each shot is 15. Roark declares that he will dodge Jana's shot. Janna decides not to dodge. Rork now has a -1D penalty on his dodge. Jana's roll is 19; Roark's (with the -1D penalty) is now a 13 instead of a 17. Jana gets her shot off first (because 19 is greater than 13).
Roark has declared a dodge to try and avoid being hit. He rolls his dodge with -1D for his declared action that round of one shot. If he is hit despite his dodge, he is at least stunned (since this is First Edition) and he loses the rest of his actions for that round so it doesn't matter what his to-hit roll was.
If he is not hit because of his dodge, then his to-hit roll is the 13 he rolled earlier. That is lower than the 15 difficulty his shot misses Jana. That's fortunate for Jana since she chose not to dodge.
It's worth noting that in 1E a reaction dodge roll is added to the difficulty of the target number. In the example above the target number was 15 so Roark only needs to roll a 5+ on his dodge to make Janna miss. Its also worth noting that if the target number was lower than 15 (like say a 10 for short range) Roark's decision to dodge would be a better tactical decision than was Janna's decision not to dodge. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb, it didn't seem like anything you wrote helped to answer the question that bislab asked. |
Yes, sir. That was intentional.
You had answered him. I thought I'd help further by helping to explain the flow of the combat round and the use of First Edition initiative. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Initiative in Star Wars Classic Adventures/1st edition |
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I guess I'll answer directly the questions in the OP....
| bislab wrote: | | From what I can determine, dropping a D from actions in the round only happen if you have multiple actions in the round? |
Usually, but there are certain situations, like drawing a weapon, or running, where only one action can be taken with a D penalty.
For example, drawing a weapon from a holsters imposes a -1D penalty, but drawing and firing is one action completed in one segment.
If a character drew and fired once, it would be played out in the first segment with the character taking a -1D penalty.
If the character drew and fired twice, then it would be played out in two segments. The first segment would see the character taking a -2D penalty for the drawing action and the first attack. Then, in segment two (if the character is able), he would be at -2D also.
| Quote: | | Example: GM Description: player group and villains meet across a courtyard, there is no surprise both sides are looking to do battle. In this case initiative is important as the actions of one side will affect the actions of the other. players declare their actions: shooting, ducking for cover, running, ect. GM declaration that the NPCs will be firing on the characters. Now here is where it gets tricky as it is important to know who goes first.... |
I think reading THIS POST will help you a great deal.
One of the problems new GMs have when using First Edition combat is that they look at the entire combat as a whole.
You don't need initiative unless a character's actions can be effected by another. For example, if a character runs to the speeder, and nobody chases him or fires at him (and the speeder doesn't move), then he gets there at the end of the round. Just complete the action and describe it in a dramatic way. Don't worry about initiative.
But, when a character can be effected by another, then who goes first is important.
In your example above, you need to know what the players are doing and what the NPCs are doing. You learn this information from the declaration phase.
This is the important part: As you go about the table, playing out the combat round, break the combat up into sections.
To keep things simple, let's say two PCs come upon two Stormtroopers.
| Quote: | Stormy 1 fires at PC 1 one time.
Stormy 2 fires at PC 2 twice.
PC 1 fires twice at Stormy 1.
PC 2 draws and fires once at Stormy 2.
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If this is the situation, you're not going to have each character roll their initiative, and then go in initiative order resolving the round. Yes, that's how its done in other games, but not in this one.
Here, you'll want to break the round down into groups. Then, play out with that group before moving on to the next groups.
What happens in segment one? Stormy 1 fires at PC 1, and PC 1 fires at Stormy 1.
Stormy 2 fires at PC 2, and PC 2 fires at Stormy 2.
You've got two groups. Resolve one group (it doesn't matter which since the groups do not effect each other), then resolve the other.
So...
Group 1 is Stormy 1 and PC 1 firing at each other. Whichever rolls the highest on their attack roll (which also serves as initiative) goes first.
Group 2 is Stormy 2 and PC 2 firing at each other. The same thing happens here. Whichever rolls the highest on their attack roll is given preference to consequences. If both roll and succeed in a hit, but the Stormtrooper has a higher attack roll, then the successful hit from PC 2 against the Stormy never happens.
Stormy rolls 22 and hits PC 2. PC 2 rolls 17 and hits the Trooper.
Stormy has the initiative.
Damage for Stormy is rolled, and PC 2 is stunned. Therefore, PC 2 goes down and can have no more actions for the round.
PC 2's attack roll never happens--the roll was changed to just an initiative roll. It did not represent a blaster attack (because the PC 2 was not standing and was stunned and could not make an attack).
Does that make sense to you?
It's a little different way of doing things, I suspect, than what you are used to. But, once you get used to it, I think that you'll agree that it is quite fun and exciting. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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It's risky to declare more than one action. Besides the multiple action penalty that applies to all of your actions in a round, if you get shot, even stunned, then you lose any more planned actions that you might have had.
For example, if you draw your DL-44 and shoot three times, you are -4D on each shot. That's -1D for having to draw, and -1D cumulative for three extra actions.
You have to be a pretty damn good shot to overcome that penalty.
Plus, your Dodge becomes less and less useful at the end of the round if you have a strong penalty.
And, there's always the risk that you will be hit. Even a stun ends your actions for the round. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Initiative in Star Wars Classic Adventures/1st edition |
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I think these points were already made, but just to be clear...
| bislab wrote: | | Interpretation 1 - both sides roll for their actions - highest rolls goes first. But wait! If the NPCs go first and fire upon the PCs, the PCs have already rolled their actions so they can't drop dice when they declare a dodge. |
Actions taken before a Dodge do not suffer the extra penalty.
So...If a PC acts in segment 1 with the PC's first action, and then, in segment 2, the PC Dodges, it is only actions in segment two and beyond that suffer the Dodge penalty.
Example: PC 1 declares 2 shots. He is -1D on both shots. Shot one happens in Segment 1 and Shot two happens in Segment 2.
As the round plays out, PC 1 takes his first shot, at -1D penalty, in Segment 1. Then, at the end of Segment 1, a Stormtrooper targets PC 1, and PC 1 decides to Dodge.
First off, the Dodge is at -2D because the character is not taking three actions in the round: two shots and a Dodge.
Second, the Dodge and the second shot are done at -2D (even though the first shot was done at -1D in Segment 1. What's done is done. We don't go back and change it.)
Remember: Dodges are good for an entire segment. Dodges are good for every attacker in that segment. But, if a character wants to Dodge again in another segment, then that's another action, with another -1D penalty added to the rest.
At a point, the penalties will make the Dodge ineffective. A person with Dodge 4D can only take up to -3D in penalties before Dodge is the same as the straight range number.
| Quote: | | Interpretation 2 - as the GM declared that the PCs were being shot at, the PCs who chose to dodge must state so before they roll their actions to see who goes first. |
If you are playing straight out of the First Edition Core Rulebook*, this is not true. Dodges can be used as a Reflexive action. As soon as the character is attacked, then the Dodge can be used.
Some GMs rule that Dodges can only be used if the character is aware of the attack, though the straight rule is that a Dodge can be used any time an attack is made against the character (awareness doesn't enter into the rule at all).
This is one way that you can make the game more deadly.
I chose to run the rule as written. Even if a light footed Twi-lek sneaks up on a PC and fires at the PC point blank in the back, I would allow the PC to use Dodge, unaware of the attacker, because that better simulates the heroics of the movies--the hero dodging out of the way at the last second (or even Han Solo not moving at all, but Greedo missing him, from across the table). That kind of stuff is STAR WARS!
Dodges add to the attackers difficulty number, but there are some restrictions on Dodges. They are subject to the multiple-action rule, so if you use them late in the round, after taking some actions, you will decrease the effectiveness of the Dodge.
Also, Dodges are good against every attacker in a segment, but Dodges expire after the segment in which they are used. You've got to roll a separate Dodge action in each segment where you want to Dodge.
*First Edition has some rule changes that come in the four page Rules Upgrade and the Rules Companion supplement that changes when Dodges are declared. I prefer First Edition straight out of the book. It's easy and quick. And, I don't want my players to have to pre-think where their Dodges will be. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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DODGES FROM THE PLAYER'S PERSPECTIVE
As our sample character, let's use Roark Garnet from page 8 of the 1E Core Rulebook.
Roark is in a cantina on Tatooine when he feels a tap on his shoulder. He turns around, and there are three of Jabba's thugs. Roark owes the slug money, and Roark is behind on his payments. The smuggler is so far behind that Roark know that Jabba will probably try to make an example of the smuggler with these thugs. Blaster fire is imminent.
All three thugs already have their weapons out. Range is Short. Roark has his DL-44 holstered on his leg.
Roark knows that all three are going to fire at him, if he lets them. Roark has Blaster 5D+1, and he's got to draw. Roark declares that he will Dodge, draw, fire, and fire at the right and middle thug.
(Remember that the decision to make the Dodge must be announced the enemy attack roll is made against you.)
All three thugs will fire twice at Roark.
SEGMENT 1: Roark Dodges, draws, and fires at the right thug.
All three thugs fire at Roark.
For the Dodge, Roark rolls 1D +1 (Roark's Dodge of 4D+1 with a -3D penalty for drawing and three actions of Dodge, fire, fire), and then adds to that to 10, getting a Dodge total of 18. Each thug must roll 15+ to hit Roark.
Roark rolls his attack that the right thug. He rolls 2D+1 (Blaster 5D+1 -3D) looking for 10+ to hit and rolls a 6 total. Which means he misses Thug 1.
Thug 1 fires and rolls a 13.
Thug 2 fires and rolls a 11.
Thug 3 fires and rolls a 5.
So...what happened?
You determine that by looking at the throws.
18. First, Roark spins out of the way (this is his Dodge).
13. Thug 1 fires, and the blaster bolt sizzles through the spot where Roark was standing. Normally, this would have been a hit except for Rorak's quick move.
11. Thug 2 fires, and the same thing happens. He would have hit Roark if the smuggler hadn't dodged.
6. Roark spun around, drew his massive DL-44, and went POW!! But, the movement threw off his aim, and the bolt went between his two targets, not hitting either.
5. Thug three squeezed his trigger last and shot over Roark's head. A miss.
And now...we move into Segment Two...
Note that Roark won't Dodge this segment, or at any other time during the round, because it will not benefit him. Using Dodge again would be another action, with another -1D penalty, which reduces the Dodge skill to no benefit. From here on out, this round, Roark will use straight range numbers (10+ at Short Range).
Roark will fire at the middle Thug, as he declared at the beginning of the round.
All three thugs will take their second shots.
SEGMENT 2: Roark rolls a total 8 on his attack.
Thug 1 rolls 11.
Thug 2 rolls 7.
Thug 3 rolls 9.
So, what happens?
Thug 1 fires first. We roll damage and Roark is knocked back into the counter and falls to his knees, stunned. Roark cannot take his shot this round.
Both Thug 2 and 3 fire over Roarks head, their bolts exploding into the glass mugs behind the bar, raining glass down on Roark.
And, that's how we start combat round 2, with Roark on his knees and the three Thugs gunning at him.
The good news is that, since this is a new combat round, Roark can Dodge again--at full dice! And, he's going to try to run out the front of the cantina to his speeder.
Roark will be rolling his Dodge and trying to stand up on segment 1, then rolling his DEX (and maybe a Dodge) on segment 2 in order to run out of the cantina.
All three Thugs will take two more shots at him. |
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Whill
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bislab
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | OK. Now I get it. I see why you are asking. This is a result of the way 1E doesn't have a separate roll for initiative and its rules on stun. I see two options for how to handle it. |
Thank you! Yes I'm looking for input on this specific type of encounter, not a dissertation on how all initiative works (but I DO thank all those who responded with that information as I do find it useful).
| Quote: | 1. Ignore the requirement for the player to decide whether or not to dodge before the attacker rolls. This plays out like my example.
Here's my rationale. Dodge is a reaction skill which means a character chooses to dodge after they learn that someone is actually shooting at them. |
Yes, but that is sort of my point. In my GM description and in the phase where everyone tells what they wish to do in the round, I have stated that they are being shot at, hence they KNOW they are being shot at.
| Quote: | | Now consider the case of three characters stormtrooper A, Leia, and Han. Stormtrooper A declares a shot against Leia while Han declares a shot against the stormtrooper (hoping to drop the stormie before he can shoot Leia). If Han beats the stormtrooper's initiative and hits the stormie then the stormtrooper never gets his shot off and Leia doesn't have to declare a dodge (which means she doesn't have a penalty against any of her subsequent actions). |
I don't find this problematic at all. I would, as a GM:
only Leia must decide if she is dodging the shot as the example states she KNOWS she alone is being fired upon. She can take her chances that Han will take out the Stormtrooper first OR decide to dodge as part of her action. - again, I believe she would have to make that decision as she clearly knows she is being fired upon...right..now. Han need not declare any dodge because he is not being fired on at present, if later in additional segments he is fired upon, he can choose to dodge then. Same for the stormtrooper, he KNOWS he is being fired upon by Han, so he can either choose not to dodge (assuming Han is a poor shot) or take the dodge into consideration as a -D to his shot on Leah. This seems pretty straight forward to me doing it this way.
| Quote: | | But the case of 2 opponents is similar so in the case of two opponents, why should either opponent have to declare a dodge before they know if their opponent actually gets a shot off? Why penalize the character in a 2-person encounter when the character in a 3-person encounter is not so penalized? |
again here is where I say you know you are being shot at. You don't know if the shooter will be taken out before he does hit you, but you know you are being shot at, period. So do you take the chance and not dodge? See, this is where I don't like the examples I've been given so far. If you aren't penalized on your first action (and in my opinion you should be if you choose to consider the person who I have clearly stated is firing at you) just in case someone else takes care of the problem. Since there is no per segment initiative other than the actual skill roll involved, I don't think it's out of hand to say you should be penalized as your concentration IS either split between your action and keeping track of the person firing at you OR you choose to ignore the person firing at you and go about your action BUT you then do not get a chance to dodge the person who you KNEW was firing at you.
| Quote: | | 2. Require both shooters to choose whether or not they will dodge before determining whose shot goes first. But in this case if either character declares a dodge, they now have a -1D penalty against their shot (because in effect they are dodging first and shooting second) and they are less likely to win the initiative. (So I guess you have to decide "Do you feel lucky?") |
Yes THIS is how I feel the rules actually read!
oy. I think if so many illustrations of initiative need to be given there is something wrong with how it is spelled out in the rules. No offense meant, it's a fine game both in the original and REUP'd rules and I very much thank everyone who has responded. I'm not a new GM in the least, just new to THIS game. 'been gaming for over 40 years in many, many different systems and styles from the ultra crunch of things like Champions/Rolemaster to the 'pass the stick' story telling games currently in vogue.
I continue to welcome input in my thoughts, I'm not 'set' in doing things any particular way and like to see how other people handle this particular scenario I present. |
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