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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448
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 Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:01 pm Post subject: Obi-wan wanted to tell Luke |
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Check this out.
YouTube
Skip to 5:19
Watch the Revenge of the Sith snippet right after that one, too! |
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Sutehp
Commodore
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 1797
Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Damn, those are some serious daddy issues.
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Falconer
Commander
Joined: 08 Dec 2014
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I like to think Darth Vader was a clone of Anakin Skywalker. That way he could, indeed, have killed Luke’s father AND BE Luke’s father from a certain point of view. |
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Solo4114
Commander
Joined: 18 May 2017
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Falconer wrote: | | I like to think Darth Vader was a clone of Anakin Skywalker. That way he could, indeed, have killed Luke’s father AND BE Luke’s father from a certain point of view. |
Ah, head canon. I do love it.
That's an interesting idea.
My version of head canon is that Anakin willingly took to the Dark Side because he believed in the story that Palpatine sold him, which was that the Sith had been misunderstood and misrepresented throughout history. The Jedi, while once noble warriors, had lost their way and become callous to the needs of the galaxy. Only the Sith, through Palpatine, could bring order throughout the galaxy again.
Anakin, having witnessed such horrible, widespread destruction and pain during the Clone Wars, as well as the way that the Republic -- defended by the Jedi -- so casually threw away the lives of the clone troopers, decided that peace could only be achieved by embracing any means necessary, including brutality and repression. Padme, the Jedi, the Rebellion, all of them were obstacles in the way of this plan, so Anakin (now Vader, having taken up the mantle of the Sith) was willing to sacrifice them all.
Of course, much of this was a lie that Anakin told himself. In truth, he wasn't as comfortable with wholesale slaughter as he wanted to be; he was conflicted about it, having some shred of goodness left in him, in spite of all that he did. But he kept pursuing these ends, using them to justify the means by which he achieved them, almost in an effort to harden himself and his own resolve.
This tragedy would later be unwittingly repeated by his grandson, Ben... |
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Treefrog
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 190
Location: West Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Falconer wrote: | | I like to think Darth Vader was a clone of Anakin Skywalker. That way he could, indeed, have killed Luke’s father AND BE Luke’s father from a certain point of view. |
That's a funny coincidence, because in 2005 I cowrote a d20 Infinities sourcebook that had that as a major plot point......which goes to show that great minds do think alike.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Obi-wan wanted to tell Luke |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | Check this out.
YouTube
Skip to 5:19 |
All that really does is shift the primary blame for the lie from Obi-Wan to Yoda. Same end result. And leaving that Yoda line in wouldn't have made as much sense with Luke's conversation with Obi-Wan's ghost immediately following Yoda's death. "Why didn't I tell you? Weren't you listening? Yoda just told you why. I wanted to tell you the truth but Yoda made me lie to you." Yoda has said, "Not ready for the burden were you." Obi-Wan said that truth is subjective. It makes the most sense to me that Yoda and Obi-Wan were agreed on keeping the full truth from Luke, but that doesn't mean that Obi-Wan was happy about it.
| Falconer wrote: | | I like to think Darth Vader was a clone of Anakin Skywalker. That way he could, indeed, have killed Luke’s father AND BE Luke’s father from a certain point of view. |
Interesting idea. So is this your personal canon? That Darth Vader was created and he physically killed Anakin Skywalker, and then a vestige of Anakin's goodness in the clone caused him to save Luke and kill the Emperor? In your version did Yoda and Obi-Wan know about the clone, or did they think the clone was Anakin so made up the lie to tell Luke that just happened to better reflect the truth? Did Luke ever find out that Vader was a clone or did he believe that was his father that had died in his arms?
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Falconer
Commander
Joined: 08 Dec 2014
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:08 am Post subject: Re: Obi-wan wanted to tell Luke |
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| Whill wrote: | | Falconer wrote: | | I like to think Darth Vader was a clone of Anakin Skywalker. That way he could, indeed, have killed Luke’s father AND BE Luke’s father from a certain point of view. |
Interesting idea. So is this your personal canon? … In your version did Yoda and Obi-Wan know about the clone |
Yes; I have to explain that in my version of the pre-Yavin events, the Clone Wars happen circa 35 ABY during the youth of Kenobi (28 y.o.) and Skywalker (19 y.o.), and the Dark Times and the event of Darth Vader betraying them occurs sixteen years later. I realize this contradicts the PT and so won’t necessarily work with most peoples’ personal canon, but maybe you can take part of the theory, I don’t know. The Clone Wars of the PT suggest that only one guy was cloned, and it was called the Clone War because there were a lot of his clones running around. This ignores the more off-the-wall sci-fi possibilities that famous and powerful people could be cloned, and many of the OT characters could be clones or clone templates, and a lot of familial relationships could be strange and convoluted. As people have been pointing out since 1977, if there’s an OB1 there could be an OB2 and an OB3. (The ESB script even hints that the Emperor resembles him.) So, back to your question, yes, my version accepts literally that Darth Vader was a pupil of Ben’s who turned to evil, and Ben knew full well he was a clone because there were plenty of those running around.
| Whill wrote: | | and then a vestige of Anakin's goodness in the clone caused him to save Luke and kill the Emperor? |
Well, in my version, Darth had his own vestiges of goodness (after all, he “turned to evil” in the first place. He wasn’t created evil; some clone masters just needed pilots, so they cloned Skywalker, one of the best. (As Red Leader Dave says, “I met your father once when I was just a boy. He was a great pilot.”) Thou surely accepting Skywalker’s identity in his interactions with Luke at least partially led to him accepting that he could choose redemption.
| Whill wrote: | | Did Luke ever find out that Vader was a clone or did he believe that was his father that had died in his arms? |
I imagine he probably wondered about it after the Thrawn Campaign. Maybe wondered if he himself was a clone of Darth Vader, or if Darth Vader had gotten with Skywalker’s wife (Owen Lars’s sister? Or is Owen = ON, another clone?). I imagine he eventually made peace with the fact that it was all too convoluted to make sense of, and what matters is who he is and that he did the right thing by Darth. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Obi-wan wanted to tell Luke |
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Cool, Falconer. I like it! Thanks for sharing.
| Falconer wrote: | | I realize this contradicts the PT and so won’t necessarily work with most peoples’ personal canon, but maybe you can take part of the theory, I don’t know. |
Maybe others will, but I'm not going to "take" any of it for my personal canon. I can still be interested in other fans' divergences from film canon even if I wouldn't do that myself.
| Falconer wrote: | | The Clone Wars of the PT suggest that only one guy was cloned, and it was called the Clone War because there were a lot of his clones running around. This ignores the more off-the-wall sci-fi possibilities that famous and powerful people could be cloned |
In my SWU, the conflict shown in AotC and RotS is one of several "clone wars" (plural). In the film war and the other wars of my SWU, there were definitely clones of several different individuals, and from several different species. And regarding the "famous and powerful" category I've even got an army of General Grievous clones.
Where I diverge from you is in the cloning of Force-sensitive individuals. In the time of the classic trilogy Force use is fairly rare in the galaxy. I don't feel Force users would be so rare if it were easy to clone Force users. "Order 66? Who cares? We'll just replace the Jedi Order with their clones!" In my SWU, it is extremely difficult to produce perfect clones of Force-sensitives. (Perhaps the m-words actively sabotage it, ha ha.) Most die in fetal stages, and the ones that survive turn out to be crazy psychopaths like Joruus C'baoth, so usually end up being more trouble than they are worth. Maybe there is a greater chance at survival if the clones can be altered to not be Force-sensitive.
Also, if the main characters have a lot of clones, then I feel it takes away from the specialness of them. Of course there is nothing wrong with anyone having Force-clones in their SWU if they want. It's just my preference not to have that.
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