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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | The idea comes from what E. Gary Gygax wrote in the AD&D DMG. |
Ah yes, the AD&D DMG. TSR's plan to change D&D from a DIY tool set where GMs did their own thing into hard coded rules for regulating convention modules and trying to control 8-12 year old GMs. That was where D&D first started to go wrong. |
Wow. An army of people would disagree with you on that.
AD&D started me along the road of a life-long passion, as it did for many. I may never have discovered the Star Wars D6 game had it not been for AD&D.
But, again, we disagree.  |
For what its worth, you wouldn't have discovered AD&D if it had not been for OD&D. As far as numbers of people, yes there are far fewer people whose experience of Dungeons & Dragons dates back to the original OD&D rules. The early 1980s and AD&D were the hey dey of D&D's popularity. Lots of people were introduced to D&D via AD&D. So I don't doubt that lots more people are familiar with AD&D (and Gygax's pronouncements in it) than with OD&D (and Gygax and Arneson's pronouncements in it). None of that changes the difference nor my preference for one style over the other. I prefer the openness and reliance on rules interpretation and creation by the DM of OD&D as opposed to the rigid rules adherence and rules creation by TSR advocated in AD&D. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Urban Spaceman wrote: | I agree with Sutehp, but you know your players better than we do so if they are ok with that kind of stuff then it could be an interesting campaign.
Out of interest, how sure are you that they won't enjoy being the bad guys so much that they won't want to join the Rebellion? |
Heck they might enjoy it so much, they go to great lengths to hunt down and kill FELLOW imperials that look like THEY might be having thoughts of switching sides..
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Giant Tourtiere
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Joined: 26 Feb 2017
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Location: Ottawa, ON
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Urban Spaceman wrote: | I agree with Sutehp, but you know your players better than we do so if they are ok with that kind of stuff then it could be an interesting campaign.
Out of interest, how sure are you that they won't enjoy being the bad guys so much that they won't want to join the Rebellion? |
Heck they might enjoy it so much, they go to great lengths to hunt down and kill FELLOW imperials that look like THEY might be having thoughts of switching sides.. |
And then, you're playing Paranoia! 
FWIW I've never subscribed to the 'GM is god' thing. I think of myself as a facilitator. The players want to go on a cool adventure and I'm there to help make that happen. When a groups is working right they trust that if six stormtroopers show up, or thirty-six, that there's a good reason for it which is ultimately aimed at telling a fun story.
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Clever stratagems are quite beyond my powers, but if it is rank foolishness you require, I have no end of it. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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Joined: 07 Apr 2017
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Giant Tourtiere wrote: | | FWIW I've never subscribed to the 'GM is god' thing. I think of myself as a facilitator. The players want to go on a cool adventure and I'm there to help make that happen. When a groups is working right they trust that if six stormtroopers show up, or thirty-six, that there's a good reason for it which is ultimately aimed at telling a fun story. |
Excactly, which is allowing the GM to be the god of that universe.
I think that some people object to the in-your-face tone the phrase "GM as god" seems to have. It seems to say, "It's my way or the highway."
Which isn't true.
What it means is that everyone agrees that the GM has final say.
That's it.
You trust your GM to provide you with a good story, and if he rules differently than what you think should happen in the game, that you've got to finally accept his judgement after you've stated yours. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | I think that some people object to the in-your-face tone the phrase "GM as god" seems to have. It seems to say, "It's my way or the highway." |
You would have gotten less pushback had you simply said "the GM has the final say" rather than the hyperbolic "the GM is god." |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | I think that some people object to the in-your-face tone the phrase "GM as god" seems to have. It seems to say, "It's my way or the highway." |
You would have gotten less pushback had you simply said "the GM has the final say" rather than the hyperbolic "the GM is god." |
"GM is god" is an accepted term. Most long time RPGers know what is meant by it.
We've got enough political correctness in the world. I don't need to apply it to RP game terms, too. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | "GM is god" is an accepted term. Most long time RPGers know what is meant by it.
We've got enough political correctness in the world. I don't need to apply it to RP game terms, too. |
WTF does political correctness have to do with the discussion? |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | "GM is god" is an accepted term. Most long time RPGers know what is meant by it.
We've got enough political correctness in the world. I don't need to apply it to RP game terms, too. |
WTF does political correctness have to do with the discussion? |
"The GM has the final say," seems to me a watered down, politically correct version--not to hurt anyone's wittle feelings--of "The GM is god." |
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'm much more likely to trust a GM who takes into account his players' insights and feelings after they've had their say and then makes his decisions, rather than a GM who says "If you don't like it, you can always leave the campaign."
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Only some of it is for D6 Star Wars.
Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | I'm much more likely to trust a GM who takes into account his players' insights and feelings after they've had their say and then makes his decisions, rather than a GM who says "If you don't like it, you can always leave the campaign." |
You obviously haven't read my posts above. Just scanned them, I think? |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm going to have to let this "GM is god" thing go. Anything further that I would say on this topic is liable to sound too snarky or ad hominem for this forum. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I'm going to have to let this "GM is god" thing go. Anything further that I would say on this topic is liable to sound too snarky or ad hominem for this forum. |
Liable to sound...?
I think you already crossed that line.
But, hey, it's the internet. People are like that sometimes. |
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Sutehp wrote: | | I'm much more likely to trust a GM who takes into account his players' insights and feelings after they've had their say and then makes his decisions, rather than a GM who says "If you don't like it, you can always leave the campaign." |
You obviously haven't read my posts above. Just scanned them, I think? |
So you're referring to this post you made?
| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | You trust your GM to provide you with a good story, and if he rules differently than what you think should happen in the game, that you've got to finally accept his judgement after you've stated yours. |
Now you're contradicting yourself. You say with one breath that you take your players' concerns into account after saying that you want to spring a surprise campaign involving atrocities and other serious themes that might offend your players without having cleared it with them first.
So which is it? Are you taking your players' concerns into account when you just proclaimed that you want to spring possibly offensive themes on your players without prior warning?
You can't square that circle, Wajeb.
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Sutehp's RPG Goodies
Only some of it is for D6 Star Wars.
Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | I'm going to have to let this "GM is god" thing go. Anything further that I would say on this topic is liable to sound too snarky or ad hominem for this forum. |
Liable to sound...?
I think you already crossed that line.
But, hey, it's the internet. People are like that sometimes. |
I don't think I was too snarky or insulting for the forum. If you disagree feel free to complain to the powers that be. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | Now you're contradicting yourself. |
I'm not at all.
One time, I ran an extremely fun Top Secret/SI game. I called my players, one by one, and I didn't tell them anything about gaming. I said, "Hey, I need a big favor. I know that you're busy. I know that you've got work on Thursday, and I wouldn't ask if it were not extremely important. But, I need you to come up to my office tomorrow downtown to see me at noon. I can't tell you what it is about. All I can tell you is that it is important."
To a man, they all said that they'd be there. All wondered what was up and were willing to sacrifice for me.
Once they said yes, I told them that we were just roleplaying. That we're going to play a game--I didn't tell them what game--where they would be playing themselves. Of course, they were not required to go to my office on Thursday. That was just part of my game set-up.
On game night, we all sat down and created Top Secret/SI characters in their own image. Their character names were themselves. They literally crated TSSI versions of themselves.
I had car stats for each of their cars, and I had printed of real maps of the area downtown where my real work is.
I had a drawn plans of my real downtown office.
In the game, the guys all got together and drove downtown to meet "me". Turns out, through my work, I'd gotten into a pretty bad situation seeing something that I was not supposed to see, and as the PCs entered my floor, a helicopter leveled itself outside and began firing a Gatling machinegun, blowing out the windows on the 39th floor!
Men in black armor with assault rifles swung into the windows, and they started mowing down everyone.
My players had to get their PC butts out of there!
Man, that was a fun game. The discovery of what it truly was came across in a neat way to the players. Whomever they were, they were after me and now my friends. "I" got killed, shot to death, in the office. And, "I" died leaving a mystery--who were these people and what was it I had stumbled into at work.
The game took the PCs to San Francisco, where the players had to break into the NSA compound there. I remember this huge firefight we had when the bad guys caught up with them at a Walmart.
We figured how much money each of them could get their hands on overnight, before they fled the city for San Francisco. I think they had about $13,000 bucks or so--not being able to access the ATM or go to a bank--and the exact weapons that each of us had at our houses.
In the game, the married players had to take care of their wives and kids, putting them into hiding, as they tried to figure all this out.
They knew that they couldn't go to the police or the FBI. At the Walmart, they were there to buy gear--weapons and such--for their break in at the NSA compound. The bad guys caught up with them, and the firefight started inside the store and led out into the parking lot. Then, it turned into a chase where I used the chase rules and maps of the real streets in San Francisco that I had printed off of Google.
It was a great game.
I bet neither of you guys would have liked it.
We did, though. |
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