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MrNexx
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 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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See, I think of things like the Ewoks, or other races and cultures separated from Galactic Society, and figure they would have their own force traditions, many of which would be religious in nature. Those with strong spiritual feelings (the force sensitive) could learn to do magic (manipulate the force), and if their actions were "immoral" (i.e. dark side aligned, though there's no guarentee that they'd see it as bad), they'd become beholden to that power in many ways.
It tends to favor a dualistic, Manichean worldview, but I wouldn't doubt you'd see a number of societies dealing with this in all sorts of ways. The Galactic Monoculture would smooth over some of these differences, but not entirely.
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | It's not just other game systems. WEG SW has blindfighting, at least as a special ability some species have. Defel maybe? IIRC darkness gives a 4D penalty to fighting and blind fighting offsets that. I still think his perceptions go beyond that into the superhuman level, but just throwing this out there into the discussion. |
Yeah, Chirrut's sense are described in the RO novelization as "preternatural." I'm repeating myself, I know, but I'm more convinced than ever that Chirrut is an untrained (and very minor) Force-sensitive. This still fits in with all the Word of God confirmation that Chirrut is not a Jedi. I just can't see Chirrut doing what he did without some sort of Force-Sensitivity (minor though it might be) under the SWD6 rules.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: |
Hmm, this is also a possibility. I'm curious to see how one would home-rule that. Would such a skill fall under Dexterity or Perception? |
I would actually run it as a know skill. Diff would be based on the 'range' you wish to set for your Blind fighting.. If you are just going melee/brawl, and care not about anything further out, 5m - easy roll should be sufficient. Reduces penalties for fighting sightless by 3d..
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | I just can't see Chirrut doing what he did without some sort of Force-Sensitivity (minor though it might be) under the SWD6 rules. |
Hmm let me see, (s) melee combat: staff 9D+2, (s) melee parry: staff 10D+2, Brawling 10D+2 spends a Force Point while squaring off versus the Stormtroopers in the streets of Jheda. This bumps up his skills to (s) melee combat: staff 18D+4, (s) melee parry: staff 20D+4, Brawling 20D+4. Even if you give him a -4D penalty for being blind.
Which is probably way more than enough to beat the snot out of 6-8 Stormtroopers.
Keep in mind, during this scene he is concentrating on the sounds the troopers make, auditorily mapping the area. This would be some type of Special Ability, but I really don't think it ties to the Force, though it could
Another point I would make. If he is such a supporter of the Jedi, I mean after all he is a self-styled Guardian of the Whills. We have no idea if he was trained by them or this is a self-made title or one that ties into an older group that has been extinct a very long time. We also have no idea if he was born blind or lost his sight some time later.
If he was such a strong supporter of the Jedi and their core beliefs and was a Force Sensitive why was he never picked up by the Jedi and trained? He is 52 years old at the time Rogue One.
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | If he was such a strong supporter of the Jedi and their core beliefs and was a Force Sensitive why was he never picked up by the Jedi and trained? He is 52 years old at the time Rogue One. |
I mentioned in an earlier post the possibility that Chirrut was such a minor Force-Sensitive that he could have been relegated (like other Jedi trainees who don't make the cut) to the AgriCorps but he would up with the Guardians of the Whills instead for some reason or another. Just idle speculation on my part but it makes as much sense as anything else.
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | shootingwomprats wrote: | | If he was such a strong supporter of the Jedi and their core beliefs and was a Force Sensitive why was he never picked up by the Jedi and trained? He is 52 years old at the time Rogue One. |
I mentioned in an earlier post the possibility that Chirrut was such a minor Force-Sensitive that he could have been relegated (like other Jedi trainees who don't make the cut) to the AgriCorps but he would up with the Guardians of the Whills instead for some reason or another. Just idle speculation on my part but it makes as much sense as anything else. |
There are a lot of reasons he could have been Force-sensitive but didn't go through Jedi training. He could have been born outside the Republic like a certain chosen one we know. He could have been born into the Whills tradition. His parents could have refused to give up the child to the Jedi. Maybe the hospital he was born in flubbed the Midichlorian test or recorded the results incorrectly.
And yes, he could have been a youngling who never got chosen to be a padawan, but I have trouble seeing Chirrut as a wash-out. He's a master or what he does. So I feel the character works best as having never been a Jedi. It's a big galaxy. The Jedi don't hold a monopoly on Force-sensitivity.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
There are a lot of reasons he could have been Force-sensitive but didn't go through Jedi training. He could have been born outside the Republic like a certain chosen one we know. He could have been born into the Whills tradition. His parents could have refused to give up the child to the Jedi. Maybe the hospital he was born in flubbed the Midichlorian test or recorded the results incorrectly.
And yes, he could have been a youngling who never got chosen to be a padawan, but I have trouble seeing Chirrut as a wash-out. He's a master or what he does. So I feel the character works best as having never been a Jedi. It's a big galaxy. The Jedi don't hold a monopoly on Force-sensitivity. |
Heck, perhaps kids born to those who follow the "whills" are exempt from being taken or tested by the jedi order..
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Ninjaxenomorph
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| One of my favorite things about Rogue One is the ambiguity of Chirrut's abilities. |
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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It is my understanding that the Temple of the Whills has long been abandoned. Maybe for over a 1,000 years or more. We do know that the site is considered holy by practitioners of the Church of the Force (so freakin hate this idea so much). So it makes sense Chirrut would make a pilgrimage there.
Materials say the Guardians of the Whills were a religious order active on Jedha towards the end of the Age of Empire. This does not seem correct to me as the order is completely gone at this time. I think they may be referencing Chirrut and Baze Malbus. But again material is conflicting.
Baze Malbus is a former Guardian of the Whills who left the order and become a freelance assassin. That is quite a shift in occupations. As they were both Guardians of the Whills we can infer they probably had the same training and yet their skill sets in Rogue One are very different.
Baze is 53 years old and Chirrut 52 years old, both are born on Jedha.
Wookieepedia taking from the Visual Guide, "Chirrut Îmwe was a blind human male, with pale blue eyes, black hair and tan skin. Although he lacked Force abilities, Îmwe was a strong believer in it and the Jedi way, carrying a simple staff and traditional lightbow bowcaster, contrasting greatly with his partner's more pragmatic personality. His devotion to spirituality helped him overcome his blindness and become a formidable warrior."
In my mind this is what we can gather.
1. Guardians of the Whills protected the Temple of the Kyber/Whills.
2. Their traditional weapon was lightbow.
3. Force Sensitivity was not required to be a Guardian.
4. Sometime after 53 BBY the Guardians are forcibly disbanded.
5. Chirrut and Baze were both trained Guardians of the Whills.
6. Chirrut lost his sight but found spirituality and faith in the Force help him become overcome his blindness.
Thoughts?
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | In my mind this is what we can gather.
1. Guardians of the Whills protected the Temple of the Kyber/Whills.
2. Their traditional weapon was lightbow.
3. Force Sensitivity was not required to be a Guardian.
4. Sometime after 53 BBY the Guardians are forcibly disbanded.
5. Chirrut and Baze were both trained Guardians of the Whills.
6. Chirrut lost his sight but found spirituality and faith in the Force help him become overcome his blindness.
Thoughts? |
I think that is all certainly possible, but not necessarily all true.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | It is my understanding that the Temple of the Whills has long been abandoned. Maybe for over a 1,000 years or more. |
I don't think that is correct. "The protectors of the ancient Temple of the Kyber, the Guardians were forced to live on the streets when the Empire occupied Jedha in search of kyber crystals and stripped the Temple bare of its many treasures, where they nonetheless remained true to their beliefs by preaching to the citizens about the Force." The fact that the Guardians were protecting the Temple and forced by the Empire to live in the streets strongly implies they lived in the temple they were protecting, which would mean it wasn't abandoned. We don't know when the Empire occupied Jedha, but statement implies they occupied specifically for the purpose of searching for in the Temple and how long would it take to strip a temple? So it seems to me that the Temple was never abandoned and the Empire hasn't been there that long. We can narrow down your 53 BBY date to 19 BBY at the earliest, but it is most likely the Guardians of the Whills weren't forcibly disbanded until 1 or 0 BBY.
| Quote: | | Materials say the Guardians of the Whills were a religious order active on Jedha towards the end of the Age of Empire. |
Yep, that makes perfect sense to me.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | So it makes sense Chirrut would make a pilgrimage there. |
I don't think he ever left. He was only recently kicked out of the Temple and he was still hanging around the city.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | We do know that the site is considered holy by practitioners of the Church of the Force (so freakin hate this idea so much). |
Why do you hate this so much? The Holy City is based largely on Jerusalem, which is holy to multiple religions. The SWU would have have more religions than Earth with a much longer history for religions to evolve, interact with each other, diverge, converge, etc. What's to hate about two different non-Jedi religions both involving The Force being somehow related to each other or sharing holy sites?
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Last edited by Whill on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Why do you hate this so much? The Holy City is based largely on Jerusalem, which is holy to multiple religions. The SWU would have have more religions than Earth with a much longer history for religions to evolve, interact with each other, diverge, converge, etc. What's to hate about two different non-Jedi religions both involving The Force being somehow related to each other or sharing holy sites? |
Not the idea or location. I despise the idea of a Church of Force like I hate midichlorins. Maybe more.
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Whill
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Why? Non-Force-sensitive people who remember the lost Jedi Order and honor the tenets of the Jedi? What is so horrible about that idea? |
To me it sort of removes the mysticism of the Force. I always sort of felt like it was a part of the SWU that was an underpinning but few people gave it much credit. Treating it as a superstition or wive's tale. It is part of what makes the Jedi special, they are able to understand and use this mystical energy. By making a Church of the Force it seems to both de-emphasize the Jedi and places them on a pedestal. I never felt that the Force or belief in it constituted an organized religion. Its just feels at odds with the rest of the SWU to me.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:54 am Post subject: |
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But with what people KNOW jedi can do, why wouldn't there be some who worshipped them and the force..?
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But with what people KNOW jedi can do, why wouldn't there be some who worshipped them and the force..? |
Right on. The Empire is so young that many people alive would have seen the Jedi in their own lifetimes and remember them.
| Qui-Gon Jinn wrote: | | Nothing happens by accident. |
That's very universal. I do not read Qui-Gon to really mean, "Nothing happens by accident to Jedi."
| Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: | | It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together. |
The is an energy field created by all living things. Not the just the Jedi. It binds the entire galaxy together. That very universal.
| Yoda wrote: | | Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel The Force around you. Here, between you...me...the tree...the rock...everywhere. |
I do not read Yoda to really mean "Luminous beings are just you and me, Luke. Everyone else is just crude matter." Riffing off of Obi-Wan, Yoda reiterates that the Force is everywhere.
| Luke Skywalker wrote: | | Feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate. |
That's great general advice for anyone, not just Jedi teachings for former Jedi.
| Quote: | The Church of the Force was an underground faith composed of loosely-affiliated worshipers of the Force. Members of the faith believed that the Jedi Order had to return...
The Church of the Force was an underground faith that believed in the ideals of the Jedi Order. It existed during the time of the Galactic Empire, when such spiritual beliefs were strictly forbidden. Despite the threat of Imperial rule...
The Church of the Force existed as an underground movement during the Age of the Empire, when the Jedi Knights were hunted to near-extinction and worship in the supernatural was a violation of Imperial law. |
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Why? Non-Force-sensitive people who remember the lost Jedi Order and honor the tenets of the Jedi? What is so horrible about that idea? |
To me it sort of removes the mysticism of the Force. I always sort of felt like it was a part of the SWU that was an underpinning but few people gave it much credit. Treating it as a superstition or wive's tale. It is part of what makes the Jedi special, they are able to understand and use this mystical energy. By making a Church of the Force it seems to both de-emphasize the Jedi and places them on a pedestal. I've never felt that the Force or belief in it constituted an organized religion. Its just feels at odds with the rest of the SWU to me. |
Thanks for sharing your views. I'd have to say that is a unique (and seemingly non-canonical) perspective on the Force. Since the Star Wars novelization in 1976, the Force has been represented as completely universal. The Force flows through all living things, not only Jedi. What makes the Jedi special is their unique role in the galaxy as the official state guardians of peace and justice in the Republic for millennia. Yes I do agree that the Jedi have a particular philosophy, code, and understanding of the Force, lending to the use of some Force powers that may be exclusive to the Jedi. But I don't feel that no one else would even believe in the existence of Force.
The Church of the Force seems to have been created in the wake of the destruction of the Jedi Order and the Rise of the Empire. Yes, I do agree that part of Palpatine's Imperial propaganda would be that The Force is a mere a superstition and wive's tale (and it is illegal to believe otherwise), but that doesn't mean that everyone believed that. The Church of the Force is an illegal underground group of loosely-affiliated adherents that believe in the existence of the Force and venerate the Jedi way. That's not really "organized religion". Order 66 is what "de-emphasized" the Jedi (and then some), not this loosely organized reactionary religious movement.
The Force is too universal, powerful and mysterious to for me for the existence of this Church of the Force to remove any mysticism from The Force. But hey, whatever works for you.
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