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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | Telsij wrote: | IIRC from the Visual Guide, the hilt of his staff is only a lamp, but that it also contains a kyber crystal sliver,
and that through his enhanced sense of hearing, Chirrut is able to use the harmonics of both to better gauge the placement of his staff. |
More silliness, IMO. In a universe with the Force, Chirrut exhibited enough awareness that I'd stat him as a Quixotic Jedi, with dice in Control and Sense, but not Alter. |
Have to agree about the silliness. Word of God has said over and over again that Chirrut is not a Jedi, but under D6 rules, I don't think there's any way to say that he's not at least a minor Force-sensitive. Dunno how'd I'd stat him, though, so I can't fault CRM for stating him as a Quixotic Jedi. Perhaps a Quixotic Human Student of the Force? |
Perhaps he is not a jedi/force user, but similar to those blind humans who 'see through the force'??
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Perhaps he is not a jedi/force user, but similar to those blind humans who 'see through the force'?? |
Miraluka. I had thought about this but it just doesn't fit given what we see and know so far.
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Xain Arke
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Chiirut is tricky in game mechanics terms, because he falls outside any
kind of Force connected character that has been shown before.
I feel he's one of those characters that would require GM and player to put a lot in to make work as intended.
Personally, I'd probably make him Force Sensitive, and that's it. His fortuitous happenings - being in the cell next to the imperial defector, feeling Jyn by her crystal, walking across a battle unharmed - can be modelled with Force point and character point spending or just GM fiat
plot reasons and just a different take on discription
Example; walking across the battle field and not being hit by all those blaster shots can be modelled with spending a Force Point and full round
dodging - but having the description as the shots missing as he slowly walks and chants rather than the character jumping around and evading.
just my take.
He certainly is an interesting character though.
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Xain Arke wrote: | | Example; walking across the battle field and not being hit by all those blaster shots can be modelled with spending a Force Point and full round dodging - but having the description as the shots missing as he slowly walks and chants rather than the character jumping around and evading. |
Exactly what I was suggesting earlier in the thread. It was an epic moment and in a game the GM probably would have dropped enough clue bombs to let the player know, "This is it, how do you want to go out?" The player decided the full round dodge while using a Force Point, narrates it out in epic fashion.
This is something I keep trying to get across to players and GMs both. The roll just tells you if something happened and how well. Narrate something cool. But alas, most of them come from a D&D background where its, roll D20, add modifiers, compare armor class, hit, roll damage, miss, next attack, as nauseum.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | Word of God has said over and over again that Chirrut is not a Jedi, |
Just to clarify, have they stuck to saying that he is not a Jedi, or have they also stated he is not a Force Sensitive. If it is the former, and not the later, there are plenty of alternate Force user traditions in the SWU.
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Xain Arke
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This is something I keep trying to get across to players and GMs both. The roll just tells you if something happened and how well. Narrate something cool. But alas, most of them come from a D&D background where its, roll D20, add modifiers, compare armor class, hit, roll damage, miss, next attack, as nauseum. |
Yeah, it's weird isn't it. When I used to play AD&D way back in 2nd ED, we used to describe results of actions all the time.
I think maybe it's more a result of Computer Game fixed or linear naratives as it seems that more and more people new to Roleplaying come via that avenue. If you've only been given the illusion of 'unlimited actions', it's difficult to think on the fly when you have actual unlimited options.
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Sutehp wrote: | | Word of God has said over and over again that Chirrut is not a Jedi, |
Just to clarify, have they stuck to saying that he is not a Jedi, or have they also stated he is not a Force Sensitive. If it is the former, and not the later, there are plenty of alternate Force user traditions in the SWU. |
Right, exactly right. I don't have the RO Visual Guide and I still have to finish reading the novelization of RO, but what I've heard is that Chirrut is definitely not a Jedi, but as to whether he's an untrained Force-Sensitive has not been definitely answered (at least to my knowledge).
And we in the audience know that the Force has a will of its own, or at least we've seen that that's the impression certain people in the galaxy have of the Force, if they know of the Force. It's certainly very possible that the Force is acting through Chirrut even though he's not Force-Sensitive, and his only "connection" to the Force is through his faith in the Force alone. How that would work under D6 statistics except through GM fiat is a mystery to me, aside from the possibility, as Shootingwomprats said, of Chirrut saving his few Force points for his moments of badassery like his curbstomping of the stormtroopers on Jedha or (especially) his walk to the master switch, chanting his Survival Mantra all the while.
Chirrut and everyone who knows him intimately (which I guess is just Baze by the time of Rogue One) never mentions that Chirrut ever had Force training of any kind. In fact, Baze specifically said that Chirrut is a "dreamer" and a "fool," which is not what one would expect Baze to say if Chirrut had Force training of any other tradition. And Baze and Chirrut have been inseperable for years, so if Chirrut had recieved Force training of a non-Jedi tradition, Baze could be expected to know of that.
This means that there are two possibilities: either Chirrut is really non-Force-Sensitive or he's a completely untrained (and very weak) Force-Sensitive. If the latter, then it's possible that the Jedi evaluated him and found him unworthy of training and he volunteered to be a Guardian of the Whills on Jedha instead of being sent to the Jedi Agricorps (or wherever it is that the Jedi Order sent failed Padawans). Though I doubt very much that this is what Chirrut's writeup in the Visual Guide says. If the former, then it highlights Chirrut's status as a badass who really has honed his other senses to compensate for his lack of visual sight.
In any case, this "faith in the Force" phenomenon certainly has some excellent story potential.
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Telsij
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Sutehp wrote: | | Word of God has said over and over again that Chirrut is not a Jedi, |
Just to clarify, have they stuck to saying that he is not a Jedi, or have they also stated he is not a Force Sensitive. If it is the former, and not the later, there are plenty of alternate Force user traditions in the SWU. |
Thought Sutehp and Shooting Womprats have already described the approach we're leaning toward re: statting him up (working out some kind of "Faith" based mechanic), I do recall somewhere in RAW that stated even just Force Sensitives may be granted a timely Force Point, if/when the Force is calling to them, etc. Finding and refining/adapting this mechanic for Chirrut may work. Will have to check through the rulebooks, so don't quote me on that being in RAW.
I will quote the Visual Guide though! And it still manages to leave things somewhat ambiguous, re: Force Sensitivity:
"Though he seemingly lacks Force abilities, this warrior monk honed his body through intense physical and mental discipline." (p 90).
His starwars.com Databank entry paraphrases this, but drops the "seemingly".
More simplistic (ie: more kid-oriented) media, such as the sticker book, states that he is, "attuned to the mystical energy of the Force."
https://i1.wp.com/spoiledbluemilk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Chirrut_sticker.jpg?resize=228%2C300
SO, he still could be Force Sensitive, but without dice in the Force Skills, and able to access it / let it flow through him, via his Faith.
Last edited by Telsij on Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:56 pm; edited 10 times in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | In any case, this "faith in the Force" phenomenon certainly has some excellent story potential. |
Indeed. Calling Chirrut a Quixotic Jedi is incorrect on my part, since he obviously isn't one, but the potential for him to be a minor Force sensitive of some type is certainly there. And he is certainly eccentric enough to qualify as Quixotic.
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| Xain Arke wrote: | Chiirut is tricky in game mechanics terms, because he falls outside any
kind of Force connected character that has been shown before.
I feel he's one of those characters that would require GM and player to put a lot in to make work as intended.
Personally, I'd probably make him Force Sensitive, and that's it. His fortuitous happenings - being in the cell next to the imperial defector, feeling Jyn by her crystal, walking across a battle unharmed - can be modelled with Force point and character point spending or just GM fiat
plot reasons and just a different take on discription
Example; walking across the battle field and not being hit by all those blaster shots can be modelled with spending a Force Point and full round
dodging - but having the description as the shots missing as he slowly walks and chants rather than the character jumping around and evading.
just my take.
He certainly is an interesting character though.
Xain |
For me, the fact he has script immunity by design of the film's writers and us having to find ways to shoehorn how that's done in to a game is part of the disconnect..
And on the 'full round dodge', you don't get any other action, that includes moving.. Getting from where he was to that console was Definitely more than a free 'half move' action...
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:16 am Post subject: |
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I say Chirrut is definitely Force-sensitive with Sense and maybe Control. He had too much amazing Daredevil perceptions to not be Force-sensitive.
But I do not at all get this stuff I am reading about him not having dice in Force skills and only accessing the Force "through his faith". That's how anyone accesses the Force. Jedi have faith. Sith have faith. There are different ways of viewing the Force, and different belief systems may hold that the Force manifest itself differently, but it is still the universal Force. Some call it the Force of Others and chant mantras. Some may say there are cosmic beings known as the Whills, made of the Force and worthy of being worshipped as deities. TFA had "The Church of the Force" and whatever Maz was. Jedi and Sith (and Ren) are not the only ways to view (and access) the Force. It's just how in the real world we have many different religions and forms of spirituality but many of them have some common aspects between them.
In the WEG game, Chirrut would be an example of an alternate Force tradition. He would still have dice in Force skills, just not Alter. He would have powers. Magnify senses? Enhance Attribute? I wouldn't call him "Quixotic" because that character template is nuts. Chirrut is not insane. He's a Guardian of the Whills.
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Xain Arke
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For me, the fact he has script immunity by design of the film's writers and us having to find ways to shoehorn how that's done in to a game is part of the disconnect.. |
Yep, completely agree garhkal. I don't envy anyone trying to system mechanic this kind of stuff.
| Quote: | | And on the 'full round dodge', you don't get any other action, that includes moving.. Getting from where he was to that console was Definitely more than a free 'half move' action... |
Well, true...but the description of the Dodge skill includes some movement in how it works
| Quote: | | slipping around a corner for cover, diving behind cargo containers, dropping to the ground, or any other manoeuvres to avoid getting hit |
I think that has enough leeway for a GM to allow the walk across blaster fire and then the half-move get to the switch. Pulling the switch could count as a free action under the rules description.
After all, the Character dies doing this vital action.
Personally, I would have no hesitation in letting a player do it this way. sacrificing for the greater good is totally Star Wars and completely epic done the way Chiirut did it.
But maybe that's just me 
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cheshire
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
TFA had "The Church of the Force" and whatever Maz was. Jedi and Sith (and Ren) are not the only ways to view (and access) the Force. It's just how in the real world we have many different religions and forms of spirituality but many of them have some common aspects between them.
In the WEG game, Chirrut would be an example of an alternate Force tradition. He would still have dice in Force skills, just not Alter. He would have powers. |
IIRC WEG had a few alternate Force traditions. They usually gave them a few dice in Control and/or Sense, and then described a few powers. Not to mention the fact that they did have powers for the Dathomirian Witches and whatever those guys were in Darkstryder Endgame.
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Telsij
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | I say Chirrut is definitely Force-sensitive with Sense and maybe Control. He had too much amazing Daredevil perceptions to not be Force-sensitive.
But I do not at all get this stuff I am reading about him not having dice in Force skills and only accessing the Force "through his faith". That's how anyone accesses the Force. Jedi have faith. Sith have faith. There are different ways of viewing the Force, and different belief systems may hold that the Force manifest itself differently, but it is still the universal Force. Some call it the Force of Others and chant mantras. Some may say there are cosmic beings known as the Whills, made of the Force and worthy of being worshipped as deities. TFA had "The Church of the Force" and whatever Maz was. Jedi and Sith (and Ren) are not the only ways to view (and access) the Force. It's just how in the real world we have many different religions and forms of spirituality but many of them have some common aspects between them.
In the WEG game, Chirrut would be an example of an alternate Force tradition. He would still have dice in Force skills, just not Alter. He would have powers. Magnify senses? Enhance Attribute? I wouldn't call him "Quixotic" because that character template is nuts. Chirrut is not insane. He's a Guardian of the Whills. |
I also generally agree with this, as well as with what Xain had offered as his take. I think what I and others were having trouble with, was trying to reconcile this with statements made by "Canon" sources, since we didn't want to necessarily contradict those statements outright.
Introducing a specific Faith aspect isn't necessarily to say that Jedi and Sith don't operate out of faith, IMHO. I think it's just trying to get at or capture the idea that, with Chirrut at least (as well as in RL), that one believes without necessarily seeing (no pun intended) proof before hand, or without others able to easily corroborate.
It's established to the Audience that Jedi and Sith are "justified" in their Faith even if people dismiss their belief as hokey religion... because they can move things with their mind, etc, whereas RO lends more real world leap-of-faith traits to Chirrut's approach.
One of the other template type/names we were also thinking of using was "Devout Guardian of the Whills" -- though I do think Chirrut qualifies as eccentric, he is perhaps not Quixotic is the tranditional, delusional Don Quixote sense.
The Visual Guide suggests that Chirrut's physical skill is also honed by his Zama Shiwo martial arts practice, which focuses on body control, and allows for "seemingly supernatural effects" not unlike the control and sense stunts of Jedi, so there's that.
I personally initially pitched him as Force Sensitive with only Sense, but I can see the arguments made for his having Control and Sense, or as just being Force Sensitive, with creative storytelling / dramatically apt use of FP.
Last edited by Telsij on Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:46 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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Ninjaxenomorph
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| The Witches of Dathomir had their own style of force abilities that didn't require force skills. Maybe we can do something like that? |
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