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Dustflier
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
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Location: Upstate New York
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 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:07 am Post subject: |
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The urban environments of Mon Cala are not quite the same as the Big Apple here in the real world. On a water planet, cities and buildings have to be engineered to withstand the pressures of the ocean and are enviro-sealed. It's only propulsion away from being a spaceship.
It's not that far-fetched, comparatively. If you need to build a big ship under the nose of the Empire, why not pretend it's a building until it's time to take to the stars?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:30 am Post subject: |
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I agree dust. Heck the whole Lusyankya was hidden under Imperial city for how long, no one knows. BUT it was able to fly. It just needed those booster cradles to get it high enough in the sky for the ship's own engines to kick in and take it out..
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Sutehp
Commodore
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Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Dustflier wrote: | The urban environments of Mon Cala are not quite the same as the Big Apple here in the real world. On a water planet, cities and buildings have to be engineered to withstand the pressures of the ocean and are enviro-sealed. It's only a propulsion unit away from being a spaceship.
It's not that far-fetched, comparatively. If you need to build a big ship under the nose of the Empire, why not pretend it's a building until it's time to take to the stars? |
Until you mentioned this, the idea of "a city building being turned into a starship" made me think of someone trying to strap on a thruster and a hyperdrive onto, say, the Empire State Building, which is a ludicrous idea on the best of days. But, yes, we are talking about urban buildings on Dac, which is centuries if not millennia ahead of Earth technology-wise. Not to mention the engineering factors you pointed out.
Still, the environmental requirements for a sealed building on a water world are completely different from the requirements needed for a starship in the vacuum of space. The first is supposed to resist implosion from all the pressure of being deeply submerged. The other requires maintaining its pressure in vacuum where the slightest breach could be catastrophic. Just being hermetically sealed is not enough to enable something to go from one environment to the other just by adding a thruster and some repulsorlifts.
So yeah, I'm not buying this "Mon Cals are such great engineers that they can turn waterworld urban buildings into starships" dealie. It just breaks the versimilitude of Star Wars IMHO.
And garhkal, the Luskya was NOT designed originally as a building. It was a starship designed as a starship that was simply constructed underground on Coruscant. It was NOT a bunch of converted buildings that got remade into an Executor-class Star Destroyer. So your analogy doesn't work.
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Dustflier
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
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Location: Upstate New York
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:50 am Post subject: |
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Sure, but the Calamarians are experts at both deep sea and space engineering. If anyone can secretly build life support into a floating structure, they can.
This is certainly a less crazy idea than a lot of the stuff in WEG's adventures. We had a battle over a singing birdman, bits of the Organa palace on Alderaan surviving the Death Star, and Otherspace I & II.
The rest of the Star Wars EU had clones with extra vowels in their names, extragalactic invaders that couldn't be felt via the Force, and endlessly repetitive superweapons.
Current canon has lightsaber VTOL (yay Rebels!), Chewie knowing Yoda from the Clone Wars but never defending Jedi to Han (yay Prequels!), and the galaxy staying pretty much the same for thirty years after RotJ (yay Sequels!).
The original trilogy itself had the farmboy protagonist related to the pretty princess AND the evil dark sorcerer that we've seen on-screen already, without any of them knowing. That's not a stretch, though, huh? Nah.
But a starship being disguised as a building? This is where we draw the line. It just doesn't feel like Star Wars anymore.
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
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Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| Ninjaxenomorph wrote: | | I might try my hand at statting up a KX-series security droid later. That and the U-Wing are the things I most want to port into D6, though Cassian's variable-configuration blaster rifle and Baze's weapon (and his little taser thing) are also up there. |
In the opening, when they shoot Jyn's mother? I found myself thinking "Dammit, that's a time when Stun would've been a useful setting to use."
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
B). Will actually be designed from the keel out as a starship, not the utter, stupid ridiculousness of trying to modify a building into a warship.
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I am reminded of the end of Ringworld, where they fly back to the Lying b@st@rd* by mounting a skycycle with a reactionless drive to an old police station.
If nothing else, flying a building has a decently long pedigree in Sci-Fi. And Mon Calamari buildings are at least likely to be sealed.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16282
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | Dustflier wrote: | The urban environments of Mon Cala are not quite the same as the Big Apple here in the real world. On a water planet, cities and buildings have to be engineered to withstand the pressures of the ocean and are enviro-sealed. It's only a propulsion unit away from being a spaceship.
It's not that far-fetched, comparatively. If you need to build a big ship under the nose of the Empire, why not pretend it's a building until it's time to take to the stars? |
Until you mentioned this, the idea of "a city building being turned into a starship" made me think of someone trying to strap on a thruster and a hyperdrive onto, say, the Empire State Building, which is a ludicrous idea on the best of days. But, yes, we are talking about urban buildings on Dac, which is centuries if not millennia ahead of Earth technology-wise. Not to mention the engineering factors you pointed out. |
There is a difference in kind of environment sealing. Aquatic structures resist pressure from without, while space structures resist pressure from within. This is not only basic physics, but has precedent in D6 Stats (see the MonCal Deepwater-Class Freighter in Stock Ships).
It is a mistake to assume that buildings and battleships will be built with interchangeable structural tolerances in mind. Warship design will include compartmentalization, bulkheads, internal shielding and a host of other design features specifically designed to contain and limit damage effects to as great a degree as possible, as well as to be able to travel through space and hyperspace, and are designed as such from the keel out. A building is designed to other, less-strenuous structural tolerances.
There is no need for a ship like this to have a ridiculous back story like a converted building. It bears far more resemblance to Separatist designs like the Providence-Class Carrier/Cruiser and the the Malevolence than it does any sort of planetary structure. I fail to see any rational reason why Disneylucas needs to give this thing such a poorly-thought-out backstory; it has no effect on the plot of Rogue One, but leaves fans like myself rolling their eyes hard enough to risk getting whiplash.
If you wish to accept the silliness of a building being converted into a usable warship, that is your prerogative and your SWU. For myself, quod scripsi scripsi. I've already established a track record of going my own way if I feel that official sources are flawed, and I see no reason to deviate from it now.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | I don't seem to have as many gripes as you have with the Disney Star Wars (TFA has grown on me after repeated viewings even though I walked out of the theatre somewhat disappointed with TFA cribbing so much from ANH and I really liked RO), but I agree with you here that turning an urban landmark into a starship breaks Willing Suspension of Disbelief. |
I'm actually okay with most of TFA, with the glaring exception of the weapon discharge from Starkiller Base. I can accept (barely) a sci-fi weapon that fires an energy beam through hyperspace; the EU already has something like this in the Galaxy Gun from Dark Empire 2. However, the idea of being able to see the cannon's beam in real time, just by looking up into the sky, from thousands of lightyears away utterly shattered my Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
The only way I am able to accept it is by satire; it is my theory that Starkiller Base is actually a crossover with Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, with the Starkiller Cannon actually being an Infinite Improbability Cannon (the beam passes simultaneously through every point in the known universe), as well as making extensive use of Probability Field Technology in its construction (with the unintended side effect of explaining the massive number of coincidental occurrences found in the plot.
As well as extensive eye-rolling and repeated grumbling of the phrase "F-ing Disney Wars."
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16282
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Saikoyu wrote: | | The U-wing also has only the two laser cannons on the front and whatever you want o mount to the side doors. No projectile launchers. |
I'm okay with two different versions; one with torpedo launchers, and an earlier one without. If this is a combat shuttle, adding pro-torps gives it that much more punch as an aerial fire support platform.
EDIT: I picture it like the Vietnam-War era Hueys: Slicks (no side mounted rockets or machine guns) and Snakes (KABLOOEY!).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
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Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
I'm actually okay with most of TFA, with the glaring exception of the weapon discharge from Starkiller Base. I can accept (barely) a sci-fi weapon that fires an energy beam through hyperspace; |
Have I mentioned the Long-gunner of the Apocalypse, yet?
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Ninjaxenomorph
Lieutenant
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 92
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Well it would make sense, especially if it were a retrofitted civilian version. Another change I would suggest is that it use starfighter piloting instead; the visual guide states that the tandem controls are unusual on a starfighter. |
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Sutehp
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Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | I'm actually okay with most of TFA, with the glaring exception of the weapon discharge from Starkiller Base. I can accept (barely) a sci-fi weapon that fires an energy beam through hyperspace; the EU already has something like this in the Galaxy Gun from Dark Empire 2. However, the idea of being able to see the cannon's beam in real time, just by looking up into the sky, from thousands of lightyears away utterly shattered my Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
The only way I am able to accept it is by satire; it is my theory that Starkiller Base is actually a crossover with Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, with the Starkiller Cannon actually being an Infinite Improbability Cannon (the beam passes simultaneously through every point in the known universe), as well as making extensive use of Probability Field Technology in its construction (with the unintended side effect of explaining the massive number of coincidental occurrences found in the plot.
As well as extensive eye-rolling and repeated grumbling of the phrase "F-ing Disney Wars." |
CRM, this I heartily agree with you here. It's not the first time that J.J.Abrams seems wedded to the idea that you can look up in the sky and see stuff happening light-years away in real-time. Remember how in the 2009 Star Trek movie Spock Prime could look up to the sky of an ice planet and see Vulcan get imploded in real-time even though he was light-years away? The destruction of the Hosnian system reminded me of that (and this was a big reason why I walked out of the TFA theater disappointed). The Handwavium explanations (Spock was having a psychic vision of Vulcan being destroyed; the Starkiller weapon rips "holes" in hyperspace throughout the galaxy) were only so much schlock to me.
In fact, on the TVTrope website, take a gander at the "Vulcan has no moon" entry for TFA. I'll quote it here:
| TVTropes/TFA/Vulcan Has No Moon wrote: | | Between this film and Star Trek, you'd be forgiven for thinking that J. J. Abrams is constitutionally incapable of imagining a universe where you cannot see literally every other point in it with the naked eye. The destruction of the several inhabited planets of the Hosnian system is clearly visible with the naked eye, from what is explicitly a different star system entirely, in real time, during the local day, without even using any psychic vision handwavium. |
Yeah.
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Sutehp's RPG Goodies
Only some of it is for D6 Star Wars.
Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them.
Last edited by Sutehp on Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:23 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | The Handwavium explanations (Spock was having a psychic vision of Vulcan being destroyed; the Starkiller weapon rips "holes" in hyperspace throughout the galaxy) were only so much schlock to me. |
Indeed. I have a short list of Star Wars scenes that I simply ignore, or just pretend happened differently. Apart from these two, the other one is Greedo shooting first in ANH.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Sutehp
Commodore
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 1797
Location: Washington, DC (AKA Inside the Beltway)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Sutehp wrote: | | The Handwavium explanations (Spock was having a psychic vision of Vulcan being destroyed; the Starkiller weapon rips "holes" in hyperspace throughout the galaxy) were only so much schlock to me. |
Indeed. I have a short list of Star Wars scenes that I simply ignore, or just pretend happened differently. Apart from these two, the other one is Greedo shooting first in ANH. |
I take a great amount of pride in the fact that I was old enough to see ANH in the theater waaaaay back in 1977 (I was only 5 years old; it might very well have been the first movie my parents ever took me) and still remember the original scene where Han shot first and Greedo never had the chance to pull the trigger. Of all the things Lucas changed in the Digitally Remastered version of the OT, this is the one thing he should have left alone.
I should have gotten one of those "Han Shot First" t-shirts when I had the chance.
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Only some of it is for D6 Star Wars.
Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them. |
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RedKnight
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Han -shot- and greedo MAY have pulled the trigger as a muscle spasm when he died but thats about as far as it goes...as i often say to my friends when this comes up.....Han Solo was NOT a nice man ! A good man sure but NOT nice. |
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