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Error
Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 680
Location: Any blackberry patch.
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 Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:38 am Post subject: |
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If one of your players is getting truly adversarial over the "you can't actually make me!" technicality when it comes to skills like Intimidation and Command or in-game elements like torture or related, that's actually on you for playing with that person to begin with. They seem to generally belong to a subsection of gamers known internally to me as "needlessly stubborn neckbeards" who will argue ANY point as long as their opponent is the GM. It also sucks if you ever need to commandeer a PC for any amount of time to "make" them act the way the situation should.
Most (not all)* of my gaming friends who play tabletop RPG's understand that there are things that are likely to happen in-game to their PC that will make that PC act as a PC does rather than make that PC act as a player does. There is a distinction and it is an important one.
* The younger ones tend to have a harder time of maintaining verisimilitude than the older ones do.
It sucks if any of you out there have whiners who refuse to play along with a torture/Intimidation situation to make it interesting. I don't think a chart should be needed to force players via their PC's to behave, but if that's how far someone is willing to go to force the point (heheheh) then okay.
Honestly, players really will start to take scenes seriously if you begin killing them. Just kill the one who is loudest about not cooperating. Or, less severely, you can throw adversaries at them that have both the power and the impetus to kill them. It's almost like you're torturing the player with the potential loss of his or her beloved character...the player will need to weigh important internal values vs. external forces and make an informed tactical decision. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what happens with torture in real life. "Is this piece of information worth holding onto long enough to get waterboarded again?" is replaced by "Is the info this PC has worth getting him killed over?"
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
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Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:09 am Post subject: |
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To an extent, you're right, Error... people should be willing to play the rolls against them. However, this is made easier when there's a mechanical framework in place to represent these things.
Again, reference the Intimidation skill. There's not really a framework for what happens when someone succeeds at an intimidation check. Heck, is "They're on Dantooine" a result of a successful Intimidate roll ("I have to give him information"), or a successful Willpower roll ("I am going to lie plausibly to defuse the situation")? Or, hey, maybe she opposed Intimidate with Con, since she lied about the location of the base.
Taking player agency out of it, what happens if Grand Moff NPC is using Intimidate to interrogate the notorious rogue, Character non-Playeur? We know from R&E how difficult it is, but if Grand Moff NPC rolls 1 more than Character, does Monseur non-Playeur give up EVERYTHING? Or does he give them something? We don't have a framework to judge this on. Without that framework, even playing the rolls made against you can become difficult.
That's where social combat rules come into play... what that failure by 1 means, and how it's different than a failure by 16 or more.
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ebertran
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 202
Location: Miami, FL
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Taking player agency out of it, what happens if Grand Moff NPC is using Intimidate to interrogate the notorious rogue, Character non-Playeur? We know from R&E how difficult it is, but if Grand Moff NPC rolls 1 more than Character, does Monseur non-Playeur give up EVERYTHING? Or does he give them something? We don't have a framework to judge this on. Without that framework, even playing the rolls made against you can become difficult. |
Now I want to add something like "Must Answer One Question Truthfully"; "Must Answer All Questions Truthfully", etc.
There really needs to be a framework, like you said, otherwise it's too vague.
Of course, player CHOICE being so important, perhaps a tradeoff can be created, where mechanical effects go away in exchange for the truth (if being Interrogated, for example).
So maybe:
21-25: -5D to all skill checks while in the presence of the intimidator permanently. Outside of combat, PCs can spend four character points to immediately remove the effect, or attempt one Heroic Willpower roll to immediately remove the effect. If being Interrogated, answering one question truthfully will remove all effects.
26+: -6D to all skill checks while in the presence of the intimidator permanently. Outside of combat, PCs can spend five character points to immediately remove the effect. If being Interrogated, answering all questions truthfully will remove all effects.
This provides players (IMO) with the choice of how to deal with these debilitating effects, while at the same time mechanically representing the effects of intimidation.
Your mileage may vary, of course, but now in my opinion, facing a guy with a 7D in intimidation actually has some mechanical weight behind it. . |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:53 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I'd oppose making CP or FP "Get out of problem free" chits, regardless. There's established mechanics for CP and FP... spending them to add dice to improve your chances isn't a sure thing, but it is a thing.
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“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/ |
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ebertran
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 202
Location: Miami, FL
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Personally, I'd oppose making CP or FP "Get out of problem free" chits, regardless. |
I know what you mean, but the way I see it, the PC is choosing to give up character advancement in exchange for lifting the monkey of intimidation effects off his back. It's a pretty meaningful choice to give up that many CP, and it's not a choice they ~have to take~, it's one that's available.
To put it another way... CP are important. Is the use of "get out of problem free" better than advancing your PC? Or adding to necessary die rolls later on in the adventure? I don't know. Seems like giving up a CP for this may not be the best choice you can make.
I like to believe that affording players a variety of meaningful choices can lead to a more interesting session, but again, YMMV.  |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ebertran wrote: | | Quote: | | Personally, I'd oppose making CP or FP "Get out of problem free" chits, regardless. |
I know what you mean, but the way I see it, the PC is choosing to give up character advancement in exchange for lifting the monkey of intimidation effects off his back. It's a pretty meaningful choice to give up that many CP, and it's not a choice they ~have to take~, it's one that's available.
To put it another way... CP are important. Is the use of "get out of problem free" better than advancing your PC? Or adding to necessary die rolls later on in the adventure? I don't know. Seems like giving up a CP for this may not be the best choice you can make.
I like to believe that affording players a variety of meaningful choices can lead to a more interesting session, but again, YMMV. |
Sure, but the same could be said for using the established mechanics. Conversely, would you allow someone to ignore an attack or damage roll by spending 4 CP?
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"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/ |
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ebertran
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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Location: Miami, FL
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Combat has a well defined mechanic. Right now with intimidation there is zero framework to resolve degree of intimidation beyond "act intimidated". What does that mean? How intimidated am I? What am i willing to give up? The game forgot to tell me in the rules.
I know what it takes to make a character wounded or incapcitated. What does it take for me or an npc to divulge info? A little info? Does he beat my score by 10 to get more info? There are no clear rules nor guidelines. Except "you're intimidated". Huh?
Simpler: no dofference mechanically between a guy with 1d in i timidation beating me by 2 points and a guy with 8d beating me by 21. Rules don't care nor guide a possible outcome. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ebertran wrote: | | In my experience, players do not like being told that their character feels intimidated or scared. Nobody likes being told how to act. |
So as i asked before.. Do you not have enemies use Affect mind on them? Control mind? Command (for NPC officers in the rebellion)? Fear or command/charm spells in ADND?
| MrNexx wrote: | | Personally, I'd oppose making CP or FP "Get out of problem free" chits, regardless. There's established mechanics for CP and FP... spending them to add dice to improve your chances isn't a sure thing, but it is a thing. |
Agreed. If you don't wanna be intimidated in the first place, USE those CP to raise your willpower skill, or to increase the roll (though unless its actually life threatening its capped at 2).. Or pop that force point to try a heroic resistance..
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ebertran
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Sure.
What nobody is answering is what that means?
What is intimidated? Does a guy who beats my willpower by 1 affect me the same as a guy that beats me by 20?
What are the guidelines to know -how- intimidated I am? Are there mechanical effects? Dnd at least applies rules to their Charm Person spells, etc., but this skill provides zero examples or even a little guidance on what it means to be intimidated by Darth Vader or by the local cantina bully. All I'm tryinn to do is create game effects where the game decided to not have any. It's useless as an npc skill otherwise |
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Some folks did give answers, but developing a social combat system is a bit larger of a task.
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"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/ |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ebertran wrote: | Sure.
What nobody is answering is what that means?
What is intimidated? Does a guy who beats my willpower by 1 affect me the same as a guy that beats me by 20?
What are the guidelines to know -how- intimidated I am? Are there mechanical effects? Dnd at least applies rules to their Charm Person spells, etc., but this skill provides zero examples or even a little guidance on what it means to be intimidated by Darth Vader or by the local cantina bully. All I'm tryinn to do is create game effects where the game decided to not have any. It's useless as an npc skill otherwise |
There are none EXISTING, that's why me and both CRM and Wamprats have given EXAMPLES of how you CAN give the guidelines for what the effects are..
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:59 am Post subject: |
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So, REUP has a "combat intimidation" rule:
| Quote: | | Using in Combat (Option): At gamemaster discretion, intimidation can enhance a characters attacks and defenses. The player adds one-half of the difference (positive or negative) between the difficulty and the intimidation roll to any one attack or defense attempt (not both) made at Point Blank or Short range. The character must use the benefit from scaring the target on the same turn as or on the round after the interaction endeavor. |
I'm not fond of that one, however. So, I'm going to steal liberally from Savage Worlds. I'll post it over in House Rules
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"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/ |
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