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Whill
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 Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:00 am Post subject: Rogue One (original spoilers thread) |
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If you haven't seen the film yet, turn back now!
| A New Hope wrote: | It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.
During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet.
Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents... |
This is your final warning!
Rogue One Spoiler Policy
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Whill
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ebertran
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Loved it, and it makes me see Vader in a whole new light.
What if the entire time, there was "some" good in him after all?
It seems he pulled his punches a bit with Obi Wan and Luke. And gave each a chance to not die... Because he was RUTHLESS in that final scene. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:47 pm Post subject: Scarif |
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So many feels about this cinematic experience last night! I can't wait to take my son to see it tomorrow morning... Some logical thoughts... hmm...
I'm very pleased with Scarif replacing the EU's Toprawa. It always bothered me that Toprawa was literally halfway across the galaxy from Tatooine and still far from Alderaan. In the beginning of ANH, Leia is desperately seeking the help of Obi-Wan, but the opening crawl says, "Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans". Tatooine is not even close to being on the way to Alderaan from Toprawa. Now Scarif (the tropical planet of RO's final battle) is very close to Tatooine, just a little to the west of it on the Corellian Run.
With RO dialogue between Mon Mothma and Bail Organa about getting help from his Jedi friend (right before Bail leaves for Alderaan), I think it all makes more sense now. Tatooine would be a very quick hop, skip, and jump from Scarif easily on Leia's way "home". I'm glad that RO solved that incongruity of the EU. The continuity of RO is definitely adopted wholesale into my personal SW canon. Since I also wish to honor the galactic atlas placement of virtually all EU worlds, Toprawa can stay where it is. It's just no longer where Leia received the Death Star plans.
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:04 pm Post subject: Vader |
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| ebertran wrote: | Loved it, and it makes me see Vader in a whole new light.
What if the entire time, there was "some" good in him after all?
It seems he pulled his punches a bit with Obi Wan and Luke. And gave each a chance to not die... Because he was RUTHLESS in that final scene. |
Ruthless indeed! Last night I sat between my wife and one of my best friends since childhood, Mike. He and I have seen all the new Star Wars movies together since Return of the Jedi when we were kids in 1983. When Vader started kicking @ss against those Alderaanian soldiers, Mike was very uncharacteristically giggling almost like a little girl. (I had a similar giddy moment before that when Red Leader and Gold Leader appeared in the space battle.)
I felt Vader in RO helped to tie Episode III to IV. At the end of RotS we see Anakin become the classic visage of Vader, but after that he doesn't do anything like all the bad@ss stuff he does in AotC and RotS before getting delimbed, immolated, and cyborged. In RO, I could much better imagine an older damaged prequel Anakin Skywalker underneath that armor than I could in ANH.
"Escape is not his plan. I must face him, alone." In light of the now four Star Wars prequels, I still see Vader as playing it extremely cautious against old Obi-Wan on the Death Star. I think Vader may have truly believed that he was more powerful than Obi-Wan at that point, but that made him even more weary of what Obi-Wan's move was here. Based on how he took off mid-sentence from the Falcon hanger when he sense Obi-Wan's presence, I think Vader truly felt fear that Obi-Wan might have some trick up his sleeve to destroy him due to his failure to do so back on Mustafar. Then when Obi-Wan closed his eyes and held his saber up, Vader couldn't resist just taking the opportunity to cut Obi-Wan down. Then Vader was truly surprised when Obi-Wan just disappeared, fearful again of a trick. In TESB when Vader comments to the Emperor that Obi-Wan can no longer help Luke, Vader sounds to me like he could be still trying to convince himself of that.
With Luke in TESB and RotJ, Vader was definitely holding back. On the surface, it seems to be out of wanting to convert Luke to the Dark Side. However deep down inside, it may have also been out of love for Padme and the good in Vader. Yes, there was always still good in Vader or there wouldn't have been any good to come back to the surface, save Luke and destroy the Sith in RotJ. Qui-Gon, Padme and Luke were all right about Anakin.
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Dustflier
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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I absolutely love Rogue One.
There's so much worldbuilding! The Ring of Whatchyamadoit, Jedha, the Guardians of the Whills (you must be particularly excited, Whill), the Juggernaut tank used as a prisoner transport, everything on Scariff, the Death Troopers, all of it.
Who wants to start doing stats for a sourcebook?
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DirkCorman
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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I loved it!!!
Especially the little easter eggs.. Especially one.
And I'm pleased that there wasn't a forced romance between Jyn and Cassian.
Wouldn't have been right to me.. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Dustflier wrote: | I absolutely love Rogue One.
There's so much worldbuilding! The Ring of Whatchyamadoit, Jedha, the Guardians of the Whills (you must be particularly excited, Whill), the Juggernaut tank used as a prisoner transport, everything on Scariff, the Death Troopers, all of it.
Who wants to start doing stats for a sourcebook? |
Yes! It is exciting. "Whills" was finally spoken in a film in the form of "Guardian of the Whills". The large structure in Jedha City was referred to in the film as The Kyber Temple, but another canon name for it not stated in the film itself is "The Temple of the Whills". And Jedha is eerily similar to the central planet in my "Whills Nebula" (which is on the other side of the galaxy from Jedha). It's all good.
The worldbuilding is great. I just love all this new stuff in the classic era.
| DirkCorman wrote: | And I'm pleased that there wasn't a forced romance between Jyn and Cassian.
Wouldn't have been right to me.. |
I quite agree. An actual romance would have been completely out of place in this movie. But they did share a moment of tenderness in the final moments of their lives. I feel it was completely appropriate.
| DirkCorman wrote: | I loved it!!!
Especially the little easter eggs.. Especially one. |
Which one? This is a spoilers allowed thread. You can say it here.
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griff
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:22 am Post subject: |
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Saw the Ghost and there was the announcement at the rebel base for general syndulla (hera). There was something from almost every star wars movie and tv series. Except the ewok tv movies. I personally rank Rouge One just under The Empire Strikes Back. And the age old question asked by Micheal Knight when he first Sat sat in Kit (Knightrider) "what is this Darth Vader's bathroom?" Is answered.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:55 am Post subject: |
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Overwhelming. There is so much to work with here...
For starters, my stats for the U-Wing need a reconsideration. Obviously, some of what I took to be the U-Wing was actually the Imperial cargo shuttle. We also catch a glimpse of an Imperial counterpart to the U-Wing, based on the TIE Striker design.
I can only assume the Rebel Flagship is some sort of Separatist design (they seemed to be obsessed with putting vulnerable command pods in exposed positions out on the ends of long spars)...
I loved seeing Y-Wings in action as something other than targets. In fact, during the bombing run on the gate-ring, I swear I saw a bomb drop from one of the Y's. That ties in nicely with my stat re-write of Y-Wings...
Still processing...
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Overwhelming. There is so much to work with here...
Still processing... |
I agree wholeheartedly. I typically like to spend a day or two before I start talking about a SWU movie, tv show, book, etc. I the movie yesterday morning, so I am still in the processing mode. I will see it again on Tue-Dec-20.
In the meantime, I really liked the movie. I initially gave Ep,VII a 7.2 which has dropped to a 5.7 with additional viewings. This one I think is a solod 7.9 to 8.1.
I did not like the "feel" of the movie up until they blasted off from the Rebel base on Yavin 4. Up until that point it was too dark for me. The Rebels were cold, callous and generally very unheroic, embracing the the "insurgent" mindset. If I want that crap, I will watch CNN, MSNBC, etc. I just didn't like the way it made the Rebels appear. Less noble, less heroic, more ... a-holes.
Seriously, we have one of the main characters kill a contact in cold blood so he cannot be captured? We have an Alliance general saying to kill a target, while the daughter is in the same room? I mean, I get setting the mood a touch darker, but there are nothing noble, nothing heroic about this.
I did like the idea that the Alliance was a fractured group up until that point, barely held together until the Death Star became a huge danger.
Character development beyond the main female character was non-existent for the other characters. They had cool concepts and did cool things but what do we know about them? Their motivations? Etc?
I did like the ending though I am conflicted over it. Yes, everyone died heroically, but that's the point, everyone died. Even the "rebel" fleet was destroyed.
I really enjoyed the last 10+ minutes of the movie best. The space battle was good, but the scene with Vader just wiping out Rebels here there and everywhere was terrifying!
I thought the CGI stuff for Tarkin and Leia were awesome.
I loved the world-building. This movie added so much more to work with than say Ep.VII, which in my mind, was a bunch of Disney execs and Abrams mentally masturbating over the franchise.
Rogue One turned out to the apology for Ep.VII I was hoping it would be.
As for developing content. Just like Ep.VII its going to be a royal pain in the but. Its been a year since Ep.VII and we don't really have any additional information for a plethora of things like the aliens and characters at the castle. Perhaps they have Ep.VII-IX in lock-down because of how they are being released. Maybe Rogue One as it is self-contained and Ep.IV is its direct sequel information will be more forthcoming.
Anyways, long rant from me, all in, much better than Ep.VII, the prequels will not be mentioned, and I would rank it up there with ESB and maybe even a smidge higher, but that official ruling will have to come after a few more viewings.
Oh, one final mention. The main bad guy. He was competent but not the total bad-@ss I was thinking he was going to be. Anyone else?
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Dustflier
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Location: Upstate New York
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | The Rebels were cold, callous and generally very unheroic, embracing the the "insurgent" mindset. If I want that crap, I will watch CNN, MSNBC, etc. I just didn't like the way it made the Rebels appear. Less noble, less heroic, more ... a-holes. |
I genuinely liked that aspect of it. I'm not super into black/white morality - personally I like my fictional heroes (or anti-heroes) and factions nuanced. Pulling context from the headlines of the last fifty years (yes, it's on CNN now - but FARC, the Viet Kong, and Mujahideen are just as old of ideas to us as the Nazis were to Lucas in the late 70s) only makes Star Wars feel more real.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Seriously, we have one of the main characters kill a contact in cold blood so he cannot be captured? |
Cassian shot first.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | I mean, I get setting the mood a touch darker, but there are nothing noble, nothing heroic about this. |
Good. It shows just how difficult it is for someone like Luke to actually be heroic, to maintain his moral superiority despite a real and horrible war raging around him.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | I loved the world-building. This movie added so much more to work with than say Ep.VII, which in my mind, was a bunch of Disney execs and Abrams mentally masturbating over the franchise. |
My thoughts exactly. I think the worldbuilding aspects of this movie were the best since, maybe, ANH. The one that started it all.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | I would rank it up there with ESB and maybe even a smidge higher. . . |
It goes ESB, ANH, R1, RotJ/TFA/RotS tied, AotC/TPM for me.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Oh, one final mention. The main bad guy. He was competent but not the total bad-@ss I was thinking he was going to be. Anyone else? |
He was a typical Imperial worm. I didn't expect a badass, after reading parts of Catalyst. Instead, I see him as an unscrupulous man riding on the coattails of more intelligent/productive people who have no political ambitions of their own. And that's probably a good character decision, as Tarkin and Vader already filled the niche of "hard, badass" Imperials.
My own two credits on these discussion points.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Another point for starfighter combat: ION TORPEDOES ARE OFFICIALLY A THING!
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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So, here's this. I've updated it from the version I posted here.
U-WING COMBAT SHUTTLE
Craft: Incom's UT-60D "U-Wing"
Type: Multi-Role Combat Shuttle
Scale: Starfighter
Length: 17.5 meters
Skill: Space Transports: U-Wing
Crew: 2 (1 @ +5) & 2 Gunners
Passengers: 10 (or 10 metric tons cargo capacity)
Consumables: 10 days
Nav Computer: Yes
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x1
Hyperdrive Backup: x10
Maneuverability: 1D+1
Space: 6
Atmosphere: 330; 950 kmh
Hull: 4D
Shields: 1D
Sensors:
Passive: 15/0D
Scan: 25/1D
Search: 40/2D
Focus: 1/3D
Weapons:
2 Heavy Laser Cannon (Fire-Linked)
Fire Arc: Front
Crew: 1 (pilot or co-pilot)
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100m-300m/1.2km/2.5km
Damage: 6D
2 Proton Torpedo Launchers (Fire-Linked)
Fire Arc: Front
Crew: 1 (pilot or co-pilot)
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 1/3/7
Atmosphere Range: 30-100/300/700
Damage: 9D
Ammo: 4 per launcher. May select Torpedoes, Space Bombs or Decoys & Probes from this list, depending on Availability.
2 Medium Repeating Blasters
Fire Arc: 1 Front/Left, 1 Front/Right (+5 Difficulty to Hit in Front Arc)
Scale: Character
Crew: 1
Skill: Blaster
Fire Control: None (manually aimed by Gunner)
Atmosphere Range: 3-50/150/400
Rate of Fire: 2D Auto-Fire
Damage: 6D
Note: Can only be fired if the U-Wing's side doors are open, which is only possible in atmosphere. When the doors are open, the door gunner receives the equivalent of 1/4 Cover.
Capsule: Incom's UT-60D, also known as the U-Wing, is a combat-capable light shuttle craft in common use with the Rebel Alliance. Heavily armed and capable of carrying a squad of ground troops, U-Wing's are used in hit-and-fade raids on Imperial installations, as well as transportation for SpecOps and Alliance Intelligence. While fast enough to keep up with other Alliance starfighters, and heavily armed enough to defend itself, the U-Wing is generally used for troop deployment and ground attack, leaving superiority missions to fighters like the X-Wing.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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I just came home from my second viewing. I'm still not yet to the point of being able to rank this movie with respect to the previous seven films. I only just placed TFA within my rankings for the prior six films last week. I'll be sure to create a new thread to discuss we each rank the films, after everyone has seen RO and let it sink in.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | Overwhelming. There is so much to work with here...
In fact, during the bombing run on the gate-ring, I swear I saw a bomb drop from one of the Y's. |
You did. I saw it too. I'm pretty sure it was multiple Y-Wings dropping bombs.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | I did like the idea that the Alliance was a fractured group up until that point, barely held together until the Death Star became a huge danger. |
Yes, that is very cool.
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | Character development beyond the main female character was non-existent for the other characters. They had cool concepts and did cool things but what do we know about them? Their motivations? Etc? |
I disagree overall. I felt the droid, the Imperial pilot, the blind Kung-Force mystic and his repeating-blaster sidekick were sufficiently developed for their roles in the film. The only one I can somewhat agree with is Cassian who had the largest role besides Jyn. They attempted to remedy it with some lines of still-vague dialogue. But overall, what we ended up with is not too far off from any Star Wars movie in that area. This movie is brand new and you've seen it once. I think that maybe the fact that you don't have all the supporting fluff to inform and support the film might be influencing your comparison to the other movies and their character development. I feel that the novelizations usually fill in character development gaps pretty well. Also, see my next post...
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | I did like the ending though I am conflicted over it. Yes, everyone died heroically, but that's the point, everyone died. Even the "rebel" fleet was destroyed. |
Some of the Rebel Fleet did escape to hyperspace so it wasn't completely destroyed. But the Fleet being decimated is supported by the classic trilogy. The Fleet was completely absent from ANH and appeared in only partial form at the end of TESB. Then by RotJ the Fleet is finally built back up to take on the Empire. See my next post...
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | I really enjoyed the last 10+ minutes of the movie best. The space battle was good, but the scene with Vader just wiping out Rebels here there and everywhere was terrifying! |
The whole final battle was awesome! And Vader was awesome. Despite knowing how it would end, the scene was so intense that I truly felt the drama of Get That Hatch Open! Vader Is Coming!
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | I thought the CGI stuff for Tarkin and Leia were awesome.. |
Having seen ANH well over 100 times in my life, I have every minute nuance of Tarkin's and Leia's faces memorized. And perhaps influenced by the fact that I know that it was CG, the CG was honestly quite jarring to me on my first viewing of RO. However on my second viewing I noticed that it seemed much less fake and much more natural to me, which makes me realize the CG was actually quite an amazing accomplishment. So today I must have let go of my conscious self and caught up with you in this respect. Although a minor point, I am relieved. We've come quite a long way from the "Nintendo 64" graphics of the SW:ANH Special Edition Jabba the Hutt!
| Dustflier wrote: | | shootingwomprats wrote: | | The main bad guy. He was competent but not the total bad-@ss I was thinking he was going to be. |
He was a typical Imperial worm. I didn't expect a badass, after reading parts of Catalyst. Instead, I see him as an unscrupulous man riding on the coattails of more intelligent/productive people who have no political ambitions of their own. And that's probably a good character decision, as Tarkin and Vader already filled the niche of "hard, badass" Imperials. |
I agree with Dustifier. I feel that Tarkin and Vader's roles in this film were just right. It is rather quite genius how the original characters (Krennic and heroes) and story of this movie complemented the existing aspects of continuity. It was always Tarkin's intention to take over the Death Star project once it was proven to work and Krennic was no longer needed. See my next post...
| Dustflier wrote: | | shootingwomprats wrote: | | Seriously, we have one of the main characters kill a contact in cold blood so he cannot be captured? |
Cassian shot first. |
That's not just a good joke. The point of Cassian shooting an unarmed man in the back for the greater cause was to set up the later sniper scene drama. Will he follow through with orders to kill Galen Erso? Will he do it? He relents. In the original SW, Han shoots first and kills Greedo. Later, he leaves the Rebels with his reward. But then he comes back and saves Luke, showing there is more to him than money. RO totally copped that dramatic device of a cold-blooded killer later showing more morality and making a different call. Cassian shot first, indeed. And this one can't be undone by Lucas!
| Dustflier wrote: | | shootingwomprats wrote: | | The Rebels were cold, callous and generally very unheroic, embracing the the "insurgent" mindset. If I want that crap, I will watch CNN, MSNBC, etc. I just didn't like the way it made the Rebels appear. Less noble, less heroic, more ... a-holes. |
I genuinely liked that aspect of it. I'm not super into black/white morality - personally I like my fictional heroes (or anti-heroes) and factions nuanced. Pulling context from the headlines of the last fifty years (yes, it's on CNN now - but FARC, the Viet Kong, and Mujahideen are just as old of ideas to us as the Nazis were to Lucas in the late 70s) only makes Star Wars feel more real. |
Yes, it does make it more realistic. And see my next post...
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