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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:12 am Post subject: The Economy of the Empire |
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What economic model do you think best applies to the Empire? Obviously, free market capitalism isn't an option, yet many large corporations exist. I'm inclined to think that Palpatine followed the fascist economic model, in that corporations are given a relatively free reign contingent upon service to the state, with the state dictating general direction for the economy without exerting the sort of hands-on approach found in socialism, where industries would be nationalized by the state.
Just me rambling, and it's past my bedtime, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:42 am Post subject: |
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I'd tend toward looking at the Empire/Republic as a whole as following a confederate model, similar to the EU. Each economy works more or less independently, with the Empire/Republic being the connective tissue that helps facilitate trade and provides some limited standards (that are almost never enforced).
So, individual planets or regions may have any kind of system (hey, maybe Naboo is secretly feudal, and the Trade Federation wanted to open markets there), but they use a single currency externally, and deal with each other through the medium of Empire. Corporations may exist within systems or regions, but they may also play on the Imperial playing field as near-states.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I could see that for the Republic, but I don't see the Empire, and especially not the Emperor, taking such a hands-off approach. I get the impression from the EU that many of the major corporate heads (KDY, Seinar, etc.) were early allies of Palpatine, even before the declaration of the Empire, and that they were willing participants in the Empire's military built-up (which made them extremely wealthy in the process). It would follow that they were given a lot of leeway, so long as they stayed loyal to Palpatine, but any independence that implies would vanish if Palpatine felt they needed to be removed.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:06 am Post subject: |
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I think you're right about the Empire generally having an economy that we associate with fascist regimes. It would be the ultimate crony-capitalism.
I do think that the Republic could have been more EU-like, but it begs the question of what the Trade Federation vs. Naboo conflict was all about. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | I think you're right about the Empire generally having an economy that we associate with fascist regimes. It would be the ultimate crony-capitalism. |
My only reservation here is that, if crony capitalism is defined as | Quote: | | An economy in which success in business depends on close relationships between business people and government officials, |
then the "ultimate crony-capitalism" would be a system in which the sole measure of success is a corporation's relationship with high ranking government officials, even if that corporation is the economic equivalent of a festering turd that produces nothing useful.
I may be taking this too literally.
Either way, I agree there is definitely a crony-capitalism system in effect, but the corporations in question still have to produce a serviceable product; their largest client is the Imperial military, after all. While I can see Palpatine tolerating an arrangement where the Empire buys a useless product in trade for political advantage with the corporate heads, I do think it's an arrangement he would discard the instant something better comes along.
| Quote: | | I do think that the Republic could have been more EU-like, but it begs the question of what the Trade Federation vs. Naboo conflict was all about. |
The official explanation is that the blockade was in retaliation for the Republic deciding to impose taxes on areas within the Republic that had previously been untaxed. The Trade Federation made heavy use of those areas, and the new taxes would cut deeply into their profits. No explanation is given, however, as to why they singled out Naboo. My theory is that, since Palpatine/Sirius was manipulating the situation from both ends, he may have been a key figure in the Senate's push to tax those areas, with Amidala's support. This would make Naboo a prime target for retaliation.
Of course, this begs the question as to how a blockade of a sovereign planet can be "perfectly legal"...
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I could see that for the Republic, but I don't see the Empire, and especially not the Emperor, taking such a hands-off approach. I get the impression from the EU that many of the major corporate heads (KDY, Seinar, etc.) were early allies of Palpatine, even before the declaration of the Empire, and that they were willing participants in the Empire's military built-up (which made them extremely wealthy in the process). It would follow that they were given a lot of leeway, so long as they stayed loyal to Palpatine, but any independence that implies would vanish if Palpatine felt they needed to be removed. |
And while that might be the general way of it, I also don't know that they would do too much to interfere with individual systems so long as those systems were operating within their requirements. The Empire gives corporations more leeway, but why interfere on an agricultural world that mostly ships out quadrotriticale and imports agricultural droids, if they want to pay everyone in cheese nuggets and worship a god-king who is appropriately deferential to the regional governor?
"The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | And while that might be the general way of it, I also don't know that they would do too much to interfere with individual systems so long as those systems were operating within their requirements. The Empire gives corporations more leeway, but why interfere on an agricultural world that mostly ships out quadrotriticale and imports agricultural droids, if they want to pay everyone in cheese nuggets and worship a god-king who is appropriately deferential to the regional governor? |
But this would be consistent with the fascist model, as well. | Quote: | | An inherent aspect of fascist economies was economic dirigisme, meaning an economy where the government exerts strong directive influence over investment, as opposed to having a merely regulatory role. In general, apart from the nationalizations of some industries, fascist economies were based on private individuals being allowed property and private initiative, but these were contingent upon service to the state. |
A hallmark of a Confederation, is a weak central government composed of multiple, strong sub-governments. Is it really your intent to argue that Palpatine was a weak central power who could exercise only partial control over the multiple constituent "strong states" that made up the Empire?
As I said before, I can see it as a possibility for the Republic, and certainly for the Separatists (they are the Confederation of Independent States, after all). The Empire, however, is the definition of a strong central government. They may permit constituent states and organizations agency (i.e. the power to act), but this is not the same as having true freedom, as that power to act is dependent on power being vested by the Empire, not personal freedom. It is power that can be revoked without notice or recourse.
| Quote: | | "The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station." |
But again, the regional governor's authority derives not from himself, but from his position within the Empire, and his continued authority is contingent on him following Imperial dictates. He may have direct control over his territory, but this does not give him authority to secede from the Empire and set up an independent government.
In a Confederacy, there is actual freedom. In a fascist regime, there is only the illusion. Any freedom you have under fascism is contingent on the consent of higher authority.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | The official explanation is that the blockade was in retaliation for the Republic deciding to impose taxes on areas within the Republic that had previously been untaxed. The Trade Federation made heavy use of those areas, and the new taxes would cut deeply into their profits. No explanation is given, however, as to why they singled out Naboo. My theory is that, since Palpatine/Sirius was manipulating the situation from both ends, he may have been a key figure in the Senate's push to tax those areas, with Amidala's support. This would make Naboo a prime target for retaliation. |
The novel Cloak of Deception, which takes place in the months leading up to TPM, goes a long way to explain this. Yes Palpatine/Sidious was the key figure in manipulating the taxation issue on both ends. And in the film itself, there is reason overtly given for singling out Naboo. Palpatine said to Amidala, "I feel confident our situation will create a strong sympathy vote for us. I will be chancellor." Naboo was singled out to get him elected to Supreme Chancellor, which of course the long game was to become Emperor.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: The Economy of the Empire |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm inclined to think that Palpatine followed the fascist economic model, in that corporations are given a relatively free reign contingent upon service to the state, with the state dictating general direction for the economy without exerting the sort of hands-on approach found in socialism, where industries would be nationalized by the state. |
That's the way I've seen it for multi-planetary corporations, which any corporation important to the Empire would be. However strictly planetary corporations may have a greater degree of autonomy, being more subject to their local economies and governments. Even after ANH, planets have greatly various degrees of Imperial control. Many planets are left more to their own devices as long as they pay their due Imperial tribute/taxes, so local companies may just support their planet in whatever way they do and the planet pays taxes to the Empire. However if a local company is even suspected to be doing business with the Alliance, the Empire can come smashing in and handle it as they see fit. According to a deleted scene in ANH, the Empire can and does nationalize small industries, and I don't see why they couldn't do that here and there but still maintain the overall fascist model on a galactic scale. But then again maybe Biggs was just being dramatic and the Empire may do more heavy-handed "redirection" of local economies then outright nationalizations.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:16 am Post subject: Re: The Economy of the Empire |
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| Whill wrote: | | That's the way I've seen it for multi-planetary corporations, which any corporation important to the Empire would be. However strictly planetary corporations may have a greater degree of autonomy, being more subject to their local economies and governments. Even after ANH, planets have greatly various degrees of Imperial control. Many planets are left more to their own devices as long as they pay their due Imperial tribute/taxes, so local companies may just support their planet in whatever way they do and the planet pays taxes to the Empire. However if a local company is even suspected to be doing business with the Alliance, the Empire can come smashing in and handle it as they see fit. According to a deleted scene in ANH, the Empire can and does nationalize small industries, and I don't see why they couldn't do that here and there but still maintain the overall fascist model on a galactic scale. But then again maybe Biggs was just being dramatic and the Empire may do more heavy-handed "redirection" of local economies then outright nationalizations. |
There was mention in, IIRC, Tramp Freighters, of a rural, heavily forested planet, with a well-armed and fearless native population with a strong tradition of free speech and independence. Per the backstory, the Empire decided there was nothing on the planet worth the cost of pacifying it (which would be heavy indeed) and settled for putting a heavy tariff on all imports and exports. I'd say the Empire's decision as to how hands-on they wanted to be would vary on a case-by-case basis.
And while nationalization of private property and industry is a factor in both socialist and fascist systems, socialism seems more apt to do so as part of government policy as it moves further and further left, until you hit communism, where everything is owned by the state and they just let you use it for them. Under fascism, it seems to be based less on state policy than as a result of one's loyalty to the state.
Of course, loyalty to the state also means that, should the state come to you and say "we need to put a military installation in the middle of your farm", you had better let them do it.
That's also where the crony capitalism relationships would come into play. Consider this scenario:Small, Ltd, a start-up company, invents an innovative new product. Big, Inc, wants access to that product, but after negotiations, decides they aren't willing to pay what Small, Ltd. is asking for it. Instead, the president of Big, Inc. speaks to the local Imperial Governor / Moff / Whatever (who also happens to own stock in Big, Inc.) Shortly thereafter, the owner of Small, Ltd. is brought up on false charges of Aiding and Abetting the Rebellion. He is hustled off to a prison planet, and Small, Ltd. and all its holdings are confiscated by the Empire, who almost immediately turn around and "sell" Small, Ltd. and all its assets (including the revolutionary new tech) to Big, Inc.
It would be consistent with the fascist and crony capitalist models. And would probably make a good character back story, too.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: The Economy of the Empire |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | It would be consistent with the fascist and crony capitalist models. And would probably make a good character back story, too. |
Yeah, I definitely see that as happening in the Empire. To a lesser extent in the Republic (there's always corruption).
I suppose my perception of the Empire being hands-off in the case of functional systems stems from a perception of the size of the empire... there's so many system that it is easier for the Empire, unless motivated, to simply let them function.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: The Economy of the Empire |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | It would be consistent with the fascist and crony capitalist models. And would probably make a good character back story, too. |
Yeah, I definitely see that as happening in the Empire. To a lesser extent in the Republic (there's always corruption). |
Certainly in the Old Republic. The New Republic would likely have more than a few who are trying to go about "business as usual", but would be more actively opposed by the new government.
| Quote: | | I suppose my perception of the Empire being hands-off in the case of functional systems stems from a perception of the size of the empire... there's so many system that it is easier for the Empire, unless motivated, to simply let them function. |
Governments can be hands-off for different reasons. A confederacy might be hands-off because the central government lacks the official power to put hands on except in the most extreme circumstances, whereas a fascist dictatorship might not particularly care what a planet does, so long as they pay their taxes, obey the laws and don't support the Rebellion.
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: The Economy of the Empire |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | I suppose my perception of the Empire being hands-off in the case of functional systems stems from a perception of the size of the empire... there's so many system that it is easier for the Empire, unless motivated, to simply let them function. |
Governments can be hands-off for different reasons. A confederacy might be hands-off because the central government lacks the official power to put hands on except in the most extreme circumstances, whereas a fascist dictatorship might not particularly care what a planet does, so long as they pay their taxes, obey the laws and don't support the Rebellion. |
I agree with these statements. The Empire is so big that the fascist central authority can't micromanage all worlds, but it doesn't need to.
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