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JironGhrad
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 152
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 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | In connection, remember that the hull stresses involved are completely opposite between space and water. Where a ship in space is resisting the internal atmosphere trying to push out into the surrounding vacuum, a ship underwater will be resisting massive external pressure of water trying to push inward. |
This is an important point. For space vessels not designed to enter atmosphere (Apollo lunar modules for example), the cabin exterior was little thicker than aluminum foil. |
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| JironGhrad wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | In connection, remember that the hull stresses involved are completely opposite between space and water. Where a ship in space is resisting the internal atmosphere trying to push out into the surrounding vacuum, a ship underwater will be resisting massive external pressure of water trying to push inward. |
This is an important point. For space vessels not designed to enter atmosphere (Apollo lunar modules for example), the cabin exterior was little thicker than aluminum foil. |
OTOH, the Apollo craft didn't have particle shields, which the ship would.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | A point worth considering is that the only dual mode ship in existence (the MonCal DeepWater-Class Light Freighter) has to spend a round (?) reconfiguring from flight mode to submersible mode. The exact rule is in Stock Ships, which I don't have available at the moment.
In connection, remember that the hull stresses involved are completely opposite between space and water. Where a ship in space is resisting the internal atmosphere trying to push out into the surrounding vacuum, a ship underwater will be resisting massive external pressure of water trying to push inward. |
Point taken.. So perhaps only ships built BY aquadic races such as the Mon-cal can be dual configured from the get go. All others need a full on retrofit, and it takes a minute to switch the internal shields etc over from space TO sea?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Point taken.. So perhaps only ships built BY aquatic races such as the Mon-cal can be dual configured from the get go. All others need a full on retrofit, and it takes a minute to switch the internal shields etc over from space TO sea? |
Here's the appropriate section on the DeepWater from Stock Ships: | Quote: | The DeepWater has one other unique feature: it is submersible, capable of landing on ocean floors or sea beds up to a depth of one kilometer. While underwater, the ship's primary thrust and maneuverability are supplied by a magnetohydrodynamic engine.
Before traveling underwater, a DeepWater must repressurize the interior atmosphere and reconfigure the shield system. While traveling in space, the vessel's design is intended to keep pressure and atmosphere in' when underwater, the interior air pressure and hull bracing must be altered to keep water and pressure out. The shield system must be adjusted to withstand the awesome pressures of ocean depth (and to prevent water from entering and damaging key electronic systems). This configuration cannot withstand blaster bolts and only a miniscule amount of physical damage, and thus must be altered again for space travel). |
So, there is no Time Required value given for switching from one mode to the other. The main changes are in the Shield dice. There isn't even a Speed listed for underwater travel. Typical Stock Ships...
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds almost like that ship is a Special case, and normally ships CAN'T land in water/go underneath the surface..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Sounds almost like that ship is a Special case, and normally ships CAN'T land in water/go underneath the surface.. |
I don't know if I'd go that far. Obviously, ships can be designed to go underwater, and since ships can already be modified a great deal, I'd allow it at a price. Obviously, a stat would be needed for the auxiliary drive, and it would take up cargo space, but if a PC wanted it badly enough, I would allow it.
It has a certain utility to it, both for smugglers and special ops units, where hiding your ship under a thousand meters of water to evade detection.
It could also be the SWU extension of SEAL operations, where commandos are deployed from submerged ships and use SCUBA gear to swim to shore and back, at which point, the concealed ship motors several hundred kilometers away before resurfacing and flying off into space.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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It might also be an attractive option for a scout, to allow his ship to make a more detailed analysis of a planet by surveying under water, rather than just from the air or from orbit.
In fact, if you look at how WEG structured particle shields for 2R&E (by making them augment Hull dice by +2D), it's possible that a ship with this mod is simply diverting power from the energy shields to the ship's particle shields.
Also, there is a lot of similarities between particle shields & magnetic shields and Trek-type structural integrity field systems. The SIF system projects a coterminous force field along the hull and structural members (which are, in turn, fitted with energy wave-guide systems to better interface with the field) to better resist the stresses of high-C-fraction maneuvers. Magnetic shielding has a similar effect...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Sounds almost like that ship is a Special case, and normally ships CAN'T land in water/go underneath the surface.. |
I don't know if I'd go that far. Obviously, ships can be designed to go underwater, and since ships can already be modified a great deal, I'd allow it at a price. Obviously, a stat would be needed for the auxiliary drive, and it would take up cargo space, but if a PC wanted it badly enough, I would allow it.. |
It would have to be PRICEY, like in the realm of 75% of the ships "NEW" cost possibly to 100% or even more, and require starship Engineering to make said mods, rather than just base Starship repair
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Or, you just stick one of these on:
| Page 29 - Scum & Villainy Conversion wrote: |
Amphibious seals
Model: Mon Cal aquaseal package 389-D
Cost: 4,000
Availability: 2
Game Notes: This upgrade allows a ship to function as a submarine in addition to performing as a space vehicle. Pressure seals and special engine protection prevents water from damaging critical components, as well as allows the ship to endure the high water pressure. However, the ship may only move one tenth its atmosphere speed. This upgrade also allows a ship to land in a body of water.
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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You know, an alternative, mechanical solution to this is to have various depths/pressures cause certain die codes of damage, which are resisted by the hull rating. Spend too long underwater, and you're going to wind up with serious systems damage.
Just pulling numbers out of the Sarlaac, here...
Up to 200m - 3D per hour
Up to 1000m - 5D per hour
Up to 4000m - 8D per hour
Up to 6000m - 12D per hour
So, taking your standard YT-1300, it will probably be OK in up to 200m of water more or less indefinitely... 4D Hull v. 3D pressure. Taking it much below 200m is likely to result in damage, though, and trying to deep dive in it is going to mess you up quite quickly. A Tie Fighter, on the other hand, is really pushing it going into any water... its 2D hull won't avoid damage in 3D pressure for long.
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"I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | Or, you just stick one of these on:
| Page 29 - Scum & Villainy Conversion wrote: |
Amphibious seals
Model: Mon Cal aquaseal package 389-D
Cost: 4,000
Availability: 2
Game Notes: This upgrade allows a ship to function as a submarine in addition to performing as a space vehicle. Pressure seals and special engine protection prevents water from damaging critical components, as well as allows the ship to endure the high water pressure. However, the ship may only move one tenth its atmosphere speed. This upgrade also allows a ship to land in a body of water.
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Nice find, but wow is that way too cheap.. If i was to price it, it would be based ON the ship type (fighter, freighter, bulk freighter etc) as well as size/hull...
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Savar
Captain
Joined: 14 Feb 2015
Posts: 589
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Raven Redstar wrote: | Or, you just stick one of these on:
| Page 29 - Scum & Villainy Conversion wrote: |
Amphibious seals
Model: Mon Cal aquaseal package 389-D
Cost: 4,000
Availability: 2
Game Notes: This upgrade allows a ship to function as a submarine in addition to performing as a space vehicle. Pressure seals and special engine protection prevents water from damaging critical components, as well as allows the ship to endure the high water pressure. However, the ship may only move one tenth its atmosphere speed. This upgrade also allows a ship to land in a body of water.
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Nice find, but wow is that way too cheap.. If i was to price it, it would be based ON the ship type (fighter, freighter, bulk freighter etc) as well as size/hull... |
I second that I would put out at a function of the ship being modified. |
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D+1
Cadet
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:42 am Post subject: |
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It's not exactly an unheard of notion that starships could go underwater. It's been done a few times in <gasp> Star Trek. Traveller rules allowed it. I think Space Opera did too. Certainly we've seen underwater vehicles in Star Wars, just not anything the size of a tramp freighter (I don't think...). It was never a notion _I_ particularly liked. Never made sense to me, or just didn't fit my notion of aesthetics for scifi games, but I could tolerate it.
It is true that vacuum is a seriously less powerful force than pressure underwater, but for a ship with shields that protect it from particles and energy when travelling the speed of light SURELY it cannot be "logically" argued that those same shields can't protect it from the pressures of water. In fact, the shields alone must logically be capable of preventing the water from even coming in contact with the ship (pressure of a particle at light speed vs, a even dozens of atmospheres?).
On the other hand star wars ships have been seen a number of times to literally scrape hulls so shields obviously can't prevent penetration by a large enough mass or enough energy (such as blasters/lasers). Water pressing in from all sides might qualify as at the VERY least limiting the depth to which a vessel can descend. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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THing is on SW shields, by the rules you need to either put them in an arc or all over which severely reduces their effectiveness.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | THing is on SW shields, by the rules you need to either put them in an arc or all over which severely reduces their effectiveness. |
Energy shields, yes, but particle shields provide full coverage to all arcs. Particle shields contribute 2D to the Hull value of pretty much every starship, and do so regardless of which direction the shooting is coming from. As such, re-routing power from the combat shields to reenforce the particle shields preparatory to going under water is still a workable option.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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