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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Rusharn wrote: | | I was thinking maybe a mono molecular net made of high density material the could be setup, like the sub nets for World War II, Hard to detect so a Cloaked or sensor dead ship approaching from out side the registered space lanes hits it and it alerts the defense grid. |
The Imperial Sourcebook mentions the Hyperspace Pulse-Mass Generator, which is effectively a hyperspace "pebble spreader", creating a dense cloud of mass in hyperspace that affects ships that pass through the cloud.
And by "affects", I mean "sandblasts out of existence," as the starship will be crossing through the field at several hundred times the speed of light...
Combine it with a stationary version of this and you have a similar effect.
Alternately, the pulse-mass emitters could provide enough sensory feedback to let the projector operators detect the distortion of a starship passing through the pulse-mass field (and being shredded by it), but not with enough clarity to tell what it was (apart from general size).
| Quote: | | Are their any rules for colliding with an object in hyperspace? |
There are a couple possibilities on the Astrogation Mishap Table...
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 12:46 am Post subject: |
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You also have those hyperwave EMP bombs used by warlord Zjini in the wraith novels..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | You also have those hyperwave EMP bombs used by warlord Zsinj in the wraith novels.. |
That too, although it isn't quite as close to the concept of a submarine net...
As an aside, while I like the idea, Aaron Alston took the capabilities of the Hyperwave Signal Interceptor a bit outside of how it was intended. Per the SW Sourcebook, it only detects ships entering and exiting hyperspace, not ships that are still in hyperspace. The scene in Wraith Squadron shows the X-Wings being caught by the Empion mine just a few seconds before they dropped out of hyperspace, not just after they dropped out.
So, either the HSI needs to be redefined so as to detect ships passing nearby in hyperspace, or a new sensor needs to be designed. If it were up to me, I'd replace Alston's use of the HSI with something like the Hyperspace Flux-Net Transceiver that I made up for the Observer-Class, only on a much smaller scale (a sensor radius of a few seconds in hyperspace, rather than several minutes).
It's also worth noting that, while Gravity Well Projectors (i.e. the kind that can project a gravity well some distance away) are relatively rare and expensive, a simple Gravity Well Generator (one that simply projects a gravity well centered on itself) is much less complicated, and able to be incorporated into a one-use disposable device.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10402
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| JironGhrad wrote: | | ...lack of evidence, is not evidence of lack. |
Word.
| Rusharn wrote: | | The thing is I hate saying to my players, to completely disregard the only Star Wars movie they have seen. |
 Your players are playing WEG Star Wars and haven't even seen the classic trilogy?? Why?! Really they should watch all of the movies, but it is absolutely imperative they be shown the classic films at once!!
| Rusharn wrote: | | JJ Abrams... is one of the worst Sci Fi writers and directors out there. |
Of course you're entitled to that personal opinion, but objectively, JJ Abrams has been extremely successful.
| Rusharn wrote: | | Star Wars is in a Galaxy far, far away, not in another dimension where the laws of physics are entirely different. |
Physics, LOL. Lightsabers, blasters, artificial gravity, repulsorlifts, hyperdrives, inertia dampening, relativistic shielding, sound in space, etc. are not based on physics. Do you like TESB? I love it, but it's absolutely horrible with physics. The asteroid that the Falcon flew into is not anywhere near large enough to have the gravity that Han, Leia and Chewie walk in, or to maintain an atmosphere with sufficient air pressure so they don't need a space suit. At the end when the Falcon takes off the galaxy is spinning waaay too fast from the Rebel Fleet's perspective. Star Wars has terrestrial planets with moons a small fraction of the planet's mass yet they both somehow have gravity and atmosphere nearly equal to Earth. The Tatooine system makes no sense to real world physics. All of this makes no sense to real world science. The body of evidence indicates that the laws of physics are entirely different in Star Wars.
The scientific gobbledygook explaining Episodes I-VI is not real science. Saying TFA is unrealistic because the previous movies follow the laws of physics is not only a pointless argument, but also extremely incorrect. In my experience, those who discriminately criticize only certain aspects of a fantasy world as unrealistic while simultaneously accepting other fantastic aspects as realistic are generally unscientific people or just ignore the problems with films they like. If you like a Star Wars movie then you devise explanations to make it work for you. If you don't like a Star Wars movie anyway, then the "science" of it shouldn't matter and there's no need to bash it. Just categorically disregard the entire movie, and move on.
| Rusharn wrote: | | ...Episode VII was just bad, because it could not suspend my disbelief, on almost any point of plot or action in the movie. The thing is I hate saying to my players, to completely disregard... |
Bash much? 8) In my experience, fans that categorically disapprove of one film (or trilogy) in a franchise tend to look for things to criticize in a vain effort to support their opinion, more than the long laundry list of criticisms leading to the conclusion. Opinions don't need supported. If you don't like it, you don't like it, and that is good enough for me.
Is there some constructive purpose I'm missing for your relentless, "...and another thing... and another thing..."? Are you hoping that the rest of us can provide explanations that put you more at ease with the things you can't accept? It sure doesn't come across as seeking help from fellow fans, but I'd like to believe that you are. Are you trying to sway others to your view? That would seem to exemplify the old expression "misery loves company". If so, please don't. Please, let's all just live and let live. Being blessed with the ability to suspend disbelief enough to enjoy any of these films is a wonderful thing. If someone enjoys TCW and Rebels I am happy for them and a little jealous.
I'm not trying to censor anyone. Having and expressing negative opinions about Star Wars here are ok. But we just want to make sure that the expression of excessive negativity, especially about live action films, has a purpose beyond pointless bashing.
IMO the general fan disapproval with TFA seems similar to TMP. They are both new episodes after a decade+ without new SW films and they both introduce new concepts to Star Wars, so there is more to possibly contradict years of development of personal fan visions of the SWU. If the trilogies all came out back to back I don't think there would be nearly as much fan unrest as there is for these first episodes.
| Rusharn wrote: | | So reading this thread no one has yet to explain the hiding in hyperspace. |
They have, but perhaps not to your satisfaction.
I'm curious why your game is set in the time period of TFA, apparently with the same general set-up of galactic powers, if you don't like the movie. It just seems an odd choice for someone who disapproves of the movie as much you do. Do your players like the movie a lot more than you so you are compromising with them? It's your SWU and of course you can do whatever you want with it, but I'm just trying to better wrap my head around your point of view.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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OK, in case you really are looking for solutions because you want to like the film more than you do...
| Rusharn wrote: | | My impression was you could only go in straight lines in hyperspace. |
That's not my impression. Nothing moves in a strait line in realspace. Even our manmade Earth spaceships (probes and manned missions to the moon) follow curved courses due to the effect from local gravity of our sun and the interaction with planetary bodies. Expand it to any scale you want. Our star system travels through the galaxy on a curved path due to the gravitational interaction with local star systems and the galactic core. The galaxies in our local group of galaxies are moving on curved paths with respect to each other, again based on gravitational interaction. It is established in Star Wars that gravity from realspace objects does have a gravity shadow in hyperspace, which means ships moving through hyperspace have to move with respect to galactic gravity and local gravity of the areas they move through. Given the fantastic miracle of hyperspace, it would be even more unrealistic if starships in hyperspace didn't also fly on curved paths.
| Rusharn wrote: | | Ok fine, there are the hyperspace satellites that remained stationary but they jumped in at the place they were staying, which means if Bo and his group were stationary then they would have to be really close to the Starkiller when they did that. |
Even though there is an EU precedent, I was never a fan of the idea of things being relatively "stationary" (actually slow speeds) in hyperspace, so that explanation wouldn't work for me either.
| Rusharn wrote: | | If they were circling around the Star Killer, then that causes more questions, like how tight of a circle can you make? Can you change course while you are in hyperspace? |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | In Galladinium's Fantastic Technology, there is an experimental device called the N-CRAB (Nav-Computer Route Astrogation Bypass) that allows ships to alter to a new hyperspace course without dropping into real space to recalculate. The tech is clunky and glitchy as of the Classic Era, but thirty years' time could have allowed it to be refined sufficiently to be installed in military and high-end civilian vessels... En route, they use their Nav-Computers to plot a new course that takes them into a wide polar orbit around Starkiller Base's star, passing near the base itself on every orbit. |
Thanks, CR. That seems to make a little more sense than the much tighter orbit around the Starkiller planet itself in hyperspace. Even at a very low "lightspeed" orbit around the star near Starkiller's orbit, the Resistance X-Wings could pass the Starkiller planet many times a second, so they would easily be in position to come out of hyperspace near the planet any time the call comes through. The original six movies already show that you can exit hyperspace to a very precise realspace location.
| Rusharn wrote: | | More so if they are circling the Star Killer there is a near by sun, does that mean that while you are in hyper space the radiation from said sun doesn't affect you? How about solar winds or flares? What about particles thrown off from the sun? |
The Starkiller wouldn't be any closer to it's sun than any habitable planet would be from its star. If the Starkiller planet was far enough away that solar radiation would not be a problem for the base, its inhabitants, and First Order starships, then it likewise wouldn't be any problem for the X-Wings. I don't see any reason that solar radiation effects things moreso in hyperspace than in realspace.
| Rusharn wrote: | | Another problem with this scene is that it changes the entire nature of warfare in Star Wars. If a fleet or raider can just linger close to your planets hiding in hyperspace while a scout gives the attack command, this would make raiding and surprise attacks almost impossible to stop or avoid as well as allow a reliable precision of timing that has never been demonstrated before in any Star Wars material I can recall. |
Yes, the X-Wings' ability to orbit stars in hyperspace is something new, but it doesn't have to be quite the galactic game-changer you make it out to be. Tell your players that it is not possible for ships larger than starfighters, and even then some rare special device or astogational program makes it possible. Maybe it is something that only the Resistance has developed the know-how to do, so this tactic is not available to every local pirate group.
| Rusharn wrote: | | Up to this point, you accelerate and decelerate into and out of hyperspace. This means at some point, no matter how short of a time, he is at just a faction below light speed. |
In one dimension or another, yes. The passage of time and mass of objects moving at near the speed of light increases relative to objects moving at non-relativistic speeds. So a real problem with accelerating ships near the speed of light is that the increase in mass of the ship would require a increasingly near infinite amount of force to accelerate the ship. (To my knowledge this issue hasn’t even been addressed by the EU or canon at all.) A physical object can’t be accelerated to the speed of light because it would require the sum of all the energy in the universe to achieve. Ships cannot be made to move at the speed of light or faster in the real world. The equations calculating time dilation produce imaginary numbers when velocities greater than the speed of light are entered, but it was established by hand-wave that in hyperspace, time seems to pass the same as it does flying normal sublight speeds and on planets. With the time dilation that occurs for objects accelerating and decelerating through relativistic speeds, even a small fraction of a second for planets would be an increasingly near infinite amount of time passage for the starship. The EU's hand-wave for this is "relativistic shielding" on ships which somehow suppress physics. That's how they say hyperspace travelers don't experience rapid aging with every jump to lightspeed. I personally can accept the miracle of hyperspace much easier than that "technology."
Since it would be impossible to even accelerate a ship to near the speed of light in realspace anyway, it just makes the most sense to me that the transition into and from hyperspace actually occurs significantly below the speed of light. I think of the natural state of everything in hyperspace as being faster than the speed of light, and "going to lightspeed" is achieved by opening a portal to hyperspace in front of the ship, and the nature of hyperspace itself "sucks" the ship into hyperspace (thus the rapid acceleration) and once there it quickly accelerates the ship up to and beyond the speed of light, it's natural state for everything. My hyperspace is a high velocity, high pressure place. Then reverting to realspace is accomplished by the ship decelerating to below light speed at a certain threshold that "ejects" it from hyperspace (at the same speed below the speed of light as entering hyperspace), and the "sucking" effect from the rapidly closing hyperspace portal behind the ship completes it's deceleration back to normal sublight speeds, which the realspace universe likes as a conservation of energy of sorts. On screen evidence for this is that the apparent "lightspeed" acceleration and deceleration shown is already well below relativistic speeds. Most memorable in my mind is when the Falcon and the Rebel Fleet come out of hyperspace at Endor. In the cockpit's view, Endor gets closer much faster than normal sublight speeds, but waaay slower than what it would be at relativistic speeds, even at the beginning of it.
So in this model, the starships are never traveling at "just a fraction" below the speed of light in realspace where relativity is, because if they were they would need near infinite energy and the ships crew and passengers would grow old and die before even entering hyperspace. Not to mention that the miraculous "inertia dampening" tech would have to work to a way more ridiculous degree than it does in my version of hyperspace travel.
| Rusharn wrote: | | My players already want to jump to hyperspace in a planet's atmosphere because Han Solo came out of hyperspace in atmosphere. Which goes in to the ludicrousness of that scene. How far out from the Star Killer's surface has the energy shield? How close was the Falcon when it came out of hyperspace? Watching the scene it looks like it was IN the atmosphere. What was the speed of the Falcon when it hit the atmosphere? How did the Falcon resist the heat of a reentry like that?… I know Han came out of hyperspace on the other side of the force field but if you watch the scene, Han goes into the atmosphere while IN light speed. When he comes out he is already right there against a mountain clearly well within the atmosphere… Last time I checked my physics the heat transfer of something like a 5 gram meteorite going at a quarter of light speed at a 90 degree angle translated to something like thirty or forty thousand lighting bolts within the faction of the second it takes to travel through the atmosphere. The Falcon is a lot larger than a 5 gram meteorite… More so at what point of contact does the intersection of something in hyperspace interact with mass of the real space. From Clone Wars I was under the impression you could not hyperspace through a Nebula without being destroyed. If that is the case shouldn't a gaseous atmosphere of a planet pose the same dangers? |
See above for the speed factor. An additional simple possibility is that the Falcon didn't actually come out of hyperspace in the atmosphere of the Starkiller planet. Perhaps they came out of hyperspace right under the shield but still above the atmosphere and then began the massive deceleration from reentry speed to sublight speed. Then there could have been a delay between the actual transition to realspace and the display showing what was beyond their cockpit window. Maybe this delay had to do with the deactivating the safeties that allowed the ship to get that close to the planet before coming out of hyperspace. Cinematically, it sure was more exciting the way they showed it in the movie! And as a side note, in general The Clone Wars cartoon (and Rebels) do not reflect the reality of the films in a very long list of ways I won’t bother going into.
If you really want to pick at that, then think about the fact that the reversion from hyperspace to realspace visually coincides with a lever being pulled down in the Falcon cockpit, which seems to imply that actual moment of reverting to realspace is chosen by the pilot and completely with human precision of a hand lever. For sense of scale, light from our sun moving at exactly the speed of light gets to Earth in about 8.3 seconds. It has been stated that even a slow "lightspeed" could be thousands of times the speed of light. Considering the immense distances travelled at these fantastic FTL velocities, there is no way the reversion of realspace could be simply up to human dexterity and sense of timing watching a counter because in the space of a fraction of a second you could overshoot your mark by light-years (or plow into a planet). So the only way what I see in the Falcon cockpit in all the films makes sense to me is that the timing of the exact reversion to realspace is handled by the navicomputer, and the lever is just a transference of power or something that can be left up to human hand/mechanical lever timing.
| Rusharn wrote: | | How did the scanners of the Star Killer not detect something going near the speed of light coming through the atmosphere? ...So assuming that the Falcon has something to protect it from the heat effect of atmospheric friction, I am not sure how the side effects of a reentry like that could not be noticed by the staff of the Star Killer. |
See above for the speed factor, and beyond that why would they be set to detect something that's never been done before? And how do we know that they didn't detect it, but just wouldn't have any reason to believe that something could get through the shields so just disregarded it as a glitch. "Lieutenant, you mean to tell me that a light freighter miraculously appeared under our planetary shield and rapidly descended towards Mount Rusharn before it disappeared from the sensors? That's absurd. Run a full diagnostic of Com-Scan at once!”
| Rusharn wrote: | | Where are the shock waves, sonic booms? |
Absorbed and dissipated by the miracle of energy shields?
| Rusharn wrote: | | In my game the bad guys have a dozen NPCs with stats similar to Han Solo not to mention if Han by himself can figure it out, then a military think tank can as well. |
Wow, this might be the thing I disagree with you most on. Han Solo is my favorite Star Wars character. I see him as very special and unique in the galaxy. In my SWU, the bad guys have very few to none like Han Solo. Perhaps very few in the galaxy could handle the coordination of astrogation and space piloting skill requirements. Perhaps the Falcon has a few special modifications that no stock military ships have to make it more possible. Perhaps it wouldn't work with ships larger that a light freighter. Perhaps it is not that anyone hasn't thought of doing it, but perhaps it would not be seriously considered due to the danger involved. Or, perhaps no one else had thought of such a crazy idea. The equations that Albert Einstein derived to calculate how mass increases and time dilates as an object approaches the speed of light were not arrived at through any sort of high level calculus, which he was very skilled at using. He only used high school level algebra and geometry! I recreated his work on special relativity myself in 12th grade. His genius wasn't in how he came to them. He was just the first person that thought of doing it. The genius was creativity and originality. If your SWU's bad guys have a whole think tank of people like Han Solo, then you must not hold the character to nearly the same level of awesome that I do.
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Last edited by Whill on Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:22 am; edited 8 times in total |
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JironGhrad
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | OK, in case you really are looking for solutions because you want to like the film more than you do...
(snip)
If your SWU's bad guys have a whole think tank of people like Han Solo, then you must not hold the character to nearly the same level of awesome that I do. |
Just... +infinity.
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Tinman
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Dec 2013
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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On the subject of hiding in hyperspace, something sort of like this was the case in one of our campaigns, but was the result of creative use of something which happened by accident during a particular adventure.
We played through Otherspace and Otherspace II during the earlier parts of a privateering (working for the Rebellion) campaign. (These had to be slightly translated to second edition, as they were written for the first edition rules, and required a few scenario adjustments for the existing group.) In summary, this involved the players accidentally being shunted into an alternate dimension during a bad hyperspace entry, due to damage to their hyperdrive. There was an encounter with the Charon, a very alien race with a religious obsession involving entropy and the destruction of all life. We were able to eventually return to realspace by repairing the hyperdrive and reversing the conditions by which otherspace was reached, escaping the Charon.
However, our captain very wisely downloaded all the data from the nav computer, and determined that the jump to otherspace could be repeated. What had happened the first time was that the nav computer fed the hyperdrive coordinates which were misinterpreted by it due to the damage, and because the safeties weren't working correctly at the time we were shunted into a different continuum because the coordinates it was trying to work with simply did not exist in any hyperspace/realspace context. Naturally, nobody was very interested in encountering the Charon again, so that info went unused for quite a while.
After the destruction of the Charon and their ship, the Desolate, during play of Otherspace II, we ended up using otherspace as a convenient hiding spot a handful of times. The only other person who might have known how to do the same thing was the bounty hunter Zardra, and we suspected that she might be using otherspace in the same way, but we never had confirmation of that. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:14 am Post subject: |
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THere's more Charon out there than just that one groups worth!
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Rusharn
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Apologizes in advance for typos, bad grammar, etc as this is a long response and I am writing the sections during breaks at work, after getting four hours of sleep.
| Quote: | | Surprised Your players are playing WEG Star Wars and haven't even seen the classic trilogy?? Why?! Really they should watch all of the movies, but it is absolutely imperative they be shown the classic films at once!! Surprised |
Solved that this last weekend, though I had them watch the theatrical release not the special editions so they saw what I saw when I was growing up.
| Quote: | | Of course you're entitled to that personal opinion, but objectively, JJ Abrams has been extremely successful. |
Successful does not mean good. Stephanie Myers author of the twilight series may be successful but reading those books, she is not a good writer. JJ Abrams knows how to tap into the younger generation using tried and true media hooks. If you know those hooks his work becomes instantly less impressive. He is not a writer so much as a technician re-purposing older material, specifically pulp fiction and pulp science fiction with a 'modern' skin. But I grew up on Robert Hienlein, Isaac Asimov, Joe Haldeman, William Gibson, Phillip K Dick, George Effinger, Frank Herbert and the farther of the space opera Doc E.E. Smith. Honestly it would probably do the new generation of Science Fiction writers good to reread the classics.
| Quote: |
Bash much? Cool In my experience, fans that categorically disapprove of one film (or trilogy)... |
Actually I am not so much a fan of the works of star wars. ANH was a technical triumph in visuals and presentation and within a Pulp Science Fiction it was good but not without its flaws "Hold your fire there are no life forms, i must have short circuited."
I am not generally entertained by any of the EU material and lean more towards the other Star Based Franchise but that material is not without it's flaws that only seem to grow worse as time passes.
I am ok with certain aspects of writing / movie making in reference to science fiction because there are technical aspects involved. Artificial gravity exists because cost wise it is expensive to shot zero gee shots and sets.
Others are flashy stand ins for existing equipment. Blasters are just guns with a sci fi effects.
Sound in space is because in a visual motion medium sound helps engage the audience.
Then you get into the stuff that makes your science fiction different from others. The the case of star wars, Hyperdrives, repulsorlifts, and lightsabers are staple features, which is fine, but you pretend they are based on science which means at the minimum they should act consistently throughout the medium. When suddenly your fictional piece of equipment miraculously has new uses or behaves a different away (I am looking at you Mr. Deflector Dish) you start drifting away from science fiction and more into fiction or fantasy.
| Quote: | | Is there some constructive purpose I'm missing for your relentless, "...and another thing... and another thing..." |
Would we be having a real conversation if I said TFW sucks and did not give any specifics? By giving specifics I hope for you to see my point of view, whether you dismiss afterwards if fine but if you do not know where I am coming from how can you provide counterpoints to this issues I present?
| Quote: | | I'm not trying to censor anyone. Having and expressing negative opinions about Star Wars here are ok. But we just want to make sure that the expression of excessive negativity, especially about live action films, has a purpose beyond pointless bashing. |
In this case issues with the visual material is generating a specific view and outlining actions that are being taken by my players, had the TFA not caused such an issue I would not being having the discussion which is ultimately to determine certain rationals when dealing with the technical aspects of what is being presented in visual format. Whil my players are not PHD's they can be sometimes annoyingly observant. Empire Strikes Back has already generated a similar face palm issue of: "Wait, the ship can generate an atmosphere around the ship so we don't need space suits to work on the hull? What about when we took out ship underwater?"
My players also noticed the difference of the security response on the Death Star verse the Star Killer. On the Death Star while our heroes had a few moments where they could rest and take stock, they also constantly were running into patrols and having to run, while jumping through closing blast doors or crossing chasms and the ultimate reason for the escape is because the villain let them escape so the heroes could lead him to the secret rebel base.
On the Star Killer the heroes were able to sneak around without even the need to disguise themselves, and in each case they were ambushing guards that did not seem to be very alert.
And personally if Rey does not turn out to be a midi-chlorian infused super genetically engineered clone or something similar I am going to be very disappointed. I mean with all this clone tech laying around it just doesn't seem like its being utilized to its fullest. 
| Quote: | | IMO the general fan disapproval with TFA seems similar to TMP. They are both new episodes after a decade+ without new SW films and they both introduce new concepts to Star Wars, so there is more to possibly contradict years of development of personal fan visions of the SWU. If the trilogies all came out back to back I don't think there would be nearly as much fan unrest as there is for these first episodes. |
For me the issue wasn't so much the new concepts presented by the prequels, its that they didn't feel like they fit in with the original trilogy. The way the movies were presented broke from many conventions in story telling. For example in the Phantom Menace who is the protagonist? From a literary stand point their really isn't one, which creates a disjointed feeling as you watch the movie. It was almost a amateurish mistake.
The thing is TFA suffers from several similar flaws but gets a pass why? Because it's Disney? Or because JJ Abrams? Or because we got to see Han Solo again? Or was it marketing tricks? If you removed all Star Wars references from TFA would we accept the movie on its own merit?
Different can be good, new can be good, but if we are not honest about judging the new material on its merits and being honest about its flaws, then will we get less than we deserve, or worse by not showing any dissenting opinions we blindly accept an opinion crafted by marketers and media departments.
| Quote: | | I'm curious why your game is set in the time period of TFA, apparently with the same general set-up of galactic powers, if you don't like the movie. It just seems an odd choice for someone who disapproves of the movie as much you do. Do your players like the movie a lot more than you so you are compromising with them? It's your SWU and of course you can do whatever you want with it, but I'm just trying to better wrap my head around your point of view. |
Actually I do not have have the same galactic powers, the First Order does not exist in my rendition of the SWU. Instead of having the First Order, I have the Reformed Empire and the New Republic as the two major galactic powers with a League of Non Aligned Worlds and some Powerful Warlords from the Old Empire as major secondary powers. In the campaign the New Republic and Reformed Empire are in a stalemate in galactic positioning so they use hundreds of thousands of Clandestine Agents to engage in a shadow war trying to bring neutral systems and warlords to their side, as well as use espionage against each other in hopes of tipping the balance of power to their favor.
My New Republic is not sitting ideally by, allowing a known hostile entity to build up forces and work on super projects unchecked.
The reason for the time period selection is a few reasons. First my players are more familiar with TFA and Rebels, then any other Star Wars material. Second in the future the players do not have to play second fiddle to anyone. If the Reformed Empire has a spherical super weapon of doom with a convenient weak point to destroy, then they get to be the heroes to do that, without any fear their accomplishments being overshadowed by canon heroes. In the case of my players they are the new generation of Star Wars heroes. Lastly they want to see what I would have done If I was in charge of the new series, basically a put up or shut up challenge.
| Quote: | | That's not my impression. Nothing moves in a strait line in realspace. |
Ok let me clarify that one, it's not that you go in a straight line, but more like you are on a single line rail road track. You can either stop in which case you drop out of hyperspace, be stopped by colliding with something or you go to the end of the line. However with the N-CRAB, this resolves that issue in a game context. For my players to duplicate the same function would need to acquire a military grade, highly expensive component, however they are now aware that this is a tactic that can be used by bad or good guys but because the component is cost prohibitively expensive only special units or squadrons will have them, not entire battle fleets.
| Quote: | | The Starkiller wouldn't be any closer to it's sun than any habitable planet would be from its star. If the Starkiller planet was far enough away that solar radiation would not be a problem for the base, its inhabitants, and First Order starships, then it likewise wouldn't be any problem for the X-Wings. I don't see any reason that solar radiation effects things more so in hyperspace than in realspace. |
This goes to the visuals as displayed in TFA, for a yellow star to be the size it was on screen, the Star Killer base would have to be very close, while the Star killer would be protected by it's shield and I assume some massive repulsor generator or similar tech to keep it from being drawn into the sun at that range. From the visual presented in TFA, in my game the sun's gravitation field would have kicked off the hyperspace safeties if Star Killer's didn't. If circling Star Killer was an option then being that close proximity could make solar radiation an issue, which would again bring up the question if radiation effects ships in Hyperspace. Or we can write it off as JJ Abrams having a problem with dealing with distance remotely realistically in his movies. However, it would still be good to know if WEG did place rules for hyperspace and radiation in a campaign module. If radiation is an issue in Hyperspace this could also create another counter measure that could be used to prevent someone from using a N-CRAB to lurk nearby in hyperspace.
| Quote: | | Yes, the X-Wings' ability to orbit stars in hyperspace is something new, but it doesn't have to be quite the galactic game-changer you make it out to be. Tell your players that it is not possible for ships larger than starfighters, and even then some rare special device or astogational program makes it possible. Maybe it is something that only the Resistance has developed the know-how to do, so this tactic is not available to every local pirate group. |
The N-CRAB is good for this. It is the reason why I came to official rules was to locate something I can point to in written material for the group before going to a house rule.
From my understanding one of the key requirements for Special Relativity is a gravity or near gravity free environment. If Hyperspace operates on those principles it could be that once you enter a sufficiently powerful gravity field you are dragged out of the faster than light state by the field. This could make it literally impossible to pass into Hyperspace until gravity is again at that near zero value. Just a side thought there.
The approach to Endor is one of my reasons that I assume that when exiting hyperspace ships are still traveling at a notable fraction of light speed. In my example a 5 gram object traveling only a quarter of the speed of light for a fraction of a second generated a huge amount of atmospheric friction creating energy equal to tens of thousands of lightning bolts. The Falcon being significantly larger at a quarter of the speed of light even if was only traveling at that speed for a fraction of a second would still generate energy into the atomic weapon ranges.
It was not my impression that the inertia dampening technology in star wars protected star ships from atmospheric friction. Again even if there was a shield system that protected the ship from damage, it would also have to account for the displacement of energy into real space. While someone might be able mistake a smaller amount of energy as a glitch, if someone drops an atomic bomb on them, I doubt a sensor operator or his superior would be dismissing it as a glitch. Even if they ordered a diagnostics, once it comes back that everything is is good working order, said supervisor would then report it.
| Quote: | | An additional simple possibility is that the Falcon didn't actually come out of hyperspace in the atmosphere of the Starkiller planet. Perhaps they came out of hyperspace right under the shield but still above the atmosphere and then began the massive deceleration from reentry speed to sublight speed. Then there could have been a delay between the actual transition to realspace and the display showing what was beyond their cockpit window. |
Given the visuals on the approach to Endor in RoTJ It doesn't seem like the approach is an optical illusion or if it is, it is because of the high speeds involved during the return to real space. In TFA, the Falcon comes out of hyperspace with a mountain right in front of it. If the optical distortion were consistent then we should see him miles above the surface coming through the atmosphere with the mountains coming at the cockpit rapidly before the image intersects with where they really are in real space, which now thinking about it would have been a really awesome visual as well as giving them room for the deceleration.
As for the lever thing I can accept it in the same vain as swords making 'shrink' sounds when you draw or sheath them. They don't in real life because that sound is caused by metal on metal, and if you heard that it means you're damaging your sword, but it is queue to pull the viewer into the action of the scene as well as a marker for the actors and special effects departments. I know the technical real world reason for it thus connect it with the elements of stage craft that make the production crews life easier.
It is why ANH gets a few more passes then TFA as for visuals and effects. ANH had tight budget constraints, and was using new visual techniques, some having never been used on a major motion picture before. You get leeway in my book for that. TFA had a massive budget, with the entire power of Disney studios behind it, with techniques that have been established over the last decade. I will be more critical of a production like that.
| Quote: | | Han Solo is my favorite Star Wars character. I see him as very special and unique in the galaxy. In my SWU, the bad guys have very few to none like Han Solo. |
Ok let us say that Han Solo is one in a Billion. That would mean that the odds are that their are one thousand people on Coruscant of his skill level. The fact that the enemy in question controls a population of over three hundred trillion and only has a dozen people of Han Solo's skill level shows where I place Han Solo in the scheme of things.
More so when I say it takes a military think tank to equal Han Solo's skill let me illustrate what I mean in game terms.
So we get several hundred experts to work on the hyperspace behind the shield equation. So we clock them at the top of their field at 7D. We give them the best mainframes for a modest 3D bonus. We then use the REUP rules and hook up our experts to drugs and cybernetics so they don't get tired or sleepy and they take eight times the duration needed for the calculations for the full 3D they can get from extra time. We then give them a vehicle that is expressly designed for the task for another 3D equipment bonus. We then have them work together for the 2d+2 max cooperation bonus for a grand total of 18D+2. I think that is about right for TFA Han Solo's Astrogation skill.
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Rusharn wrote: | | JJ Abrams knows how to tap into the younger generation using tried and true media hooks. If you know those hooks his work becomes instantly less impressive. He is not a writer so much as a technician re-purposing older material, specifically pulp fiction and pulp science fiction with a 'modern' skin. |
Can't this equally be applied to Lucas, though? He specifically went through the hooks of storytelling, applied it to a story about space wizards with laser swords, and manipulated you in following along with it... inspired specifically by the pulps.
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Tinman
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | THere's more Charon out there than just that one groups worth! |
Oh, most likely there were. However, it wasn't someplace we went to for shore leave. We just occasionally jumped to a conterminous point in otherspace to lay in wait, in order to take a target vessel by surprise. That involved some work though, as we'd have to first send a droid in a smaller craft there and back, to make sure that coterminous location wasn't occupied by anything (dead suns, asteroids, etc.) We pretty much reasoned that any other Charon in otherspace were probably in thought sleep as well, and we had no intentions of waking them up during our brief stays.
Our captain also had to install second backup hyperdrive to use in making those jumps (the hardwired safeties had to be removed.) He wasn't fool enough to meddle with the main drive and risk getting trapped there, with no hope of rescue except by insectoid aliens belonging to a fanatical death cult.
It was just a trick we picked up by happenstance, and wisely kept to ourselves.
We also ended up with an undead pet, which we found wandering around on the Desolate the first time we were there. I don't recall what sort of animal it was, but it had much of its neuroanatomy replaced by micromechanical components by the Charon. We intended to sell it to an engineering or biotechnology company at some point, but never got around to it. We named it Grim. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:57 am Post subject: |
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Did you call it fred??
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| Rusharn wrote: | | The way the movies were presented broke from many conventions in story telling. For example in the Phantom Menace who is the protagonist? From a literary stand point their really isn't one, which creates a disjointed feeling as you watch the movie. It was almost a amateurish mistake. |
While the prequel character arcs were being introduced for Padme, Anakin and Obi-Wan, the protagonist of TPM itself is clearly Qui-Gon Jinn. Even after his death, his story continues through the end of the film in the resurgence of the millennia old Jedi-Sith struggle and Obi-Wan fulfilling his master's dying wish to train the boy. Anakin is the clear protagonist for RotS (of the tragic hero variety), so AotC is actually the film with the least clear protagonist, the weakest episode from a literary perspective that to me feels like it is mainly just there to connect A to C.
| Quote: | | From my understanding one of the key requirements for Special Relativity is a gravity or near gravity free environment. If Hyperspace operates on those principles it could be that once you enter a sufficiently powerful gravity field you are dragged out of the faster than light state by the field. This could make it literally impossible to pass into Hyperspace until gravity is again at that near zero value. Just a side thought there. |
Gravity is a part of General Relativity (not Special which assumes gravity is not a significant factor). The gravity part of General Relativity does have time passage relativity like in Interstellar, but that only has a significant effect near very high-gravity giant stars and black holes. The thing about hyperspace travel being effected by gravity has nothing to do with real world physics and instead just has to do with the hand wave that is hyperspace. It's purpose was to reconcile the impossibility of FTL with Han Solo's statement in ANH, "Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" Solution? The other dimension of hyperspace allows FTL but realspace objects have a gravity shadow in hyperspace so they are still navigational concerns in another dimension. That's not at all relativity. That's just hand-waved gobbledegook about hyperspace.
| Quote: | | First my players are more familiar with TFA and Rebels, then any other Star Wars material. |
Are your players 13? I only ask because they had only seen Rebels and no live action films before seeing TFA.
| Quote: | | Solved that this last weekend, though I had them watch the theatrical release not the special editions so they saw what I saw when I was growing up. |
IMO they really should have watched the classic trilogy (if not all the films) before even seeing TFA. Their view of your game world was likely more skewed by the cartoon. My son started watching Star Wars cartoons before the films only because he was only 5 at the time and wasn't ready for the films.
| Quote: | | Successful does not mean good. Stephanie Myers author of the twilight series may be successful but reading those books, she is not a good writer. JJ Abrams knows how to tap into the younger generation using tried and true media hooks. If you know those hooks his work becomes instantly less impressive. He is not a writer so much as a technician re-purposing older material, specifically pulp fiction and pulp science fiction with a 'modern' skin... I am not generally entertained by any of the EU material and lean more towards the other Star Based Franchise but that material is not without it's flaws that only seem to grow worse as time passes. |
Indeed, successful does not mean good. Exactly my point. Successful is objective. "Good" is only subjective. I'm sure the Twilight lady has plenty of fans that think she is good (I've never read them or even seen the movies so I don't have an opinion on her/them). I think JJ is good, and I was born in the early 70s, a part of the original generation of Star Wars fans who saw the original movie in the theater. And I am a Star Trek fan since I first saw the entire TOS one summer in junior high (before seeing the first three films that had already been released at the time). I'm a fan of both the prime universe and the alternate reality (although I don't care for three of the prime movies, DS9 or Voyager). But I acknowledge that my opinions of what is good or bad are subjective, and I don't try to sell my opinions as objective facts.
| Quote: | | Honestly it would probably do the new generation of Science Fiction writers good to reread the classics. |
Agreed!
| Quote: | | Would we be having a real conversation if I said TFW sucks and did not give any specifics? By giving specifics I hope for you to see my point of view, whether you dismiss afterwards if fine but if you do not know where I am coming from how can you provide counterpoints to this issues I present? |
Saying "TFA sucks" would again come across like you are posing an opinion as an objective fact, which is trollish behavior. I would certainly be ok with you saying, "I didn't like it" without any specifics. As I said, opinions do not need supported. A simple statement of dissatisfaction would not at all come across like pointless bashing.
If you are not seeking solutions, then why are you posting all the lengthy criticisms? Now you speak as if your purpose was specifically for me or others to give "counterpoints" to all your bashing. That sounds a lot like an argument, and if you are trying to start them then that is trollish behavior I do not appreciate. "Real conversations" that go into such a great degree of negativity should have a constructive purpose, and if your purpose is only to argue, please cease and desist.
I'm not sure what you think this is, but I'm not here to try to sell TFA-haters on why TFA is not a bad movie. I am perfectly ok with you or anyone not liking the same things I do. I posted my possible solutions only to help anyone that may want to like the movie but have issues with it. If my "counterpoints" to your "points" aren't going to help you in any way, then it is rather pointless for you to bother with all your negative points in the first place. The only point of view I wondered about was why you set your game in the time of TFA, and you answered that (see below).
You say that you hope for us to see your point of view, but if your point of view is you hate TFA, why do you want to poke holes in it for everyone else? Do you want everyone else to hate it too? Would you derive some sort of pleasure out of us saying, "Wow, you're right. I never saw how stupid the whole movie is until you pointed it out to me. I enjoyed the movie before, but now I hate it like you do." ? Is that really what your goal is? That is not helping anyone. That is taking something away from someone. That is not constructive. If you can't be helped by solutions, and you only want others to agree with the reasons you hate the film, there is no constructive purpose to this "real conversation".
If you mean to have some other constructive purpose in this thread then I'm sorry that I'm still failing to see it.
| Quote: | | The thing is TFA suffers from several similar flaws but gets a pass why? Because it's Disney? Or because JJ Abrams? Or because we got to see Han Solo again? Or was it marketing tricks? If you removed all Star Wars references from TFA would we accept the movie on its own merit? |
I like TFA so it is not separated out from the other movies for me. All the movies are space fantasy, and they all equally "get a pass" because I like them. If I enjoy a movie, then I accept or devise explanations that work for me.
| Quote: | | Different can be good, new can be good, but if we are not honest about judging the new material on its merits and being honest about its flaws, then will we get less than we deserve, or worse by not showing any dissenting opinions we blindly accept an opinion crafted by marketers and media departments. |
I certainly don't blindly accept anything, and I strongly suspect that the other users of this forum don't either. If we like TFA, we like it. It is not objectively bad because there is no such thing. Your opinions of the movie are not facts. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it. Can't you just be happy for those of us that don't hate it?
| Quote: | Actually I do not have have the same galactic powers, the First Order does not exist in my rendition of the SWU. Instead of having the First Order, I have the Reformed Empire and the New Republic as the two major galactic powers with a League of Non Aligned Worlds and some Powerful Warlords from the Old Empire as major secondary powers. In the campaign the New Republic and Reformed Empire are in a stalemate in galactic positioning so they use hundreds of thousands of Clandestine Agents to engage in a shadow war trying to bring neutral systems and warlords to their side, as well as use espionage against each other in hopes of tipping the balance of power to their favor.
My New Republic is not sitting ideally by, allowing a known hostile entity to build up forces and work on super projects unchecked.
The reason for the time period selection is a few reasons. First my players are more familiar with TFA and Rebels, then any other Star Wars material. Second in the future the players do not have to play second fiddle to anyone. If the Reformed Empire has a spherical super weapon of doom with a convenient weak point to destroy, then they get to be the heroes to do that, without any fear their accomplishments being overshadowed by canon heroes. In the case of my players they are the new generation of Star Wars heroes. Lastly they want to see what I would have done If I was in charge of the new series, basically a put up or shut up challenge. |
That sounds awesome! I love it!
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Tinman
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Dec 2013
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Did you call it fred?? |
Nope, Grim. It seemed like a fitting enough name. We brought it aboard and just never got around to capitalizing on it as a sample of Charon biotechnology. It pretty much listlessly wandered around the ship and went though the motions of life without actually being alive (the medical computer was quite clear on that point.) A Jedi who worked with the Rebellion out of one of the sectors we did some work in had a look at it once, nearly got sick, and referred to it as an "abomination" and "corruption of the Force." We didn't see the problem though, it didn't smell or anything. |
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Rusharn
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Apr 2016
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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All my current players are under 25 and this their first foray into a non D&D / Pathfinder system or Warhammer 40K system.
| Quote: | | Saying "TFA sucks" would again come across like you are posing an opinion as an objective fact, which is trollish behavior. I would certainly be ok with you saying.... |
If you simply say you do not like something without any specifics your a troll. Giving your interpretations of the information presented makes you a troll. I am getting a little confused where you are going with this line of dialog. I am either free to give my opinion or not. If you wish to ignore it that is fine I do not need any validation on my opinions, if you wish to counter point what I am saying then post a counter point and we can discuss the technical and theatricial merits and flaws. There are indeed objectively bad movies. Birdemic and The Room come to mind off the top of my head. However there is nothing wrong with enjoying a bad movie, everyone has their favorite movie that they love that few others do. There is nothing wrong with enjoying something despite it's flaws.
If someone pointing out valid technical and story flaws ruins your enjoyment of a specific item of media then maybe your enjoyment was based on the experience of the viewing of the media verses the total quality of the item itself. Again there is nothing wrong with enjoying the experience of a movie that wasn't perfect, or even bad.
James Cameron's Avatar really had a poor story littered with plot holes, but I enjoyed the visual experience of seeing it in IMAX 3D.
If you honestly enjoy a movie or a book, someone pointing out the flaws and weaknesses of that piece of media will not lessen your enjoyment of that piece of media. You'll simply state that yeah you know about the flaws but you enjoy it anyway.
That being said, franchise movies I believe should be under increased scrutiny otherwise you'll find lower quality product being giving a pass just because it has the magical franchise name. Star Wars fans have a reputation for a fanatical support of the franchise, which is not to say that is bad, but corporations are out to make money and Disney is no exception. If fans send the message that they will accept lower quality media while still paying high prices, then they will go with the lower quality.
For me the visuals used in TFA is the source of my specific issue with my gaming group. A reason I have for disliking the movie happens to coincide with the one of issues of hyperspace travel presented in the FTA, its effect on the Star Wars universe and the perception of hyperspace travel it has given my players. Specifically hiding in hyperspace and Han Solo's radical maneuver of using hyperspace to bypass a planetary shield and drop out into the low atmosphere.
The first part of my question has been answered with in game tech and rules that can be presented to my group, with a line of possible countermeasures for said tactic so the group is on the same page with this aspect.
The second part of my question has not in my opinion been answered. So far the suggestions presented are that I can either hand wave it away or the possibility of being limited by skill, which in my last response is not an adequate reason for my style of play. In my response I showed how a well funded military think tank would be able to reach the skill levels of Han Solo for calculating a hyperspace jump through a planetary shield. While this vulnerability will probably be resolved if exploited in a large enough scale it is a vulnerability never the less. If Han can skip through a planetary shield, a military super power could come up with a hyperspace missile that could skip through a shield. Maybe this vulnerability has already been realized and could explain why there is a second planetary shield around Coruscant.
Also Han Solo comes out of hyperspace clearly in the atmosphere of the starkiller, so what keeps someone from jumping into hyperspace from the atmosphere of a planet as the gravity of the planet does not seem to physically effect hyperspace travel, only the actual intersection of matter causes an effect. It also doesn't make sense then on how gravity well generators could keep ship trapped in real space. If ships could escape by simply turning off the safety gravity detectors why wouldn't you tie them to a flip switch. That way you can make a jump even in a gravity field.
The RAW by WEG for mishaps makes it clear that interaction with an object in realspace is harmful to the vessel, but I am unaware of there being any rules as the size needed for the object in realspace to be able to cause this effect. From what is displayed in FTA the gases of an atmosphere is not concentrated enough to cause this effect.
I am leaning towards gravity actually breaks down the hyperspace tunnel if you cross one of sufficient strength, like that of a planet or a field created by a Gravity Well generator, and traps ships in real space until they can clear the gravity field. This would keep interdictors relevant and would keep the scenes of having to clear the planet before jumping to hyperspace allowing enemy fighters a chance to get a few shots of at players before they cam jump.
Once again forgive grammar and spelling as I am slipping this response in at breaks at work. |
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