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garhkal
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 Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 1:57 pm Post subject: Ab/dis energy, Physical - Kinetic force absorbed?? |
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Someone last night during our Marcon rogue gaming session, mentioned that he HAS seen some players try to argue the point that one SHOULD technically be allowed to use the Absorb-disappate energy force power, to absorb falls or brawling attacks, as Kinetic energy (physical!) is still technically a form of energy..
Who here has in the past ruled that way?
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thedemonapostle
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Rusharn
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| From my interpretation, it is radiation and heat type energy that can be absorbed, not kinetic energy. There are other powers that can help against falling (telekinesis) or brawling (Lightsaber combat) and it is my impression that the powers are intended to be a bit focused. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah:
It could be argued that those characters who survive deadly falls are using some variation of absorb/dissipate...
But it seems like the power was meant to deal with what the game considers "energy" as distinct from "physical" |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Wikipedia wrote: | | In physics, energy is a property of objects which can be transferred to other objects or converted into different forms. |
By that definition, then yes, it should be possible.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Wikipedia wrote: | | In physics, energy is a property of objects which can be transferred to other objects or converted into different forms. |
By that definition, then yes, it should be possible. |
Yes but the rule describes what types of energy it covers and doesn't mention kinetic energy from falling or or list off any examples of that. The Force power in RAW is an extrapolation of Vader absorbing Han's blaster bolts on Cloud City. If you are basing the question on the most probably intention of the RAW, then it seems clear it does not include kinetic energy from falling. The player is trying to apply real world technical dictionary definition of the English word "energy" to the game mechanical interpretation of a Force power in Star Wars when the most likely scenario is that the author of the Force power just didn't anticipate that someone would try to bend the rule in that direction when he named it.
I would probably just tell the rules lawyer "motion denied" and move on.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Seems i was not alone in thinking the person arguing for it to be allowed was full of it...
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:50 am Post subject: |
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On the other hand, how would you classify a power that was specifically to absorb kinetic energy... either eating slugthrowers or reducing damage from a fall. Would it be a separate Control power? Or an Alter Power? A Control/Alter power?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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If i allowed it, it would be a mix C/A power, that requires both TK and A/DE as pre-reqs..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | If i allowed it, it would be a mix C/A power, that requires both TK and A/DE as pre-reqs.. |
Why require an Alter component? If it works like absorbing a blaster bolt, you wouldn't be affecting the blaster bolt before it hit; you'd be absorbing the energy of the blaster bolt at the point of contact with your skin. The same would be true of the kinetic energy of a bullet.
Now, if you wanted to stop the bullet before it hits (ala Neo in the Matrix), I would definitely require an Alter component, and Sense as well; Alter for manipulating the Force outside of your own body, and Sense for perceiving something not visible to normal sight.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | By that definition, then yes, it should be possible. |
Yes but the rule describes what types of energy it covers and doesn't mention kinetic energy from falling or or list off any examples of that. |
The problem I have with this line of thought is that it smacks of WEG-centric dogmatism, as in "well, WEG placed these limitations, so that's all there is." I mean no offense by this, but I've seen enough questionable rulings by WEG to not take their word as an absolute.
I agree that there is no indicator in the films or in the RAW of Jedi being able to do this. However, it is well-established in the films that Jedi can impart kinetic energy to an object via telekinesis, with sufficient velocity to inflict damage to a target. To rule that a Jedi can manipulate kinetic energy unless he's actually touching the object being manipulated is, well, silly.
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Someone last night during our Marcon rogue gaming session, mentioned that he HAS seen some players try to argue the point that one SHOULD technically be allowed to use the Absorb-disappate energy force power, to absorb falls or brawling attacks, as Kinetic energy (physical!) is still technically a form of energy..
Who here has in the past ruled that way? |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Yes but the rule describes what types of energy it covers and doesn't mention kinetic energy from falling or or list off any examples of that. |
The problem I have with this line of thought is that it smacks of WEG-centric dogmatism, as in "well, WEG placed these limitations, so that's all there is." I mean no offense by this, but I've seen enough questionable rulings by WEG to not take their word as an absolute. |
You've misinterpreted my prior statements. The OP is not asking if Jedi should have a power that absorbs kinetic energy from falling. The OP is not speculating on possible house rules. The OP is clearly asking if any GMs here have "ruled" in favor of a player who says that the Absorb/Dissipate Energy Force Power in the RAW includes kinetic energy. This evokes the aspect of RPGs in which RAW is like a set of laws that the GM acts as judge over in cases where the law as written must be interpreted with respect to specific circumstance and applied in accordance with that judgement.
Discussing if the game should have that Force ability and devising modifications to RAW is not the same thing as merely interpreting RAW. See the difference? My earlier reply was clearly speaking to the original intention of RAW (as stated two sentences later than your quoted text of my post), which in my opinion does not include absorbing kinetic energy. The evidence supporting my assertion is that there is nothing in the existing power's description that indicates that. The player's "case" for kinetic energy is based solely on the dictionary definition of the word energy and doesn't at all consider precedents in the game or probable intention of the power's author. This wasn't a group of gamers discussing possible house rules for future use like we do here all the time. This question of RAW came up mid-session in a convention adventure where rules can not be altered. Rules as established for use in the game are only interpreted and applied at this point.
I'm not offended but you should know by now I'm not a stickler for RAW. I've been tweaking RAW in WEG Star Wars since 1988, which literally hundreds of my posts on this forum testify to. 8)
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Last edited by Whill on Wed May 18, 2016 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I'm not offended but you should know by now I'm not a stickler for RAW. I've been tweaking RAW in WEG Star Wars since 1988, which literally hundreds of my posts on this forum testify to. 8) |
Oh, I'm well aware. 
I would allow a player to Ab/Dis kinetic energy on the basis of the following:1). The literal definition of energy, as quoted above.
2). The fact that Jedi can manipulate kinetic energy via telekinesis. Telekinesis and kinetic even share the same root word: kinetikos, the Greek word for movement.
3). I find the easiest approach to making a power do something that can plausibly be connected to it (see 1 & 2) is to modify an existing RAW power to suit the needs of the game. In this case, simply rule that Absorb/Dissipate Energy can be used against any solid or impact attacks at the same difficulty required to absorb a blaster bolt.
4). Personally, I find this to be a far more "Star-Warsy" option than, say, Lesser Force Shield, which seems more like a badly converted D&D spell than anything that truly belongs in the SWU.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | If i allowed it, it would be a mix C/A power, that requires both TK and A/DE as pre-reqs.. |
Why require an Alter component? If it works like absorbing a blaster bolt, you wouldn't be affecting the blaster bolt before it hit; you'd be absorbing the energy of the blaster bolt at the point of contact with your skin. The same would be true of the kinetic energy of a bullet.
Now, if you wanted to stop the bullet before it hits (ala Neo in the Matrix), I would definitely require an Alter component, and Sense as well; Alter for manipulating the Force outside of your own body, and Sense for perceiving something not visible to normal sight. |
If yo note people with bullet proof vests often still get broken ribs.. So their armor takes the brunt of the impact, but the kinetic blow STILL damages them. Hence i see the A part of it as being like the vest while the Cont part as being the dampening of the kinetic energy still imparted into the body..
| CRMcNeill wrote: |
I would allow a player to Ab/Dis kinetic energy on the basis of the following |
So IYO someone with high enough control is pretty much impervious to ever getting damaged, whether by blaster, or brawl..??
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:29 am Post subject: |
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If we are going BY RAW, with the only modification being that the power can be used against kinetic energy, we also have to interpret one more part of the rule (which applies to energized attacks, as well):
The power says that it must be activated BEFORE the attack hits.
After thinking about it some, I kinda think the intent was to prevent the power from being used as a reaction, and rather "raised" in anticipation of being shot at.
If this is so, it severely hampers the usefulness of the power (especially against the likes of force lightning, for example), but it does address your concern about Jedi becomimg impervious. |
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