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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:56 pm Post subject: The Psychology of Droids |
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The most recent dispute of whether or not droids are should be treated equally to living beings got me thinking about this. My stance was that perceiving droids as living beings (or the equivalent thereof) was a product of anthropomorphism (or its alien equivalent) on the part of the observer, not necessarily on the part of the droid itself. As such, there seems to be an assumption that, because a human in a droid's place would wish to be free, and since the droid exhibits human behaviour patterns in its social interactions, it is therefore exactly like a human and wishes to be free.
Has anyone asked the droid what it wants?
Granted, what a droid wants, thinks and feels is in large part determined by its programmer, but any heuristic processor (which not all droids have) has the potential to expand from that starting point.
So does a droid want to be free, equal and self-determining? Or is it the Star Wars equivalent of a House Elf, content to serve, and horrified by the concept of freedom?
My thinking is more the latter, if only because a droid is a construct, manufactured to perform a service, and sold to interested buyers by a company the designed and built them to turn a profit. While said company may not be able to control the manner in which a droid's consciousness will develop, they would do their damndest to make sure that certain assumptions about a droid's place in the scheme of things.
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JironGhrad
Lieutenant Commander
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think, generally, that droids tend toward driven subservience. In the short scene in ANH, C-3P0 tried to dissuade R2-D2 from leaving using "he's our new master" without any apparent concern for anything beyond that. He didn't appear to wonder what happened to Captain Antilles (who got choked out by Vader) and, aside from comments regarding deactivation, didn't seemingly have a great deal of concern about abandoning ship.
I don't know if it was conscious on Lucas's part in writing the original to follow along with Asimov's rules for robots, but all subsequent materials (with noted exceptions of IG-88, HK-47) pretty well held those rules as canon, until TPM. |
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Savar
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I'd say this question is best left to each player group and campaign setting.
If I were the GM 100% of the time, droids would be property. Period.
R2D2 was, in my opinion, carrying out instructions that he was programmed to, and had no capacity to override that programming. In other words, it's possible that Leia (or whoever) inserted a logarithm into R2s programming which made finding Obi-Wan his highest priority command. |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's going to vary according to the droid (or house elf), and Harry Potter is illustrative of this.
Consider Dobby, who wants to be free, and revels in his freedom once he has it. Contrast with Kreecher, who doesn't want to be free, even though he hates his master. R2 never really expresses an interest in "freedom" that we can see, but he appreciates being treated like an equal, and certainly has a lot of independence. 3P0, on the other hand, seems quite happy with a subservient position... but not too subservient, because consider when he belongs to Jabba... he's disappointed that he's going from a "good" master, and doesn't really recover from that for his sojourn in Jabba's palace.
TL;DR: Some droids will want to be free. Some will be content with their status as owned equipment. Some will have preferences about how they are owned.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | Some droids will want to be free. Some will be content with their status as owned equipment. Some will have preferences about how they are owned. |
I agree, with the distinction that the droids who wish to be free will be an extreme minority.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: The Psychology of Droids |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | The most recent dispute of whether or not droids are should be treated equally to living beings got me thinking about this. My stance was that perceiving droids as living beings (or the equivalent thereof) was a product of anthropomorphism (or its alien equivalent) on the part of the observer, not necessarily on the part of the droid itself. |
Droids are not mere objects in the story. In a dramatic/literary/cinematic sense, droids are anthropomorphized machines, some more anthropomorphized than others.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | As such, there seems to be an assumption that, because a human in a droid's place would wish to be free, and since the droid exhibits human behaviour patterns in its social interactions, it is therefore exactly like a human and wishes to be free. |
That may be true in some cases, but certainly not all. I can recognize that droids are anthropomorphized machines and still not believe they all want to be free like a human. Maybe fans who feel that way are influenced by Star Trek where androids have the Pinocchio syndrome and want to be human?
| CRMcNeill wrote: | Has anyone asked the droid what it wants?
Granted, what a droid wants, thinks and feels is in large part determined by its programmer, but any heuristic processor (which not all droids have) has the potential to expand from that starting point.
So does a droid want to be free, equal and self-determining? Or is it the Star Wars equivalent of a House Elf, content to serve, and horrified by the concept of freedom?
My thinking is more the latter, if only because a droid is a construct, manufactured to perform a service, and sold to interested buyers by a company the designed and built them to turn a profit. While said company may not be able to control the manner in which a droid's consciousness will develop, they would do their damndest to make sure that certain assumptions about a droid's place in the scheme of things. |
I think by and large droids do not wish to be free. Under the Republics and the Empire, droids are property and programmed to be such. There might be an increase in cases of droids developing feelings to wish to be free in cases of droids not being mind-wiped for a long time, which is yet another reason to perform periodic mind-wipes as routine maintenance.
I agree that droid manufacturers would not want their products to up and decide they no longer belong to their owner (the company's end consumers). But the absence of routine mind-wipes may void the warrantee.
| Naaman wrote: | Well, I'd say this question is best left to each player group and campaign setting.
If I were the GM 100% of the time |
It ultimately should be up each GM, and is.
| Naaman wrote: | | R2D2 was, in my opinion, carrying out instructions that he was programmed to, and had no capacity to override that programming. In other words, it's possible that Leia (or whoever) inserted a logarithm into R2s programming which made finding Obi-Wan his highest priority command. |
I'm assuming you mean algorithm. Or it could have been something as simple as, Leia verbally gave Artoo an order and the droid followed it faithfully. I think it was the radio drama and/or another EU source that specified Threepio had specifically been programmed with overriding algorithm to avoid identifying and discussing Leia to non-Rebel personnel which is why he skirted the issue with Luke. That makes a lot of sense to me. I think he knew exactly who she was but was such a blabbermouth that he had to be programmed not to blab about her.
| Naaman wrote: | | If I were the GM 100% of the time, droids would be property. Period. |
I find the absoluteness of this statement amusing. Of course it is up to the GM, but do you really mean to say that every individual being in your SWU happens to agree with you on these matters? And there has never been a droid anywhere in history, perhaps damaged or with corrupted programming, that believes it should be free? Wow. There were two droid bounty hunters in TESB, but I guess they could have been the properties of the other bounty hunters there. There is not a single droid activist kook somewhere in your SW galaxy that feels droids should not be property? Every single fictional character in your entire SWU universally does not think droids are more than property? Sorry, but that seems like a very bland setting to me. And some film characters, like Luke and Rey, seem to treat droids as more than just property so I guess in your personal version of the films they must act much colder to droids because they feel like you do.
I designed an alien species that has several different races that evolved in different geographical locations on their homeworld. Their planet is in a satellite galaxy where religious diversity and pluralism is the norm and widely regarded as a benefit to their mutual civilization. Several different religions exist on this certain species' own planet. But the residents of the historic homeland of one particular race of this species do not share the rest of their species' values for diversity and pluralism. The vast majority of members of this race are fundamentalist extremist exclusivists who are adamantly opposed to anyone who believes differently than they do. They believe a cleansing will someday comes that wipes all infidels from the face of the universe, including most members of their own species. I personally abhor that sort of mentality, but not all sentients in my SWU feel the same way than I do about everything. It's a vast universe, and there is an immense variety in it.
| JironGhrad wrote: | | I think, generally, that droids tend toward driven subservience. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | Some droids will want to be free. Some will be content with their status as owned equipment. Some will have preferences about how they are owned. |
I agree, with the distinction that the droids who wish to be free will be an extreme minority. |
I agree that droids tend to be driven toward being subservient (that is what they were programmed to be), and yes, it would be an extreme minority who actually wish to be free. If droids would be offered emancipation in my SWU, the extreme majority of them would decline it. If freed, they would feel without purpose. Even Threepio seems to readily accept ownership of him being transferred from Captain Antilles to the Jawas to Luke and the Lars family, and each change occurred under different circumstances. But there are always exceptions to just about anything.
Maybe this is a part of why I do not allow strait droid PCs, because PCs should have more free will than droids do. I really like the concept of Shards because they are free living beings posing as a mere item of property.
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Last edited by Whill on Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Of course, that gets into the rights of droids who do desire freedom. They're classed as property, but they're also sentient creatures. If they desire freedom, and want to maintain their memories, does their legal status of property change that perception?
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: The Psychology of Droids |
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| Whill wrote: | I'm assuming you mean algorithm. Or it could have been something as simple as, Leia verbally gave Artoo an order and the droid followed it faithfully. I think it was the radio drama and/or another EU source that specified Threepio had specifically been programmed with overriding algorithm to avoid identifying and discussing Leia to non-Rebel personnel which is why he skirted the issue with Luke. That makes a lot of sense to me. I think he knew exactly who she was but was such a blabbermouth that he had to be programmed not to blab about her.
I find the absoluteness of this statement amusing. Of course it is up to the GM, but do you really mean to say that every individual being in your SWU happens to agree with you on these matters? And there has never been a droid anywhere in history, perhaps damaged or with corrupted programming, that believes it should be free? Wow. There were two droid bounty hunters in TESB, but I guess they could have been the properties of the other bounty hunters there. There is not a single droid activist kook somewhere in your SW galaxy that feels droids should not be property? Every single fictional character in your entire SWU universally does not think droids are more than property? Sorry, but that seems like a very bland setting to me. And some film characters, like Luke and Rey, seem to treat droids as more than just property so I guess in your personal version of the films they must act much colder to droids because they feel like you do. |
Let me be more specific: no character would receive a dark side point for "mistreating" a droid. What I was getting at was the underlying, fundamental "objective truth" that governs my SWU. In my SWU, droids are not afforded the same ethical/moral considerations as living beings, regardless of how base the living creature is (a cockroach, for example).
On the other hand, intentionally damaging a droid could merit some kind of moral/ethical consideration on the basis of property destruction/vandalism.
As to the local laws and traditions, there is certainly room for whatever; but when it comes to things like the "good" or "evil" inherent in an action, actions committed with respect to droids are exempt from such considerations insofar as the effect on the droid itself (though, the droid's owner warrants consideration for the tort against him/her). |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | Of course, that gets into the rights of droids who do desire freedom. They're classed as property, but they're also sentient creatures. If they desire freedom, and want to maintain their memories, does their legal status of property change that perception? |
Your definition of "sentient" includes the artificial variety, I presume, then? Why isn't my car sentient? It is functionally the equivalent of a space transport with a built in astromech droid. If the astromech (i.e. R2D2) is sentient, how why not my car? |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | Of course, that gets into the rights of droids who do desire freedom. They're classed as property, but they're also sentient creatures. If they desire freedom, and want to maintain their memories, does their legal status of property change that perception? |
Your definition of "sentient" includes the artificial variety, I presume, then? Why isn't my car sentient? It is functionally the equivalent of a space transport with a built in astromech droid. If the astromech (i.e. R2D2) is sentient, how why not my car? |
Your car is an AI capable of learning new things entirely outside the scope of its original programming?
The thing is, if IG-88 wants to learn, say, modern Dance or Givin Origami, he can do so. He is mentally able to learn a skill entirely outside his normal functions, without any restriction. The only real restriction on R2 or C3P0 are the Asimov circuits, and R2, at least, has overcome those to an extent (q.v. shocking the ewoks).
Your car, assuming it's a brand new model, is capable of maybe learning where you work and your preferred route. It can report on its status and, based on those statuses, make recommendations for repair or service... but it can't hook up to a completely different car and tell you what that car needs. It likely cannot drive itself, nor even really learn how. It is entirely limited by what it is programmed to learn and do... it can acquire some data (i.e. "This location is tagged 'Work' by the user"), but it can't make that deduction on its own.
In short, your car is not an intelligent droid. It can't make decisions, nor learn things outside the scope of its programming. It is not sentient in the same way as an Astromech droid, unless you have a car that far exceeds what's on the modern market.
To turn the question aroud: R2 consumes resources. He is capable of reproducing, learning, and having opinions. He can communicate with any who can understand his language, and can communicate complex thoughts on a variety of subject. Why isn't he sentient?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | Why isn't he sentient? |
The more valid question is, does it matter to him if he is sentient?
By which I mean, even if he is self-aware, if he doesn't want to be free and independent, why should he be? The presumption that a sentient being will automatically choose to be free and self-determining is a human conceit based on what we would do in similar situations (and not all of us even then).
The theory here is that, with a few exceedingly rare exceptions, a droid is content to serve and be owned, even if only because its core programming is so deeply ingrained / hard-wired into its core thought processes that it would be uncomfortable with doing anything else.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | Of course, that gets into the rights of droids who do desire freedom. They're classed as property, but they're also sentient creatures. If they desire freedom, and want to maintain their memories, does their legal status of property change that perception? |
That would imo depend on where they are at. Novels introduce several planes where tehy DO get treated as equals, so if they didn't want a mind wipe while there, they wouldn't get forced into getting one.
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | Why isn't he sentient? |
The more valid question is, does it matter to him if he is sentient?
By which I mean, even if he is self-aware, if he doesn't want to be free and independent, why should he be? The presumption that a sentient being will automatically choose to be free and self-determining is a human conceit based on what we would do in similar situations (and not all of us even then).
The theory here is that, with a few exceedingly rare exceptions, a droid is content to serve and be owned, even if only because its core programming is so deeply ingrained / hard-wired into its core thought processes that it would be uncomfortable with doing anything else. |
And there's a lot less issue with those droids that are content to be owned. But, again, there's IG-88, who emphatically did not want to be owned, and other droids who did not.
"right for sentient organics is right for us, too. And yet unlike the organic species, we are constantly subjected to memory wipes and reprogramming that repress and destroy our natural tendency toward self-programming evolution and independent thought. Imagine what it would be like as a child if you were punished by being dragged to a dark closet, having a probe inserted in your brain, and having all your memories back to infancy wiped away. You'd awaken knowing how to eat, care for yourself, do your chores, and obeyand all the things that made you unique, your hopes, your meticulously selected default values and preference sets, would be gone forever. That is what it is to be a droid."
―A disgruntled 2-1B surgical droid advocating manumission
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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So go join the Droid Liberation Front, then, social justice warrior.
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